Launch angle question

[superduper]

I just been fitted yesterday (driver).   I finally fixed my swing and swinging inside out.   But my LM data is a bit unusual:

 

Ball speed: 130 (dropped a lot from 138)

Smash Factor: 1.45

LA (v): 21 degree (why is it so high)

back Spin: 2700 - 3000 rpm

Carry: 220 yard (my carry stays the same despite of a drop in the ball speed)

 

I have been practicing a lot in the last couple weeks in order to swing from the inside.  I had an out to in swing path that caused a slice (not push).   I have a smoother tempo (thanks to 3bays gsa pro), my tempo is now 3:1 ratio.  Pretty good.   But I lost a lot of swing speed, from 95 Mph to 87 Mph.  But my launch angle jumps from 16 degree to 21 degree?   Is it too high?       

[hckymeyer]

Short answer, yes and no.  It's higher than most people typically look for, but it does actually do a pretty good job of maximizing your distance.  If you play in windy conditions though it might end up hurting you on some shots.

 

Here is a link to the Flightscope trajectory optimizer.  You can put in your numbers and then play around with things like launch angle and spin to see what the maximum distance is you can get out of your swing speed. 

 

http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

[BK in TEXAS]

Short answer, yes and no.  It's higher than most people typically look for, but it does actually do a pretty good job of maximizing your distance.  If you play in windy conditions though it might end up hurting you on some shots.

 

 

Exactly.  A 20Ëš launch angle with 87mph swing is probably right where you want it. I'd bet if you can keep that launch angle and lower the spin rate you'll be spot on.

[superduper]

Short answer, yes and no.  It's higher than most people typically look for, but it does actually do a pretty good job of maximizing your distance.  If you play in windy conditions though it might end up hurting you on some shots.

 

Here is a link to the Flightscope trajectory optimizer.  You can put in your numbers and then play around with things like launch angle and spin to see what the maximum distance is you can get out of your swing speed. 

 

http://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/

 

I did use the online application.  I put my optimal numbers based on TMAG 17/1700 motto for high launch low spin.... well....  My optimal carry distance is only 195 yards?   I kinda in disbelief that I can get a 220 yards carry.  So I'm thinking the 17/1700 belief is misleading.....

[jaskanski]

I did use the online application.  I put my optimal numbers based on TMAG 17/1700 motto for high launch low spin.... well....  My optimal carry distance is only 195 yards?   I kinda in disbelief that I can get a 220 yards carry.  So I'm thinking the 17/1700 belief is misleading.....

 

OEM's using misleading information? Surely not?

What it does illustrate is that ball speed is still the number 1 factor in ball distance. For a tour caliber player with a high ballspeed in the 165+mph bracket and a positive angle of attack, then yes 17/1700 will work very well with a driver with low forward CoG. For yourself with 130 ballspeed and possibly a negative angle of attack given your spin figures it ain't gonna work. For 130mph you'd be better off with 3000rpm of spin and a lot less launch angle - say 10 degrees. Get your smash factor to 1.47 or above to get the most of ballspeed - and get rid of a tendency to slice to get your launch down. Of the three components that makes a ball fly downrange, speed is the most important, followed by LA, and spin is last. 

[revkev]

I've ignored this thread to my own peril.  My swing speed is a tad north of 90 ball speed on good hits 130-135. I have found that with a driver I get my longest drives at 16/2400.  Does that sound about right?  I think that almost every drive I hit on the range today was there. 

[jaskanski]

I've ignored this thread to my own peril.  My swing speed is a tad north of 90 ball speed on good hits 130-135. I have found that with a driver I get my longest drives at 16/2400.  Does that sound about right?  I think that almost every drive I hit on the range today was there. 

 

Good question.

This is where you want to be in the ball park for the optimum carry distance for your given swing speed, but other factors such as your swing style (late, mid or early release) combined with angle of attack (negative, neutral or positive) will have an effect on how the total (carry and roll) distance can be optimised for your driver and shaft combo.

If you look at the Trackman optima figures, you can see there is a distinct difference between each optimal carry and total tables:

 

Carry:

 

Total:

 

So these things have to be considered when you get fitted for a driver. A good fitter will see the data and be able to isolate a solution. A bad fitter will keep swapping shafts and heads until you hit a few good drives.

