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Handicapping – Do you believe it?


PlaidJacket

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Do you have a handicap? Is your Hcp recognized by the USGA?

 

Most of us here at MGS play tournaments from time to time where a handicap is required. My club is a member of the TxGA (Texas Golf Association) which is affiliated with the USGA. We apply the GHIN system provided by the USGA for handicapping purposes. There are other handicapping systems available that may or may not be recognized by the USGA. I'm certainly no handicap official or expert.

 

How many times have you played in a tournament and thought, “Hmmm? How did that guy all of a sudden shoot such low scores with that handicap?” For example; a player has an 8.5 handicap and turns in three consecutive tournament scores/rounds of 74, 76, and 72 one weekend. Wow! I guess he finally figured out what's been holding him back. Yeah. I think I know. Don't you?

I know for a fact that many players don't turn in their low rounds. I've witnessed it first-hand. Handicapping is only as good; IMO, as the player allows the system to be. I personally record each of my rounds on a scorecard I carry in my hip pocket. There is usually someone in our group that is keeping all our scores on a given day. (We have bets to settle you know) I don't turn in my scorecard at the Pro Shop. I take mine home and log-in to GHIN and enter my score on a hole by hole basis for each round and course that I play. For better or worse.

 

I play the majority of my rounds at my home course. This is primarily where my handicap is derived. When I play other courses “away” I keep my cards and input the scores for those courses in the GHIN system when I return home. I've thought about suggesting to the Pro at my club that they institute a new policy whereby if you are playing an 18 hole round (at home) and do not turn-in a score then you will be entered into the handicap system as having shot Even Par that day. Think it would do any good?

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I'm with you PJ. I enter every single score whether it's home or away. It's hard enough winning net score tournaments without the sandbagging thrown in.

 

I do like your idea, I'm just not sure the pro will go for it - i.e. practice rounds or rounds where you're just goofing off with some buddies and drinking beer.

 

If there was some way the system could only use scores that are recorded in tournaments, leagues, legitimate rounds, etc. I would definitely be in support of that.

 

Or maybe even a general handicap that includes everything and a separate tournament handicap that only includes official rounds like I mentioned above.

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jbil... I have noticed different notations in GHIN beside posted scores. For instance you'll see a T next to tournament scores and an A next to scores where you played a different course from your home course where your handicap is kept so to speak. In fact when I'm entering scores like I did this past weekend.... I selected the scores I posted with a T for tournament score. Perhaps those T scores are used for tournaments only. ??

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Right. Our system shows the same thing. H for home, A for away, and T for tournament scores. Normally our tournament scores are entered by the pro shop and the scorecards areally signed and witnessed by the guys that played together. I wouldn't be opposed to playing in tournaments where the handicaps are based strictly off tournament scores.

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Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

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Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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PJ, it sounds to me like that guy should have his HCP reduced by the HCP committee.  There is a procedure and table to do that in Section 10.3 I believe.  They can do that without notifying the player.  It is designated on the recent scores with an R after the score and that score stays with a player a lot longer that a regular score for HCP calculations.  In the end it is all up to the HCP committee.

 

On the second issue, a player not posting a score. that is covered in Section 8.4b.

 

b. Penalty Scores for Failure to Post

If a player fails to post an acceptable score as soon as practical after completion of the round, the Handicap Committee has three options:

1) Post the actual score made by the player;

2) Post a penalty score equal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the scoring record;

3) Post the actual score and a penalty score

The Handicap Committee is not required to notify the player prior to posting a penalty score.

This is all OK if the person is playing the course that the score is posted for and someone knows that the score was legit.  Other courses played and not posted may not be known.
 
I agree with you that it's a problem.  It's an honor system and some people don't have any!
 
In the old days before computers, the pro took everyones scorecard and entered the scores himself, and he knew when a score was bogus.  Sometimes technology works against us.
 
 

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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My USGA Hcap is online so i can input my scores from home or work.  5 years ago i joined a program at a course in Tamps that gave me access to the USGA Hcap system.  It was a remote access9online0 so I kept all my scores in there, mostly away courses.  The next year I was never asked to renew but did not lose the online access.  5 years later, i am still entering scores and receiving my Hcap twice a month via email.

