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Wow, that was some interesting reading, I've been on this site for about 3 years now I think, and I never read the blog until just a few months ago if I remember correctly. I still don't read it very often, I did read the pebble beach pro am article, and while I understand where the writer was coming from, I also didn't care. I like the watching the pro-am, I think it's still a good tournament, it's also for the fans, it's also for the celebrities, it's becoming more about he celebs lately, but the tourney is what it is, it's like Waste management Phoenix open, it may not be for everyone, they are what they are, I enjoy watching golf, so I don't care what tourney it is. If someone writes a blog that bi don't like, I just stop reading and move on, the blog is just like every post here, it's someone's opinion, everybody has one, but mine is the only one that matters. I disagree with a lot of posts, and things here, some I leave alone, some I jump in, I have disagreed with and had mild arguments with some of you here, but we've mostly kept it it pretty civil and at the end of the day sometimes we just agree that we disagree, that's life sometimes. I really enjoy coming here and chatting, and the back and forth commentary on his site, there are a lot of good people here. I don't always feel like I fit in here, but it's a place for me to read about golf, and talk about golf, sometimes my opinion is the law, sometimes I realize it's not, but I won't generally let you know that, or give up the fight. This is fun y'all. If you don't like something don't read it.

 

 

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Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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Several articles? Man, can you provide me with a complete list of occasions where you've been put-off by something I've written? Feel free to include this one.   Seriously though, I get it. Crude...

Out of fairness to the author, Chris Nickel, it should be pointed out that he didn't say that anyone who disagrees is Just Dumb, Man.   The actual quote is " if you don't take the time to become a c

I'm waiting for the resurrection of Mr_Divots. In his opinion I trust.

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247 grams vs 244 grams + 3 grams speaks of the quality of work more than the playability.

 

Same in any industry.

 

It's difficult to cook a great steak but when you can't, you put a little mushroom or whatever sauce you want on it and it's still good.

 

I had a milspec that was 33/350 When I pulled the head was actually 358 grams. I had a Bettinardi that said 353 grams, it was 352. I loved both putters. Performance was close but one paid attention to detail pretty well, the other did not.

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Here are some general thoughts - 

 

With feel, there's nothing to debate - People have their own preference and ultimately play what works best for them...

 

There's also some inconsistency in what people actually define as JDM - I go with the definition that JDM are clubs marketed and sold specifically to the Japanese Domestic Market - Not just clubs made, manufactured or designed in Japan or by a Japanese company - That said, for many the cost is off-putting in light of the fact performance is a function of a number of variables, not just production tolerances.

 

In terms of empirical (I think this is what you meant by imperial?) evidence, I think it's the other way around - People have accepted certain things as truth w/o any evidence to back that up in the first place. And now people want evidence to disprove something they accepted as truth w/o any evidence in the first place. 

 

I'm all about statistically significant studies which show definitively the performance benefits of the varied fitting philosophies, types of clubs, etc. Fortunately, sites like MGS perform these tests all the time and produce awesome information which truly helps people make better decisions. That said, my opinion is a lot of the hype around JDM, is simply that, hype w/o anything to back it up. No one can debate personal preference, but it really depends what your bottom line is. If it's getting a set of irons which are dead on in terms of headweight, loft/lie right out of the box, JDM does an awesome job of that. Is that worth the premium in price? That's totally up to you. Typically, if there is superiority in any industry, people eventually move toward that product - and if not in masses, at least in majority.

 

It certainly stands to reason club builders would much rather start with a club that's exactly at "x" weight rather than having to add a couple grams of tip weight, etc. - This certainly makes the process easier. But I've never seen any information which shows any performance difference in a clubhead that weights say 267 grams and one that weighs 264 grams and has 3 gr. of lead tape...

I will say that the last paragraph can be very subjective. I will concur with you for probably 85% of the players out there good and bad they can not feel the difference.On the numbers on a Trackman or any other device the numbers may not change at all. There are some of us that can feel even that slight difference. Sometimes uncanny feel can be a curse. Believe this or not I can feel if any club has a tip weight in it by picking it up and swinging it. Personally on my clubs I never check a swing weight. I have no earthly idea on the SW on any club in the bag except for the 56 and 60 wedges and that is because I did the evaluation for MGS on them and had to compaire them to my old ones. To be completely honest when I talk JDM I am biased towards Miura and older Mizuno like the 33s or older 32s . There is something about the processes and pure steel that those two companies use that makes their stuff unique.

