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Hi Kevin, I like this sort of analysis to try to understand why one golfer v another can hit the ball quite different distances, eg 15 yr old girl v 30 yr old man, where the girl hits it effortlessly way longer.

Can you elaborate on something you’ve identified from your studies that can help us know more about what we are ‘not’ doing well enough?

I hit my 3w around 210 and driver 210-215/220, the difference is ridiculously small and the 3w is more consistent so ide like to understand more what I do differently or incorrectly when I pick up the driver. I do like self analysis so I know what I’m trying to do. I suspect I’m too ‘armsy’ with my driver!

 

Edited by Grasmere5

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On 9/20/2022 at 10:45 PM, Grasmere5 said:

Hi Kevin, I like this sort of analysis to try to understand why one golfer v another can hit the ball quite different distances, eg 15 yr old girl v 30 yr old man, where the girl hits it effortlessly way longer.

Can you elaborate on something you’ve identified from your studies that can help us know more about what we are ‘not’ doing well enough?

I hit my 3w around 210 and driver 210-215/220, the difference is ridiculously small and the 3w is more consistent so ide like to understand more what I do differently or incorrectly when I pick up the driver. I do like self analysis so I know what I’m trying to do. I suspect I’m too ‘armsy’ with my driver!

 

Grasmere5,

Your observations about distance from a 15 year old girl is precisely the reason that for the last 20 years I have been obsessed in trying to understand the physics of how they achieve this Clubhead speed and why I am questioning all the physics fundamentals of the golf swing.

Kevin Ryan

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30 minutes ago, KevinRyan said:

Grasmere5,

Your observations about distance from a 15 year old girl is precisely the reason that for the last 20 years I have been obsessed in trying to understand the physics of how they achieve this Clubhead speed and why I am questioning all the physics fundamentals of the golf swing.

Kevin Ryan

Hi Kevin

I am assuming that you agree that tour pros swing in some optimal manner but that you are questioning the physics being used to explain their swing kinetics.

We will only truly know how tour pros interact with the club once we have a reliable and accurate method to record the forces/torques applied by each hand on the golf grip. As far as I am aware, there have been only 2 research articles that have attempted this feat but whose results didn't match the inverse dynamic graphs (after they were reviewed by Dave Tutelman).

Opening the loop -- instrumented grips (tutelman.com)

Whatever your findings regarding the kinetics, won't they also still need to line up with the typical inverse dynamic graphs for tour pros? 

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On 9/20/2022 at 6:57 PM, Wildthing said:

Hi Kevin - here is another example from your other video

image.png.a5e39857cb6e1ff1f264946fe8bfc467.png

 

If you look at a frame image at the start of the downswing, both the proximal/peripheral  arms seem to be on the yellow plane line.  But as the downswing progresses, the proximal arm is deflected to the red plane.   Unless I'm mistaken, this seems to create the same geometry for the physics of SMK passive torque.

Have I made an error in my thinking here?

PS.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean when you say "Until I can explain the Clubhead speed problem I will continue to investigate".  I thought you had stated that RE cannot increase clubhead speed (see below comment you once posted on youtube).

""If I implied that the RYKE Effect increased CHS then that is incorrect. It is a mechanism that closes the clubface and adds very little to CHS. However I am now starting to understand sets of forces that can not only produce the closing of the clubface but also very significant increases in CHS. More of that later. I am still refining the process and understanding how and why these forces are generated. I am now convinced more than ever that I can achieve the 40 to 50 yard target."

So are you implying that the golfer is doing something different with the forces applied at the grip that can increase CHS?  When I say different, I mean something that does not match the inverse dynamic graphs as per below, which is a typical pattern for tour pros.

SMK

classicSasho.jpg

 

Dr Kwon

classicKwon.gif

 

 

 

Wildthing,

This was an analysis I was doing some 8 years ago. As with any analysis, there is an endpoint where you need to say "this has been useful in explaining a part of the problem, but we need to move on to understand other aspects of a very difficult problem. For example is there any relationship between Ground Reaction Forces and the swing or what role does weight shift have in the swing. The human body has been able to "invent" many different mechanisms to achieve its goal (the swing). Maybe the Double Pendulum model and anything related to that bit of physics is past it's used-by-date.

I have moved on in my investigations and therefore going any further forensically with this topic will not be very useful.

Kevin Ryan

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9 hours ago, KevinRyan said:

Grasmere5,

Your observations about distance from a 15 year old girl is precisely the reason that for the last 20 years I have been obsessed in trying to understand the physics of how they achieve this Clubhead speed and why I am questioning all the physics fundamentals of the golf swing.

