Course set up and pace of play

[revkev]

In my humble opinion golfers over estimate themselves ibpn three ways. Two are provable, most overestimate how far they hit the ball by 30 yards and most under estimate what they shoot, for example their handicap is made up of all non-competitive rounds where there are lots of give me's and an occasional mulligan thrown in. The third is that they (we) all think that they putt better on faster greens. While there's no data that I know of I would observe that if that were actually the case then instead of speeding the greens up in Majors the committees would slow them down to make the course tougher.

 

With those things in mind it's simle for a course staff to take steps to make play go faster. Here are some suggestions:

 

1. No play off the tips unless approved by the pro on duty.

 

2. Most men will play the next set of tees so be sure that those tees are positioned so that the courses plays shorte than its listed distance. This helps to mitigate over estimations and gives the guys somethng to brag about after the round. It also speeds up play, shorter clubs in, more hit greens, faster pace of play.

 

3. Keep the green speeds moderate and don't put pins by ridges. Fewer thee putts, faster pace of play.

 

4. Shorten the rough and lengthen the fairways a bit.

 

Yesterday was one of the busiest days of the year. There is no doubt that the set up on the course that I played contributed significantly to the abysmal pace of play.tees were back even behind there maximum on a few holes and greens were ridiculously fast. Of course the latter didn't bother me because I putt great on fast greens.

[silver & black]

I agree on all points. Nothing p*sses me off more than getting behind a group of guys playing from the back tees that can't hit the ball farther than 180 with a driver. Most of them usually hit 2-3 balls off the tee because they aren't happy with the result of the first tee shot.

 

I always play from the middle tees and I can average 250 with the driver. I know my iron game is week, so I would rather have nothing longer than an 8 iron in on a few par 4's and usually a PW or GW.

 

My home course is notorious for placing pins on downhill slopes and crowns that run all the way off the greens if missed. They are small greens that are difficult enough to putt well on without that added BS being thrown in, especially when they know the course will be crowded. I'm all for it for scrambles and competitive play, but keep it reasonable for the masses to just play.

 

I tend to like faster greens myself. I hate feeling like I need to crush the ball to get it to the cup.

[jaxbeachpackerfan]

Agree mostly.  But I'd argue the average performance relative to green speed is a bell curve, with most putting better on reasonably fast greens, but declining performance as the greens approach tour speed.  

[Johan Rens]

I was very slow when I started to play some 30 years ago, I took a lot of practice swings in the bunker and stand in line of playing partner's put.

 

Should you not ask how many of those players (those with one ball in his hand and one in the pocket) do not have a clue about the rules and etiquette of the game?

 

They go for a lesson or 2 but have no idea what is going on, all they are looking for (same as all of us) are those good shots that makes you come back again and gain.

[Jmikecpa]

Wrong tees are the main reason that Bethpage is a 6 hour round.

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

I agree with everyone here. It's really hard for most to set ego aside and play a distance that is reasonable. People get stuck in a mindset and just stay there. When my dad and I play, we vary tee boxes, which I don't see a lot of people do. We go up on long par 3s and maybe back on shorter 5s. Who says you have to just play one set.

But I think it's really up to courses to set up the course to aid pace of play. Most people won't play a tee box that doesn't have a marker on it, so set markers at reasonable distances(shorter like revkev suggests).

And pin placement is huge. I played at a course last year where every hole was just over a hazard(bunker, water, etc). Every frigging hole. If courses would put pins in the middle of the greens and get rid of forced carries, play would certainly be faster.

[Fireinthehole]

I would love if courses did this on the weekends. Preferably Saturday when everyone and their dog is out!

I like the idea of changing between the tees during a round. I'll do this if a group let's me play through.

[revkev]

Agree mostly.  But I'd argue the average performance relative to green speed is a bell curve, with most putting better on reasonably fast greens, but declining performance as the greens approach tour speed.

 

I think we are talking degrees here. Reasonably fast and consistent allows people to make putts, between 9-10 is perfect. Get much above 10.5 on a public access course and it gets ugly fast. Clubs can get quicker because the membership knows the breaks but do that at a resort or a daily fee place - NG

 

I'm telling you guys the way to control it on busy days is don't let anyone on the tips without the Pros consent and move the next set of tees up. It's a win/win scenario.