Driver --- Honma G1-X Stock R Flex----  3W Callaway Steelhead UST Pro Force Gold 65 stiff--- 2 iron 1980 Macgregor VIP Nike R flex-------- Irons 3 thru PW 1980 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex shafts--- SW Cleveland 588 Sensicore S-400-- Putter Rusty Santa Fe Bulls Eye Fluted shaft-- Bag Old School Hoofer I had in the stash--- Goes along with my raggety persona

 

 

 

 

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I know that we've seriously jacked this thread but that last comment is exactly why it's tough on OEMs that are trying to break in or rebrand. The market is shrinking or correcting may be more accurate and everyone is basically producing the same type of club in one of three categories. It's hard to separate or distinguish so if I'm Joe Blow consumer I start with what I know and find something..

 

I'm an older guy, there's no compelling reason for me to try Nike or Cleveland or Bridgestone because I'm going to find something from Ping or Titleist or TMAg that works first. I ended up with Wilson irons because my teacher was a Wilson guy and I remembered the brand. They had something that fit me perfectly, done deal.

That is a good deal for you. You hit the combo. You found a guy who knows your swing and game. He is also a good fitter and knows the Wilson equipment. All 3 of those combined is the key
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Driver --- Honma G1-X Stock R Flex----  3W Callaway Steelhead UST Pro Force Gold 65 stiff--- 2 iron 1980 Macgregor VIP Nike R flex-------- Irons 3 thru PW 1980 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex shafts--- SW Cleveland 588 Sensicore S-400-- Putter Rusty Santa Fe Bulls Eye Fluted shaft-- Bag Old School Hoofer I had in the stash--- Goes along with my raggety persona

 

 

 

 

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Yeah the only thing that I don't like about my C100's is the cheap look. That looks corrected in the C200 so an upgrade may be in the future for me.

Taylor Made Sim2  10.5 (Opened 1 click) Ventus Blue 5  R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

Edison Wedges 54 and 59 KBS Tour Graphite 80's

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Tour Exotics 3 wood is in the bag because we are allowed 14 clubs.  It's a great club for pulling balls out of the water or from bushes - you never want to put your hand into anything in Florida unless you are absolutely certain that it's safe.  There are rare wind conditions when I might hit it off the tee on a few holes that I play.  

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 I disagree with a lot of posts, and things here, some I leave alone, some I jump in, I have disagreed with and had mild arguments with some of you here, but we've mostly kept it it pretty civil and at the end of the day sometimes we just agree that we disagree, that's life sometimes. I really enjoy coming here and chatting, and the back and forth commentary on his site, there are a lot of good people here. I don't always feel like I fit in here, but it's a place for me to read about golf, and talk about golf, sometimes my opinion is the law, sometimes I realize it's not, but I won't generally let you know that, or give up the fight. This is fun y'all. If you don't like something don't read it. 

 

This portion of Kor.A.Doors's post is spot on! I feel the same way.

 

I actually know what vitriolic and bloviate mean. Maybe I are smarter than I thunk I was? B)

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I'll agree with the OP on this one about how it seems the tone has changed in the blog posts. MGS has always taken pride in being brand agnostic and stating the facts. That's what has always drawn me to the site. Lately, things seem much more opinion based and that is fine, but my God are the opinions extremely negative. I never saw MGS as a negative golf site. I find myself now questioning if it always had and that I've just had blinders on or what. Lately it seems they are brand agnostic to the point that they hate all brands and all things golf. In response to the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, what do you think people want to watch? Celebrities in Monterey playing one of the most beautiful courses in the world OR a bunch of random amateur minorities playing on a muni track outside of Detroit? I sure as hell know what is more appealing to me!

 

As for language, it doesn't bother me. I don't really care about language, this is 2016 not 1916.

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I'll agree with the OP on this one about how it seems the tone has changed in the blog posts. MGS has always taken pride in being brand agnostic and stating the facts. That's what has always drawn me to the site. Lately, things seem much more opinion based and that is fine, but my God are the opinions extremely negative. I never saw MGS as a negative golf site. I find myself now questioning if it always had and that I've just had blinders on or what. Lately it seems they are brand agnostic to the point that they hate all brands and all things golf. In response to the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, what do you think people want to watch? Celebrities in Monterey playing one of the most beautiful courses in the world OR a bunch of random amateur minorities playing on a muni track outside of Detroit? I sure as hell know what is more appealing to me!

 

As for language, it doesn't bother me. I don't really care about language, this is 2016 not 1916.