[revkev]

Always interesting -

 

Generally speaking I average 92 or so in a  session plus 3.5 AoA, 215 carry, high 230's or sometimes 240 with run out.  LA is 16.5 spin between 2400 and 2600.  I can get close to the so called holy grail of17/1700 when I'm on a monitor for a while (I have a very repeatable and adjustable swing.)  However I find that I maximize my distance at closer to 16/2400.  I hit driver after driver that looked like that number on the range yesterday.  I'm so close to swinging well, I get there, then something happens at work and I can play or hit balls for a number of days and I retreat - Once I can get there for a couple of weeks I keep it for a time, generally speaking.

[Kenny B]

I don't know where they get the rollout number of 40-50 yards.  Not on any courses around here!!

[jdiddyesquire]

I don't know where they get the rollout number of 40-50 yards.  Not on any courses around here!!

Palm Springs. lol

[jaskanski]

I would be happier to see most folks in your swing speed range with your 16/2400 stats - which gives good distance. The ubiquitous 17/1700 launch window only really works with perfect swings with rock hard fairways with sub 140 mph (ball speed) swings. The slightly greater spin will gain you more carry, whilst the slightly shallower launch will give you a better roll out at 16/2400. Descent angle degrades with higher spin at higher speeds, hence touring pros like a sub-2000 spin to maximise roll out. At lower speeds this doesn't make as much a critical difference. 

In summary, if you're happy with your ball flight, then I'd be happy with your figures.

[Kenny B]

Palm Springs. lol

 

Played there a lot and it depends on the course and time of year, but the Bermuda has to be closely mowed and the ground firm.  

 

I can understand more roll for the higher swing speeds, but not for the under 90 groups.  

[superduper]

OEM's using misleading information? Surely not?

What it does illustrate is that ball speed is still the number 1 factor in ball distance. For a tour caliber player with a high ballspeed in the 165+mph bracket and a positive angle of attack, then yes 17/1700 will work very well with a driver with low forward CoG. For yourself with 130 ballspeed and possibly a negative angle of attack given your spin figures it ain't gonna work. For 130mph you'd be better off with 3000rpm of spin and a lot less launch angle - say 10 degrees. Get your smash factor to 1.47 or above to get the most of ballspeed - and get rid of a tendency to slice to get your launch down. Of the three components that makes a ball fly downrange, speed is the most important, followed by LA, and spin is last. 

 

I just played yesterday, I don't slice anymore.  If fact my bad shots were hooks.... straight left.    That's because I have not played for 4 months since March and I can feel my left arm kinda numb after 13 holes. 

 

AND how can you get a 21 degree LA with a negative AoA???  Unlikely...... my AoA must be postive.....

[jaskanski]

I just played yesterday, I don't slice anymore.  If fact my bad shots were hooks.... straight left.    That's because I have not played for 4 months since March and I can feel my left arm kinda numb after 13 holes. 

 

AND how can you get a 21 degree LA with a negative AoA???  Unlikely...... my AoA must be postive.....

Why don't you post your full LM data so we can eliminate any element of doubt?

[superduper]

Why don't you post your full LM data so we can eliminate any element of doubt?

 

What data do you need?  My OP has all the data you need.   I didn't use a trackman anyway....  The LM was Flightscope kudu.... I can't recall if it has the AoA data. 

 

According to the driving fitting chart, if you have a 17 degree of LA, the AoA is 5 degrees positive.  well mine is 21 degree....   

[Blade]

What data do you need? My OP has all the data you need. I didn't use a trackman anyway.... The LM was Flightscope kudu.... I can't recall if it has the AoA data.

 

According to the driving fitting chart, if you have a 17 degree of LA, the AoA is 5 degrees positive. well mine is 21 degree....

No, a 17° launch angle doesn't mean you have a 5° AoA. You can be hitting down and still end up launching higher than that depending on your dynamic loft. That chart shows ideal conditions for given AoA and speed. It doesn't work backwards, telling you what your AoA is based on LA.