 

I can only imagine what Bethpage Black must be like now. Everyone wants to play the tips. Who cares that only one or two of the best players in the world can break par from the tips, let's have fun and play them, shall we.

 

I love creating my own tees if there isn't a set that works. That's creativity. It's got to be fun.

[rvman]

My home sits on the 11th tee of my course, and I sit on my back porch and watch all these guys hitting from the back tee's who have NO business being there. I'm 46 and can hit from the back when my game is on, but I've moved up to the senior tee's and the game is such a blast now.

[Kenny B]

We have had similar discussions before. I have only played from the tips on only a handful of courses when the yardages are short. I have no desire to play from the tips on most courses, as I think it would be a most un-fun (if there is such a word) round I would ever play. I guess I don't understand why golfers want to be so miserable. I've moved up to the whites at most courses.

 

However, as I have said before, courses could significantly speed up play if they created another tee box in front of the forward tees, and call it the forward tee. Most women, unless they played golf in school, play from the forward tees, and IMHO, the yardages from forward tees is too long. So, as you guys get old like me, you move up a tee box or two. Where do women go when they get older? There's no place to go, so they take more shots and play slows down. Many of you will say that there aren't many women playing, but that's false. Many Clubs have women's only day, and a lot more wives are joining their husbands. My wife is a decent player 19 HCP from the forward tees, but many of the tees are too long for her anymore at her age; 5500 yards is typical and too long. It would not be a great expense for clubs to put in a 4700 yard, or even shorter, set of tees for women and kids. One of these days I might just need to play from there.

[rvman]

So many courses are too long. At my course the par 4's should be par 5's. Which is another reason I moved to the senior tee's.

 

Another issue, IMO, is that so many greens at public courses are too small. I watch on TV these greens the pro's play are HUGE. Whereas amateurs are trying to hit to these small greens.

 

A local ex-pro told us that if you can't hit driver and iron and be on the green on par 4's then you need to move up to the next tee.

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

A local ex-pro told us that if you can't hit driver and iron and be on the green on par 4's then you need to move up to the next tee.

This is great advice, but then we get back to overestimating how far they hit the ball. They think 430 par 4 is a driver 280 and then a 7 or 8 in when in reality its a driver then 5 or 4 iron.

[revkev]

This is great advice, but then we get back to overestimating how far they hit the ball. They think 430 par 4 is a driver 280 and then a 7 or 8 in when in reality its a driver then 5 or 4 iron.

To the front bunkers, more like driver 5 wood or hybrid.

 

I'm telling you that the way to do it is turn that 430 yard hole into 415 by moving the tee up and then keeping the pin in a safe place. Keep the tips on the tips or better don't even have them out but allow folks back there with permission and you'd lop off 1/2 hour on those busy days. You'd make more money too.

[mizuno_lover]

It is rare that the course set up at my club slows up pace of play.  The only time it does is on our medal rounds and then it is off the tips and it is stroke play that for some reason "must" take five hours to play.  It is like an immutable law of physics that stroke rounds are that slow.  Yet tell people it is stableford a modified type of stroke play and bingo we can play that in 4 hours.

 

Slow play stems from selfish people who can't be bothered getting with the program and pulling their collective fingers out of their butts to get a move on.  If they lose a ball you'd think they were searching for a gold nugget, they walk the course like they are tourists on vacation not golfers with a purpose, and wouldn't know ready golf if they fell over it.  I should qualify that that applies to competition rounds where everyone is playing in the same competition.  It is a little different when you have social golfers mixed with a daily type competition affair.  But even then if people get their act together and as the Rev points out play off tees that suit their ability they would enjoy it far more and be quicker too.

[apprenti23]

Lots of great points made here! I'll add that sometimes people are just plain slow and couldn't care less about anyone else out there.

[RookieBlue7]

Personally, 9 is too slow for greens. My home course rolls at a 9 and they're too slow. The local CC rolls around 11, and love those speeds. You actually get a true consistent roll on them instead of hopping along at 9 because there's more grass.

 

And if you only put pins in flat spots you'd have a lot of worn out greens. You'd need to plan for that in a course design.