 

So I saw no need to spend an extra $35 at my home course, after i joined last year, for their Hcap.  

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Very informative Kenny. I'm going to print this info out and pass it along to our Pro at the club. I know we don't have a "handicap committee" per se' but maybe it will get them to thinking about it more.

Thanks.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I have to agree with Kenny 110% "It is supposed to be an honor system and people do not have that any more" Dead on it!!!  I am fixing to start the process and get my Amateur status back and start playing some Carolinas Golf Association events. I am looking to see how the events are ran from what I have seen and heard so far they are ran correctly. I have been posting scores this year on our system and so far they have came out 3.5 most scores on my home course from the senior tees

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A club I used to belong to several years ago kept track of when you played and you had 1 month to turn in your score for that round.  If it was not turned it, you got an even par round posted against your handicap.  Kept a lot of people honest.  

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How many times have you played in a tournament and thought, “Hmmm? How did that guy all of a sudden shoot such low scores with that handicap?” For example; a player has an 8.5 handicap and turns in three consecutive tournament scores/rounds of 74, 76, and 72 one weekend. 

The T for Tournament score is for this exact purpose. Those stay on longer than regular scores because of these types of issues. The club can also report him to the USGA and they can lose their ability to have a handicap keeping them out of tournaments. We had a tournament a few years ago where a member brought in a 3 guys with 20 handicaps the proceeded to shoot 15 shots better than the next team it think they all shot in the 70's. Our club pro called them in and banned them from playing tournament at our course. 

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The T for Tournament score is for this exact purpose. Those stay on longer than regular scores because of these types of issues. The club can also report him to the USGA and they can lose their ability to have a handicap keeping them out of tournaments. We had a tournament a few years ago where a member brought in a 3 guys with 20 handicaps the proceeded to shoot 15 shots better than the next team it think they all shot in the 70's. Our club pro called them in and banned them from playing tournament at our course. 

 

A few years ago, we had a 3-day tournament and one guy like that shot a really low round on the first day, and the local pro lowered his HCP on the spot before the next two rounds.  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Very informative Kenny. I'm going to print this info out and pass it along to our Pro at the club. I know we don't have a "handicap committee" per se' but maybe it will get them to thinking about it more.

Thanks.

The committee is only as good as the people that are on it.  At my former club the head pro was chair of the handicap committee and turned a blind eye to the scams that were going on.  In my first year at the club I played two net events that the winner of both was the same guy, playing off a "12" that shot low 70's in all four rounds over two events.  Never played another handicap event there for the next 9 years I was a member.  Coincidentally this group also spent a lot of coin in the pro shop so it was not in our pro's best interest to do anything about it.  There was a group of about 8 or 10 guys at the club that really sandbagged their handicaps so they could win all of the net events.

 

To answer the original question, I do keep a handicap and post every round that I am playing regardless of the course.  The only rounds that I don't post are with my son since I am working with him and hitting two or three balls a hole and playing different tees depending on the yardage that works for him.  A lot of those rounds I am not sure I actually even play the full 18 holes if I get wrapped up in teaching.

 

The reverse is also true since I have played in a lot of events where guys come in as a 1 or a 2 and there is no way on this planet that they could ever play to that number.  I used to see the same two or three guys that were at a lot of local events that claimed scratch and never broke 80 in any event over a 10 year period...including a few events at their home club!

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I shouldn't complain any about tournaments and handicaps. It's always been a joke. Unless you play in Championship flight. I'm pretty much done with tournaments in my career. Not sour grapes mind you.... it's just my "been there done that" attitude. I had fun playing in all the tournaments when I was younger. Anymore, tournaments have gotten expensive it seems. I'm just not interested in paying for all the booze it up evening meals, parties and such.

It's always funny to me guys that have/claim a much lower handicap than they ever play to. I mean, what does that tell you about the person? Same with sandbaggers. You think you'd like to do business with those guys?

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

There will always be sandbaggers. Sometimes it goes beyond not posting a score, we have a guy in our group that posts his scores, but he posts them from the incorrect tees, so he may shoot 75 playing the black tees (tips), but when he posts the score into Ghin he posts 75 from the white tees, the differential is about 3 shots at our course, so it keeps his hcp higher.