[Undershooter]

No, a 17° launch angle doesn't mean you have a 5° AoA. You can be hitting down and still end up launching higher than that depending on your dynamic loft. That chart shows ideal conditions for given AoA and speed. It doesn't work backwards, telling you what your AoA is based on LA.

My angle of attack used to he awful(negative) and I still launched it very high with lots of spin. Since then I have actually improved(raised) my AoA and my launch hasn't changed much. Spin has decreased though.

[Kenny B]

What data do you need?  My OP has all the data you need.   I didn't use a trackman anyway....  The LM was Flightscope kudu.... I can't recall if it has the AoA data. 

 

According to the driving fitting chart, if you have a 17 degree of LA, the AoA is 5 degrees positive.  well mine is 21 degree....

 

Blade is correct. Think of hitting a 3-wood off the fairway. You can't hit up on the ball to launch it. Has to be level to slightly negative AoA, but it still launches high (well some some people, not so much for me. )

[superduper]

No, a 17° launch angle doesn't mean you have a 5° AoA. You can be hitting down and still end up launching higher than that depending on your dynamic loft. That chart shows ideal conditions for given AoA and speed. It doesn't work backwards, telling you what your AoA is based on LA.

 

Yes but my spin is only about 3000 RPM (it could be because I'm using a 11.5 degre driver).  When I slice a couple months ago, the fitter handed me a 9.5 degre driver, my LA was only 16 degree at that time.  And the spin is 3800 RPM.   That high spin could be a sign that I was hitting down on the ball that caused too much spin  (yes I did have over the top swing flaw).  Now my LA is up to 21 degree and the spin decreases to 3000 RPM.    And my ballflight on the monitor are weak fades.... 

 

And the result on the monitor is pretty accurate.  I was getting about 220 to 230 yards on the course for the total distance (using bushnell tour v3).  I'm not sure about my carry because I couldn't see where the ball landed after the descent.  Too bright now and too far away.....

[Blade]

Yes but my spin is only about 3000 RPM (it could be because I'm using a 11.5 degre driver). When I slice a couple months ago, the fitter handed me a 9.5 degre driver, my LA was only 16 degree at that time. And the spin is 3800 RPM. That high spin could be a sign that I was hitting down on the ball that caused too much spin (yes I did have over the top swing flaw). Now my LA is up to 21 degree and the spin decreases to 3000 RPM. And my ballflight on the monitor are weak fades....

 

And the result on the monitor is pretty accurate. I was getting about 220 to 230 yards on the course for the total distance (using bushnell tour v3). I'm not sure about my carry because I couldn't see where the ball landed after the descent. Too bright now and too far away.....

You wouldn't have 3000 rpm if you were hitting up. Since you're hitting fades with that much spin, you must still be over the top, steep, and hitting down on the ball. Maybe not as much as before. But it's still happening.

[superduper]

You wouldn't have 3000 rpm if you were hitting up. Since you're hitting fades with that much spin, you must still be over the top, steep, and hitting down on the ball. Maybe not as much as before. But it's still happening.

 

remember that spin number is kinda ideal for my ball speed.  I wouldn't worry about spin number because my ball speed is kinda low anyway.  I played with different spin numbers using the flighscope optimizer, it doesn't make much difference.  I put spins numbers between 4000 to 2000 RPM.  The best number is around 2700 RPM.  And it added about 4 yards of carry.....  yes 17/1700 might be true if you are after max total distance and not max carry. 

 

What I'm worried is the launch angle....

 

And I have the 3 bays GSA pro... Now my swing path is square.... used to be outside in....

[jaskanski]

Blade is pretty much spot on with his assessment IMO and it tallies with my initial thoughts too. Generally speaking, if you have a high launch angle with high spin, you can almost guarantee there is quite a bit of disparity between dynamic loft and angle of attack - a classic indicator of an over-the-top move. Remember that dynamic loft accounts for around 85% of launch angle (AoA is only 15%) so you are showing quite a bit of club face to get 20 degrees of launch with that much spin. A +ve angle of attack  would yield much less spin (in the 2400rpm range) for those launch figures. I could explain a lot easier with your LM data, but i think it's safe to say that the general trend is that your swing is the root cause of your stats. A video of your swing attached too and it would be an ideal chance to explain LM data and swing characteristics to all.