 

The problem with slow play is people. They think they paid so they'll play as slow as they please. Marshals/rangers being clueless on how to make sure people play at an acceptable pace is part of the problem. Courses not enforcing pace requirements is part of the problem. Most courses give you 4 hours 15 minutes to play and that's about 30 minutes too long for a round of golf. But they're generous. If they'd notify people of the expected pace then enforce it, people would play faster instead of talking for 10 mins between holes on tee boxes, etc.

[Kor.A.Door]

Yes you could move tee boxes, move flag positions, and things like that to try to speed up play, but when you get down to it, it's a people problem, some people are just slow, and they don't care how slow they are. I think that faster greens are easier to play, but if you go too fast, they become unplayable. I think if you roll them at 10-11 you are good, if they roll 12-13, you can't play them, I played on greens that rolled between 13-14 the other week, and they were unplayable. You could not putt them.

[BIG STU]

Really all good points here from everyone and I am sure in different regions it is different problems to the why.

Like Mizuno Lover said Some people think they are on vacation. Well here that is a fact they are on vacation and the world stops because they are. They don't give 2 hoots if they piss off members or staff. Next week they are gone home. As far as rangers and I know and play a lot of golf with them. They are retired and drawing SS or a pension and just ranger for the free golf. In their defense I will say they are told "To keep it moving the best you can and don't piss the tourists off" For them it is a Catch 22 situation.

On green speed it does depend on green undulation and the skill of the players involved. One resort type executive course keeps the greens slow and I mean slow probably a 5 no joke. I used to work there and asked the Super why did he not make them a little firmer and faster? he replied to me "Do you see the caliber of hacker that generally plays here? if we put them to say a 8 even they would be complaining that the greens are too fast. He had a valid point in that case.

As far as people playing the right distances according to their skill level I see a lot of people who should be playing from the extreme forward tees attempting to play from the tips and to add to that at sea level. I for one cannot for the life of me see where that is fun hitting a driver 3 wood and 8 iron if that to a par 4. All of us locals know the type that spells tourist hack. They show up dressed to the nines in the latest (insert name here) golf attire with the newest (insert name here again) equipment and insist playing from the back most tees.

I also agree with what was said about course design especially forced carries which we seem to have a lot of here. Give folks an option. I mean the average golfer can not carry a ball 170 or 180 yards with a iron or hybrid or fairway wood for that matter. Courses need to present a challenge I agree but some are overkill for the average player.

I also agree with ladies yardages too. yeah some of those holes are too long and too hard of a forced carry for a average lady golfer not a LPGA player or good lady college golfer. There are certain courses I will take my wife to because they are set up where she has an reasonable expectation of getting on in regulation

In a nutshell I think as a whole golf need a dose of common sense and common courtesy from both players and administration alike. Just my .02 worth

[kfilly20]

Lots of great points made here! I'll add that sometimes people are just plain slow and couldn't care less about anyone else out there.

 

Exactly, we don't  need more rules. Just need people to pull their heads out of their asses.

[RookieBlue7]

Really all good points here from everyone and I am sure in different regions it is different problems to the why.

Like Mizuno Lover said Some people think they are on vacation. Well here that is a fact they are on vacation and the world stops because they are. They don't give 2 hoots if they piss off members or staff. Next week they are gone home. As far as rangers and I know and play a lot of golf with them. They are retired and drawing SS or a pension and just ranger for the free golf. In their defense I will say they are told "To keep it moving the best you can and don't piss the tourists off" For them it is a Catch 22 situation.

On green speed it does depend on green undulation and the skill of the players involved. One resort type executive course keeps the greens slow and I mean slow probably a 5 no joke. I used to work there and asked the Super why did he not make them a little firmer and faster? he replied to me "Do you see the caliber of hacker that generally plays here? if we put them to say a 8 even they would be complaining that the greens are too fast. He had a valid point in that case.

As far as people playing the right distances according to their skill level I see a lot of people who should be playing from the extreme forward tees attempting to play from the tips and to add to that at sea level. I for one cannot for the life of me see where that is fun hitting a driver 3 wood and 8 iron if that to a par 4. All of us locals know the type that spells tourist hack. They show up dressed to the nines in the latest (insert name here) golf attire with the newest (insert name here again) equipment and insist playing from the back most tees.