The handicap system works, and I believe in it, but it is a must that it is used correctly, and if people get caught cheating the system there should be discipline. It come down to what others have said, Honor, and integrity, for the game, and for yourself, there are a lot of people that have lost sight of that.

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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If people know that he played from the tips, they can report him to the HCP committee, but it's up to the HCP committee to change the scores for that guy. The scores posted in GHIN reflect the tees played so it can be looked up and challenged.  If they don't want to do it, there is nothing you can do.  Honor and integrity works for both the player and the people running the GHIN for the club.  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Reading the posts here makes me glad we have the system we do in Australia.  Most clubs (private) run daily competitions.  If you enter you are required to submit the card or get the equivalent of a black mark on the system.  The following is an excerpt of the rules regarding players that effectively shoot a good score but don't submit their cards for handicapping:

 

Player Fails to Return Score Card: If a player fails (for a reason which is not approved by the committee in charge of the competition) to post an acceptable score as soon as practicable after completion of their round, the following process should be followed: − The round is to be recorded in GOLF Link with the status of ‘No Score – Not Approved' (provided the Stipulated Round was intended to be anywhere from 8 to 18 holes inclusive). − However, if the committee considers the player is most likely to have had a ‘good' score, it should NOT use the ‘No Score – Not Approved' option.  Instead it should enter a score for the player for that round equivalent to the best/lowest Differential of the player's most recent previous 19 Differentials AND select the GOLF Link ‘Non-Standard Entry' score status option. − Where a committee records a player's score status for a round as either ‘Non-Standard Entry' or ‘No Score – Not Approved', but then subsequently becomes aware of the score the player actually had, it SHOULD replace the original entry with the score the player had. Note i: See Section 12(ix) for operational notes and handicapping implications of the above stipulated score statuses. Note ii: A handicap will lose its full status in the event that a player should accrue in their most recent 20 Actual Scores (ie their list of Live Scores) five or more entries with a status of ‘No Score – Not Approved'.  Such a handicap will be known as a “Provisional GA Handicap​

 

Pretty strict but it gives the clubs teeth to stop guys sand bagging and manipulating handicaps.  It still happens but not nearly as often as it used to.  Why anyone would want to win under false pretences is beyond me.

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We had this dicussion at the club over some beer and wings the other night. The general consensus of most of the better players is that they prefer to stick with playing tournaments that are not handicapped or at least have a gross as well as net.

 

The general consensus is also that they would play in more handicapped tournaments if only Tournament scores were used to calculate the handicaps for those tournaments.

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Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

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We had this dicussion at the club over some beer and wings the other night. The general consensus of most of the better players is that they prefer to stick with playing tournaments that are not handicapped or at least have a gross as well as net.

 

The general consensus is also that they would play in more handicapped tournaments if only Tournament scores were used to calculate the handicaps for those tournaments.

 

Which is how it is done in Britain and Ireland and in Europe...... for now at any rate.  There is a threat (as I see it) of changing. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hardly know what to say here except to say how do I find a 3 day stroke play tournament?  With a lower handicap I'm going to have a pretty good shot in one of those. :)  (Assuming everyone's handicap is legit)

 

Since most tournaments outside of club championships are one day events or a series of little nine hole match play things (member guests and the like) I know that almost anything is possible.  So it is very possible than an 8.5 may shoot a 75 on a given day.  He may be a very good player who doesn't get to play much but has been able to work on his game in a short span and pull a round like that out.  16's sometimes shoot 81 - it happens on a given day.

 

There is certainly cheating that goes on - if you see the same people win handicap events time after time you know that's the case.  At my club in Indiana we knew who the cheaters were and they got rooted out by the club handicap committee adjusting their handicaps.  The same holds true in the City of St. Pete, unless you're brand new to the Community you aren't getting away with cheating - you're a known quantity by someone.  I can't speak to my new club but I sure hope it's that way.