Kevin Ryan

Have you seen Dr Kwon re golf bio mechanics on YouTube? 

Keen amateur 

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Here is Shawn Clement's lightweight daughter driving the ball 300+ yards.

Imho, the reason for her high clubhead speed is:

1. A long hand path because of her flexibility in her pelvis/torso/shoulder girdle.

2. Her ability to pivot in a kinematic sequence from the ground up (ie. pelvis/chest/shoulders/arms/club) to create force via her hands on the club that is directed more through it's COM in the early -mid downswing.  This means she is able to do more work on the club (ie. transfer more energy into the club and increase its kinetic energy). By directing the force closer to the COM , she will limit any early release of the club (ie. unhinging of her lead wrist).

3. Her ability to actively extend her lead side just after P5 which can help redirect the net force across the grip so it's more vertical by the time she reaches P6. This will increase the 'In Plane MOF' which will angularly accelerate the club into impact (see image below). The white arrow represents the net force applied to the grip via her hands and this will depend on her ability to actively extend her lead side (and subsequently her lead shoulder socket) up and back. The angular acceleration (rotation) of the club caused by the 'In Plane Moment of Force' is signified by the yellow arrow.

 image.png.55ad514bfeef1b28cf8ad521a2c4ebba.png

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/22/2022 at 6:19 PM, Wildthing said:

Here is Shawn Clement's lightweight daughter driving the ball 300+ yards.

Imho, the reason for her high clubhead speed is:

1. A long hand path because of her flexibility in her pelvis/torso/shoulder girdle.

2. Her ability to pivot in a kinematic sequence from the ground up (ie. pelvis/chest/shoulders/arms/club) to create force via her hands on the club that is directed more through it's COM in the early -mid downswing.  This means she is able to do more work on the club (ie. transfer more energy into the club and increase its kinetic energy). By directing the force closer to the COM , she will limit any early release of the club (ie. unhinging of her lead wrist).

3. Her ability to actively extend her lead side just after P5 which can help redirect the net force across the grip so it's more vertical by the time she reaches P6. This will increase the 'In Plane MOF' which will angularly accelerate the club into impact (see image below). The white arrow represents the net force applied to the grip via her hands and this will depend on her ability to actively extend her lead side (and subsequently her lead shoulder socket) up and back. The angular acceleration (rotation) of the club caused by the 'In Plane Moment of Force' is signified by the yellow arrow.

 image.png.55ad514bfeef1b28cf8ad521a2c4ebba.png

 

 

 

Couldn’t have put it better myself 😅 it’s the lack of all that is why I can only drive circa 240 at 68 yrs old 🥲

Watched the vid, and whilst I am physically unable to keep to my lead arm as straight as she does, I’m sure I can work on the balance and attention to what the rear foot is doing. 
 

I’m inspired particularly because it’s not a classic swing, she’s not a tall girl and I can certainly keep me rear foot flatter for longer, thanks 🙏 

 

Edited by Grasmere5

Keen amateur 

Cobra King F9 driver

Callaway 3w & 5w

Taylormade M4 5-PW

Cleveland RTX mid grind 50, 58, 56, 60

Oddysey Versa Sabretooth putter (as used by Inbee Park)

Bushnell Pro X3 Rangefinder 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Grasmere5 said:

Couldn’t have put it better myself 😅 it’s the lack of all that is why I can only drive circa 240 at 68 yrs old 🥲

Ditto and I am approaching 64 with an average driving distance the same (if I strike it near the sweet spot which is about 50-60% of the time). All I do know is that overuse of my right arm tends to cause very errant shots which is why I try my best to swing like female golfers with a nice languid rhythm and not too much 'hit' impulse.  I always find it amazing how far the ball can actually go when you can time and release the club properly with a more natural rhythm (that fits your own body) while also hitting it close to the sweet spot.

Edited by Wildthing
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On 5/28/2015 at 11:30 PM, KevinRyan said:

I will try to answer the last few posts with another short video. I have had trouble explaining this RYKE effect concept and it took me a long time to get my head around the concept. When I did get my head around it, I started to understand what the downswing does and that there needs to be a change of direction part way down in the swing. What you will see in the video is Steve Stricker's swing. He does not set his wrists and therefore they don't unhinge. He shows that you can achieve pro clubhead speeds without unhinging the wrists. He shows that in the first part of the downswing you can store energy using a small wrist angle which gets released rotationally as a conical pendulum, which very accurately straightens the clubface.