I also agree with what was said about course design especially forced carries which we seem to have a lot of here. Give folks an option. I mean the average golfer can not carry a ball 170 or 180 yards with a iron or hybrid or fairway wood for that matter. Courses need to present a challenge I agree but some are overkill for the average player.

I also agree with ladies yardages too. yeah some of those holes are too long and too hard of a forced carry for a average lady golfer not a LPGA player or good lady college golfer. There are certain courses I will take my wife to because they are set up where she has an reasonable expectation of getting on in regulation

In a nutshell I think as a whole golf need a dose of common sense and common courtesy from both players and administration alike. Just my .02 worth

Sorry, but if a ranger/Marshall is just there for the free golf, they're there for the wrong reason and shouldn't be doing the job. Their job is to ensure pace of play, if people get pissed off, that's their problem. If they become beligerent, you remove them from the course. Resort/vacation destination or not. One person shouldn't get to determine a course full of people's misery.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Rangers are my biggest issue. "Yeah we told them... they're going at a good pace... "etc is just crap they say so the rangers can act like they did something. I can't hit a ball more than 250 but can still get by in 2 in a half hours from the tips. Why? I play fast. I get to the ball laser the distance, grab a club, swing and go. There's no drop a ball here, redo a shot there, unless it's wide open. Moving stuff around doesn't help the core issue itself... slow golfers are going to be slow on easy courses on hard courses, on easy set ups and from a shorter tee box. 

 

Don't get me wrong, you could maybe make the course easier to cut down on time, but you have to keep golfers moving no matter the conditions. I've played a course that was set up for a mini tour and it took me 6 hours because of the rough. I've played the same course where everything was moved up, rough was cut down, greens were smooth and it took 5 and a half hours because the ranger was not doing anything. You can argue that saved a half hour but I'd argue that pace of play is still too slow regardless of conditions. 

 

That's where I place blame, although you make valid points about course conditions.

[RookieBlue7]

My uncle that I play with often is one of the slow golfers. He slows down if he's playing well or if he's aying poorly. Pretty much if he's playing about average he's just slow, but painfully slow. I usually ride with him because I'm the youngest in out group and I walk to my ball from the cart when we arrive at his ball. I even tell him to pull ahead and to the side he he's past me or whatever and I'll walk back. By the time I walk back, figure my distance, hit and start walking back to the cart he's pulled a club usually. Time I get back to the cart he's usually ready to hit. I also play fast and I'll leave him at his ball or the green and go to the next tee or next shot of he's taking too long. He gets the picture pretty quickly after I do that once. He knows he's slow and he's tried to speed up and can't do it. Meticulous is how I'd describe it. Regardless we do all we can to make sure we keep moving at a good clip because he tries to speed up and mentally can't. Don't get it but if the other 3 of us are fast it usually only adds 10-15 mins to the round. But we keep pace. When he didn't play we finish much earlier and are usually waiting on the group in front of us every shot. With him, we're not waiting but they're generally leaving from hitting their shot when we pull up to the ball.

[revkev]

Personally, 9 is too slow for greens. My home course rolls at a 9 and they're too slow. The local CC rolls around 11, and love those speeds. You actually get a true consistent roll on them instead of hopping along at 9 because there's more grass.

And if you only put pins in flat spots you'd have a lot of worn out greens. You'd need to plan for that in a course design.

The problem with slow play is people. They think they paid so they'll play as slow as they please. Marshals/rangers being clueless on how to make sure people play at an acceptable pace is part of the problem. Courses not enforcing pace requirements is part of the problem. Most courses give you 4 hours 15 minutes to play and that's about 30 minutes too long for a round of golf. But they're generous. If they'd notify people of the expected pace then enforce it, people would play faster instead of talking for 10 mins between holes on tee boxes, etc.

For you in regards to green speed there are always exceptions and lots depends on the course and pin placements. I'm advocating flat places for known busy days, move them around the rest of the week. Generally speaking a course knows when it will be busy. Move the set of tees that you know most guys are going to play up and keep the pins easy on those days. Use the old 1,2,3 or easier, medium, difficult method for other days and mix and match. Tuesday is a lot different than the Saturday of a Holiday weekend.