 

From my experience it's more often a matter of a person having stuff go his way on a given day.  His handicap is legit - he wins that one time and then falls back into the middle of the pack for years to come -

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I can't speak for your area Rev but surely there are some good tournaments to be had. 3 day ones. I've never understood 'cheating" in a tournament using bogus handicaps. It's out there and I've seen more than enough through the years. The only flight that I think is legit is championship where everyone has to have a 5 or less HCP. Everything else is a sandbagging crap shoot. Just this year in our club championship (1st flight) the guy that won our flight had a GHIN hcp of 8.5 and shot 74, 76, 72. Surprise! He had three career rounds in one weekend. Heh! I found out later that I was the last to know this guy is a known cheat. I guess our Pro didn't know either. Ha.

I may have said in earlier posts on this type of subject but I'm done with tournaments. I'll play our club championship next year but that's it. I get much more enjoyment playing guys I know heads up for a few bucks.  Good luck finding your tournament.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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There'Å› a difference between a career round and a career weekend. 

 

I played with a  legit 10 h/c one day who shot -2 one day. I'd played with him before, solid, nothing spectacular. But this he holes out from the fairway on one hole. Chips in twice, has a tee shot over the OB fence by miles until it hits a power pylon and comes back in. It was just one of those days. 

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There'Å› a difference between a career round and a career weekend.

 

I played with a legit 10 h/c one day who shot -2 one day. I'd played with him before, solid, nothing spectacular. But this he holes out from the fairway on one hole. Chips in twice, has a tee shot over the OB fence by miles until it hits a power pylon and comes back in. It was just one of those days.

That can happen to me any time it wants. I'm waiting.

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Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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I can't speak for your area Rev but surely there are some good tournaments to be had. 3 day ones. I've never understood 'cheating" in a tournament using bogus handicaps. It's out there and I've seen more than enough through the years. The only flight that I think is legit is championship where everyone has to have a 5 or less HCP. Everything else is a sandbagging crap shoot. Just this year in our club championship (1st flight) the guy that won our flight had a GHIN hcp of 8.5 and shot 74, 76, 72. Surprise! He had three career rounds in one weekend. Heh! I found out later that I was the last to know this guy is a known cheat. I guess our Pro didn't know either. Ha.

I may have said in earlier posts on this type of subject but I'm done with tournaments. I'll play our club championship next year but that's it. I get much more enjoyment playing guys I know heads up for a few bucks.  Good luck finding your tournament.

Yeah one round anything is possible but 3 days like that for an 8.5? Not likely. I'm very surprised that would happen at a club. Our club policy manual is very clear about stuff like that. It would earn you a suspension of membership or perhaps even expulsion.

 

The only three day stroke play events here are way out of my reach. Invitationals for elite players where the winner will be a DI college player and the participants are U S Am type players. Anything I play in is either at my club or Senior flight and I've always been in the Champioship flight of those so I don't have to deal with handicaps. When I was younger it was the same way, championship flight all the way, didn't worry about handicap.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I think I'm going to have a discussion with our head pro. We really need to tighten up the handicap situation around our club. To be honest with you I'm not all that sure they really care. Kind of sad really.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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It's really disappointing in what's supposed to be a gentleman's game that folks out there scam the system.  Played in a tourney last year where the low net was a 57, and the guy who won carried something like a 20 handicap.  Won't play at anything at that course anymore...

 

I play mostly in tourneys run by TwinCitiesGolf.com -- their payout is credit toward future tournaments, so that tends to keep the scammers at bay.  Every so often they run an event with some cash payouts - they keep the prizes big enough to be interesting, but not so big that professional scammers show up.  

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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I think I'm going to have a discussion with our head pro. We really need to tighten up the handicap situation around our club. To be honest with you I'm not all that sure they really care. Kind of sad really.

 

Sadly, this seems to be a common theme.  To the detriment of the game, the pro will kowtow to the members rather than confront them and lose business.  But people other than members show up at these tournaments, and there is no validation of HCP.  It's why I don't play in them anymore unless I want to contribute to a good cause.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I'm at that point as well Kenny.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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We had this problem at my club. I was paired with a "16hc" and watched him reach 2 Par 5s in two shots, then 3-jack to keep his hc up.

 

Here's one way these guys get away with it: they enter their correct score, BUT FROM A SHORTER SET OF TEES. Ghin awards them a higher hc if they shoot 80 from 5,500 yds vs. 6,400 yds. You must look at which tees he said he used in the Ghin system, or you'll miss it.

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