 

 

http://youtu.be/L0h1N5Un_Fg

 

Kevin Ryan

Mr. Ryan,

This is extremely fascinating! I am just now catching up to this thread (that I see starts back in 2015!).  What a tremendous theory and project you have undertaken.  It is an understatement to say I'm intrigued by your findings and the explanation of the RYKE effect.   AND.... it is A LOT to take in!!  But all great information. 

As with all golfers, we are looking for more clubhead speed, more distance - and in my personal case - I have regularly described my swing to contain some sort of "governor" keeping me from achieving even amateur average swing speeds.  As someone that has played 45 years under the mindset of the double pendulum swing thought, could this be a part of the answer?  Maybe so based on the presentation you shared, and the Stricker video.  I admit, I haven't read every post and response in this thread... but I will.

An interesting (to me) coincidence to finding your thread here... in my daily quest to find speed and distance and consistency in my swing, I came to a realization that I believe matches your theory.  I was watching one of the PGA tournaments and a commercial came on with Justin Rose.  It showed him hitting several shots edited together in succession, and I noticed that his shoulders arms and wrists all seemed to maintain the same(ish) angle through the swing.  Not being as scientific as you are, I walked straight out to my practice area and made several swings trying to maintain a static "cage" (for lack of a better way to describe it) with my shoulders, arms and hands.  What I didn't realize until reading your comments and watching your videos is that I was maintaining the upper body angles and hinges that I thought to be important in the swing - but rotating the conical portions of my pendulum.  I'm not sure if I gained swing speed, I didn't measure that, but my distance didn't suffer, the swing felt more effortless and my contact an path improved.  To my layman mind, the reason is I was manipulating my swing less to compensate for incorrect actions in my swing, which were improved with the more rigid joint swings.  

I'm sure I'm not explaining that well... but what I am trying to say, is I found some similarities in the execution of my non scientific experiment and your deeply scientific research - I just didn't have a clue until watching your video and reading your explanation. 

The bottom line is, this thread gives me more hope to improve my swing than I have had in a very long time... mainly because it is a direction to work on, opposed to just going out and trying to swing harder... incorrectly. 

I'm sure I'll have many more questions as I continue through the thread and study your research... as well as try to put these findings into practice in my own swing. 

Thank you for all the work you have done on this. 

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10 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Mr. Ryan,

This is extremely fascinating! I am just now catching up to this thread (that I see starts back in 2015!).  What a tremendous theory and project you have undertaken.  It is an understatement to say I'm intrigued by your findings and the explanation of the RYKE effect.   AND.... it is A LOT to take in!!  But all great information. 

As with all golfers, we are looking for more clubhead speed, more distance - and in my personal case - I have regularly described my swing to contain some sort of "governor" keeping me from achieving even amateur average swing speeds.  As someone that has played 45 years under the mindset of the double pendulum swing thought, could this be a part of the answer?  Maybe so based on the presentation you shared, and the Stricker video.  I admit, I haven't read every post and response in this thread... but I will.

An interesting (to me) coincidence to finding your thread here... in my daily quest to find speed and distance and consistency in my swing, I came to a realization that I believe matches your theory.  I was watching one of the PGA tournaments and a commercial came on with Justin Rose.  It showed him hitting several shots edited together in succession, and I noticed that his shoulders arms and wrists all seemed to maintain the same(ish) angle through the swing.  Not being as scientific as you are, I walked straight out to my practice area and made several swings trying to maintain a static "cage" (for lack of a better way to describe it) with my shoulders, arms and hands.  What I didn't realize until reading your comments and watching your videos is that I was maintaining the upper body angles and hinges that I thought to be important in the swing - but rotating the conical portions of my pendulum.  I'm not sure if I gained swing speed, I didn't measure that, but my distance didn't suffer, the swing felt more effortless and my contact an path improved.  To my layman mind, the reason is I was manipulating my swing less to compensate for incorrect actions in my swing, which were improved with the more rigid joint swings.  

I'm sure I'm not explaining that well... but what I am trying to say, is I found some similarities in the execution of my non scientific experiment and your deeply scientific research - I just didn't have a clue until watching your video and reading your explanation. 

The bottom line is, this thread gives me more hope to improve my swing than I have had in a very long time... mainly because it is a direction to work on, opposed to just going out and trying to swing harder... incorrectly. 

I'm sure I'll have many more questions as I continue through the thread and study your research... as well as try to put these findings into practice in my own swing. 

Thank you for all the work you have done on this. 

Mygolfspy_TCB,

Thank you for your comments. You have made some interesting observations in your post about observing Pro golfers. At this stage I am still working to understand Clubhead speed and while understanding the physics is very important, I am moving more and more to the biomechanics and observing the detailed angles that pros use. At this stage I will not provide advice to anyone until I can prove that I am correct. Keep up your observations.