 

If it weren't for the rain on Friday we would have had a 5 hour plus round with a heat index of 110. That's not safe and it's not fun. There were multiple factors for sure but the third tee was outrageous. A hole that's a tough par 3 at 160 became ridiculous at 199 because the gold (second from the back) was next to the tips. It was into the wind and from there three water hazzards came into play instead of just a trap. It was an absolute joke.

[sp0rtsfan86]

For you in regards to green speed there are always exceptions and lots depends on the course and pin placements. I'm advocating flat places for known busy days, move them around the rest of the week. Generally speaking a course knows when it will be busy. Move the set of tees that you know most guys are going to play up and keep the pins easy on those days. Use the old 1,2,3 or easier, medium, difficult method for other days and mix and match. Tuesday is a lot different than the Saturday of a Holiday weekend.

 

If it weren't for the rain on Friday we would have had a 5 hour plus round with a heat index of 110. That's not safe and it's not fun. There were multiple factors for sure but the third tee was outrageous. A hole that's a tough par 3 at 160 became ridiculous at 199 because the gold (second from the back) was next to the tips. It was into the wind and from there three water hazzards came into play instead of just a trap. It was an absolute joke.

I find courses that have multiple tee areas use the same ones far too frequently. At least in my observation, it's rare they move them back from where the whites should be. I personally hate seeing a par 3 play off the reds when I'm playing the whites. However, I get equally frustrated when it plays from the tips. If the guys who spot everything could lay out which holes will be longer and shorter and put that on a blackboard that would be awesome, just so I know where backups are more likely to occur. 

 

I think the worst slowdowns occur on short par 5's.  I know it's fun to risk/reward players, but it's also a great way to see a backup when a guy duffs a 3 wood 100 yards into the rough and needs two people to find it. Those ones are annoying because sometimes I get so frustrated at waiting I choose to go wedge wedge just so I don't have to wait for the 4 to chip and putt out. 

[L.I. Rich]

I played at my local muni (Crab Meadow) as a single on Friday.  I was placed with a threesome of twenty-somethings who had been high school classmates.  They were perfectly nice people, but only one of them had any familiarity with the game of golf - he was about a 30 HC.  The other two, one was playing in Docksiders, the other, Chuck Connor high tops.  Fortunately, the course had the middle tees (whites) placed well forward to speed things up, but there is nothing to be done when the round resembles caddy day at the pool from the movie Caddyshack.  I'm really not referring to my guys - at the first hole, I introduced them to the concept of pre-positioning the golf bag closest to the next tee, and they caught on to that and a lot of other concepts of courtesy that I brought up.  Unfortunately (or not), the group ahead was the counter example, as they ignored cart path only signs and left the cart on the wrong side of the green all day long.

In the end, my group was very receptive to learning golf etiquette - they just needed someone to help.,  Other groups are just helpless, because when the play, they play with their friends who are equally ignorant.

I knew what I was in for this weekend, and told my wife I would be gone for 6+ hours.

Next weekend, I'm playing in a two day tournament of no import, but will be gone longer because everyone will examine each putt from every angle under the sun, and still miss two feet short.

I'm not Jewish, but Oy Vey!

[RookieBlue7]

Lots of problems come from maintenance/ground staffing as well. More and more frequently I see that turf grass management is a post art. By that I mean zero experience as it relates to keeping a golf course in good shape by varying different nuances. Moving tee markers, intelligently rotating pins, etc. lots of that comes from lack of experience and knowledge about the game and managing the grasses, both native and non-native.

 

My home course is a prime example. The course itself is an old course. The greens are smaller and so are the tee boxes (compared to more modern design). They also have bent grass greens that are 30 years old and need to be rebuilt. The sub-surface is hard and there's not a ton they can do. It's also under new management for the last 2 years (the group does have course management experience though and own 2 other courses prior to this one). It's getting better but they still don't water the bent enough to keep it cool. Good news is they have wised up and have been cutting trees down around greens like we've been begging them to do in order to get more airflow to the greens. The trees weren't in play but they kept air from circulating. Problem is, and I don't mean this in any disrespectful form whatsoever, they hired Hispanics as a large part of the grounds crew. Nothing against the populace as a whole, but the ground crew speaks very little English and they have zero knowledge of the game. They rotate pin locations... By moving them 5-8 feet from where they were previously. On smaller greens, this is terror on the grasses. They don't know any better and the GM should ride out with them for a few weeks and show them how to rotate them properly for maximum recovery times for the grasses. That's why there are dead patches in spots where poa annua has taken home on the greens, partly anyway. The grass gets too much traffic with how they rotate pins. They also have the depth indicators on the flag that they have no clue how to set and they're always wrong, and useless.