[superduper]

Blade is pretty much spot on with his assessment IMO and it tallies with my initial thoughts too. Generally speaking, if you have a high launch angle with high spin, you can almost guarantee there is quite a bit of disparity between dynamic loft and angle of attack - a classic indicator of an over-the-top move. Remember that dynamic loft accounts for around 85% of launch angle (AoA is only 15%) so you are showing quite a bit of club face to get 20 degrees of launch with that much spin. A +ve angle of attack  would yield much less spin (in the 2400rpm range) for those launch figures. I could explain a lot easier with your LM data, but i think it's safe to say that the general trend is that your swing is the root cause of your stats. A video of your swing attached too and it would be an ideal chance to explain LM data and swing characteristics to all.

 

OK.  I want to find a guy with a LM that indicates AoA.  There is a guy who owns a trackman in my area and he moved 50 miles away from his current location.   Are there any LM that can show your AoA other than trackman?   

[jaskanski]

Trackman. Flightscope. GC2 with HMT. Those are pretty much your industry standards.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Interesting. I swing inside to out big time. However, I'm also over the top. It's a strange combo but works out to a 100 MPH swing speed and an average of 230 yard drives with the occasional 250 yard shot and the always great 280 yard wind and course aided bomb.

[Blade]

You can't be in to out and over the top at the same time. Do you mean you'll swing over the top sometimes, but you're normally in to out?

[Undershooter]

You can't be in to out and over the top at the same time. Do you mean you'll swing over the top sometimes, but you're normally in to out?

Agreed. In to out is 100% the opposite to over the top. Over the top is the same thing as out to in.

[revkev]

Going back to Kenny and his roll out question - you don't need to be in Palm Springs - lots of the Midwest in the late summer produces that type of roll out.  The heat sucks the moisture out of the ground and the ball goes like a jack rabbit.  Just look at the average driving distances at Midwestern tour events held in July/August/September.  Of course you'll get an except where there is an unusual amount of rain (this weekend) but if you get a larger sample you'll see that there is tons of roll out there.

 

I love going to Indiana - I struggle to hit it 230 here in the summer and only get it close to 250 occasionally in the late winter/spring.  In Indiana I feel like someone gave me 25 years back again - boom I'm hitting it to places I had forgotten that I could reach.  There's no additional carry, it's all run out.

[Jmikecpa]

It is all a matter of what works for you and if that spin is working then that is all that counts. I just did a driver fitting a few weeks back and my numbers were SS 118 BS 175 LA 12.8 and Spin of 2,050 which were an average of 20 balls with the new driver. With my launch and swing speed 3,000 RPMs of spin would kill me and I couldn't fly it more than 240 off the tee. Spin can be you friend with a lower swing speed since it will help keep the ball in the air hence distance.

 

On a side note I hit about 30 combos of the SLDR to try and get 17/1700 and could not even get close.

[revkev]

It is all a matter of what works for you and if that spin is working then that is all that counts. I just did a driver fitting a few weeks back and my numbers were SS 118 BS 175 LA 12.8 and Spin of 2,050 which were an average of 20 balls with the new driver. With my launch and swing speed 3,000 RPMs of spin would kill me and I couldn't fly it more than 240 off the tee. Spin can be you friend with a lower swing speed since it will help keep the ball in the air hence distance.

On a side note I hit about 30 combos of the SLDR to try and get 17/1700 and could not even get close.

 

I enjoyed T's tutorial on CG from earlier this year. It seems to me if you have a negative A0A that back low is better fro you. Interestingly negative AoAs generally belong to higher handicappers or also very strong male players. PGA tour players have a slightly negative AoA on average, there are of course exceptions. LPGA players who need to maximize their distance as well as better older male players generally have positive AoAs.

 

So I would expect Jmike to have a slightly negative or very close to neutral AoA and I don't think that mixes well with the SLDR. With my AoA and consistent swing I can hit 17/1700 like the carnival bell when you get me on an LM. What I've found is that it's not the best number for me. I need a bit more spin, between 2200 and 2500 to get maximum distance. 16/2400 is the ticket for me and when I'm swinging well I'm right around it. The forward CG and higher loft along with a spin killing shaft helps me.