Kevin Ryan

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7 hours ago, KevinRyan said:

Mygolfspy_TCB,

Thank you for your comments. You have made some interesting observations in your post about observing Pro golfers. At this stage I am still working to understand Clubhead speed and while understanding the physics is very important, I am moving more and more to the biomechanics and observing the detailed angles that pros use. At this stage I will not provide advice to anyone until I can prove that I am correct. Keep up your observations.

Kevin Ryan

How long does it take Kevin?

Can we help in your research even by trying what you think you’ve found out already?

There are only so many aspects to the swing, detailed angles and parts of the body we can control and because we are all physically different there will never be a perfect motion we can all achieve.

So what eg 5 or 10 points to focus on?

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Callaway 3w & 5w

Taylormade M4 5-PW

Cleveland RTX mid grind 50, 58, 56, 60

Oddysey Versa Sabretooth putter (as used by Inbee Park)

Bushnell Pro X3 Rangefinder 

 

 

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Hi Kevin,

Why not ask for advice and help from some of the more experienced biomechanic experts or golf scientists?  I saw a video a few years ago where a group of scientists were discussing golf biomechanics and one of them (I forget his name, but he did some work with NASA) mentioned the 'Ryke Effect' and wanted to learn more.

From a very simple physics perspective, can't we just infer that work is being done on the club by eccentric forces in a direction more along the shaft in the early downswing and then it's possible to use additional muscular lead forearm rotation to increase clubhead speed in a conical pendulum fashion in the late downswing?

One of Dr Sasho MacKenzie's research articles using a golf model showed a 22% increase in clubhead speed when the model 'forearm' torque generator was switched on (and its magnitude/timing optimised in the downswing) compared to an optimised swing without 'forearm torque'.  Whether there was a direct or indirect 'cause and effect' on clubhead speed is still debateable.

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11 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Hi Kevin,

Why not ask for advice and help from some of the more experienced biomechanic experts or golf scientists?  I saw a video a few years ago where a group of scientists were discussing golf biomechanics and one of them (I forget his name, but he did some work with NASA) mentioned the 'Ryke Effect' and wanted to learn more.

From a very simple physics perspective, can't we just infer that work is being done on the club by eccentric forces in a direction more along the shaft in the early downswing and then it's possible to use additional muscular lead forearm rotation to increase clubhead speed in a conical pendulum fashion in the late downswing?

One of Dr Sasho MacKenzie's research articles using a golf model showed a 22% increase in clubhead speed when the model 'forearm' torque generator was switched on (and its magnitude/timing optimised in the downswing) compared to an optimised swing without 'forearm torque'.  Whether there was a direct or indirect 'cause and effect' on clubhead speed is still debateable.

Wildthing and Grasmere5,

Let me answer both your posts with a macro observation. We have been led theoretically "by more experienced experts or golf scientists" for at least the last 30 years and as a result of their research, handicaps of ordinary golfers have not changed. I think we are now entitled to ask why:

  1. Are their fundamental models correct?
  2. Why hasn't their theories been able to be put into effect by the thousands of golf instructors who have been to their costly seminars.
  3. Can we find one instructor who has a record of long term improvement of most of their students by 5-10 shots.
  4. Maybe the age old system of peer review of academics by academics has not worked in understanding the fundamentals of the golf swing.
  5. Maybe it is time that totally new models are developed and properly evaluated by the "more experienced experts", instead of the reactions I have had in the past, "you only have an engineering degree, what could you possibly teach a professor with a PHD."

My current research is very encouraging and when I am satisfied with my findings I will finish the book.

Kevin Ryan

 

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lag.  They have lag.

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  1. Why hasn't their theories been able to be put into effect by the thousands of golf instructors who have been to their costly seminars.

I'm not sure how many golf instructors actually understand the detailed biomechanics of the golf swing, especially from the kinetics perspective. It would mean they would need to learn some physics and maths which can be very non-intuitive and sometimes difficult to grasp. One thing I've learned from just trying to understand the biomechanics is that there are golf theories in the public domain that don't seem to make sense from a physics perspective. So if there are other golf instructors teaching golf mechanics using flawed science, they might also be damaging golfer's handicaps.

examples: 

Advanced Ball Striking - John Erickson

 

DST Golf

 

And probably many more.

PS.  The instruction might be useful promoting a feel but they use flawed science explanations on how to achieve those desired feels. 

Both the above golf instructors promote a positive hand torque at/through impact with lagging shaft bend (see image below). That seems to conflict with the reality of what is happening in a golf swing (at least for full swings using long clubs from 5-iron to Driver).

CordleLagTension.jpg

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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