 

Next is their tee movement. They back them up up up front to back on the tee box until you get to the back and start over at the front. This leaves dead strips in an almost checkerboard pattern. Instead of rotating front, back, middle, etc and varying the course with a mind toward grass recovery.

 

Those slow play down as well, IMO, because guys are strategizing for the patchy grass on the greens and trying to find a spot on tee boxes with good grass and that's level (that's another thing, lots of the tees have settled a good bit and there are lots of "holes" on the tee boxes).

 

Having a grounds crew that knows how to both keep the grass healthy and has a mind toward pace of play helps a ton as well. At least IMO.

[mizuno_lover]

We are pretty blessed when it comes to what you have discussed Rookie.  A number of the greens staff also play at the club and are low markers so are very invested in how the course looks and recovers.  Our head green keeper is super qualified and knows his stuff and has been with the club for some time as a result we have one of the best conditioned courses in the Perth metro area.  Mind you I reckon there are few trees that could be taken out that would speed up play and save me a lot of heartache too   The greens are running at 11.2 at the moment and certainly don't contribute negatively to pace of play.  The biggest problem we have midweek is social clubs playing on the course.  We were stuck behind some boneheads that even after we told them they were playing off the wrong tees continued to do so.

[jdiddyesquire]

I think a big part of the guys playing the tips is that they have the length to play from there, but not the control. And courses and golf culture do a crappy job of educating golfers about accuracy vs. length.

 

Everything in advertising is about length. Being long. I'm a 290 carry consistently. Unfortunately, I hit what I'm aiming at about 50% of the time. I long enough to play from the tips. I'm just not nearly good enough. So if I'm playing as a single, I'll play from the tips. If I'm with a group, I play from wherever they're playing at. Regardless, even as a high capper I can play fast from the tips. If I lose a ball, I just drop another one.

 

Put me in the camp of most slow players are self absorbed dickheads who think because they paid $50 and slipped the cart girl $20 they own the course.

[revkev]

LI Rich may have hit the nail on the head.  I started this thread Friday, with that day being the Holiday from work and proceeding the Holiday itself it may have been the busiest golf day in recent memory.  It was a mess in regards to numbers of players and many clearly didn't play a lot of golf.  Not much to be done there but still putting that tee box back to where my playing partner who's a 1 was begging for par as we looked at the yardage and situation, after our 20 minute wait, just added to it.

 

Rookie, you got to my main point.  It's a lost art across the board.  Most rangers are doing it for a free rounds, for whatever reason the people who are out working on the grounds could care less beyond a paycheck and the kids in the clubhouse are oblivious so courses are suffering.  The muni I play is a pretty good example of some of that.  It's in amazing shape for the amount of play that it gets but in regards to course set up I know that the kids that work in the cart barn take care of that.  The super says, go cut the holes rotating them front to middle, middle to back, back to front and off they go thinking it's a laugh riot if they cut the hole on a ridge, heck why not all the pins on ridges.  Next someone else sets the tees as he likes just so long as they move.

 

For obvious reasons we don't get this at the club.  People would get fired there.  I can't wait for our new greens to come in.  In fact I think I'm going to go play the temps in a bit just to see how it's doing.  I had to work Saturday and Sunday so today and tomorrow are my weekend.

[apprenti23]

Great point by jdiddy- i know heaps of people who are long enough, but nowhere near as accurate as required to play from way back. I guess its in our nature, the machismo factor, that we need to pound driver on a 400 yard hole so we have a wedge in hand rather than throttle back with a fairway wood or hybrid and be left with a short iron in hand but in the short grass.

 

I wish the general public would realize that tour players don't hit driver 14 times a round like most amateurs do.