 

Glad you weighed in...always good to hear from the lifers...at least long-timers.

 

First to answer your question, I think people want to watch professional golfers...not celebrities...and definitely not celebrity hacks (although if it was nothing but the worst, it might be good TV). I mean...obviously if they're able to isolate on Berman so easily, they can just as easily skip the Ams completely...but I suppose that's preference as much as anything.

 

I was genuinely curious about your assessment that we've been "extremely negative" lately. In that too, there's obviously plenty of room for subjectivity and opinion. We know some people would classify the Pebble Beach tone as negative (fair). Same for the JDM article (fair too, although I'd also suggest that there's plenty of factual info in there).

 

I'm also guessing that the it doesn't matter who did it first article could be construed as negative (TaylorMade certainly didn't care for it). Personally I saw that as an exercise in pragmatism, and perhaps some defeatism on my part. Basically, here's the reality. We all know it's the reality, so let's stop getting wrapped up in bits and pieces that ultimately don't matter (even if they should).

 

It's a fair assessment that those 3 came in pretty quick succession, though again, I'd say that's coincidence (Pebble is on the calendar, JDM...not like I asked Chris to write something to piss people off, and who did it first was basically an idea that's been rattling around in my head...when somebody tweeted the side by side of the FLY-Z and the M2 it gave me the inspiration to run with it.

 

So we have 3 articles, where I can see some degree of negativity...along with some real-world perceptions, and some unpleasant realities that some don't want to hear. Ok...but beyond that? Like I said...genuine curiosity on my part, so I went back to the last 40 things published on MyGolfSpy. Here they are:

 

pub1-2.png

 

Allowing for the fact that the PGA Show occurred in there, I went back and looked at 20 more. Here are those:

 

pub3.PNG

 

Again...negativity is subjective, and its fair to say some have interpreted some of my thoughts in ways I hadn't intended, but whatever...it happens.

 

I suppose if you start with Pebble and look at a narrow sample size, you can make some argument for a negative trend (though I wouldn't call it excessive), but over the last 60...and certainly if we went back 20 more...and 20 more before that...again, just my opinion, but reports of our bad attitudes have been greatly exaggerated.

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247 grams vs 244 grams + 3 grams speaks of the quality of work more than the playability.

 

Same in any industry.

 

It's difficult to cook a great steak but when you can't, you put a little mushroom or whatever sauce you want on it and it's still good.

 

I had a milspec that was 33/350 When I pulled the head was actually 358 grams. I had a Bettinardi that said 353 grams, it was 352. I loved both putters. Performance was close but one paid attention to detail pretty well, the other did not.

 

Production tolerances speak to production tolerances. Whether or not that makes a difference to you, is entirely up to you. Whether or not that makes any difference in performance, is an entirely different story.

 

I think your putter example indicates this as you had two putters, with a 6 gr. difference and didn't realize it until you pulled the heads.

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I will say that the last paragraph can be very subjective. I will concur with you for probably 85% of the players out there good and bad they can not feel the difference.On the numbers on a Trackman or any other device the numbers may not change at all. There are some of us that can feel even that slight difference. Sometimes uncanny feel can be a curse. Believe this or not I can feel if any club has a tip weight in it by picking it up and swinging it. Personally on my clubs I never check a swing weight. I have no earthly idea on the SW on any club in the bag except for the 56 and 60 wedges and that is because I did the evaluation for MGS on them and had to compaire them to my old ones. To be completely honest when I talk JDM I am biased towards Miura and older Mizuno like the 33s or older 32s . There is something about the processes and pure steel that those two companies use that makes their stuff unique.

 

 

I hear ya, but your refined sense of feel is more like 1 in a 100 or 1 in 1000, from my experience. Either way, it's phenomenal you have this and know exactly what it is you want - For me, I don't include standard production models like the MP 32s, 33s, in the JDM discussion b/c they were made and marketed to the US/rest of the world. Miura, Epon, etc. are in line with what I consider JDM to be...

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Not for nothing, but you know what I DO like? I like the tone of this thread -- different opinions offered by grownups. MGS might not have the biggest forum, but we do have the most adult.  

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What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  Sub 70 639D - 9.5; :cleveland-small: Launcher HB Turbo; :mizuno-small: ST 190 
FW Wood: :tour-edge: Tour Edge EXS 220 - 15*; :mizuno-small: ST 180 14*
Hybrids:  PXG 0311 22
Utility Irons: :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model Utilities 18, 21, 24*;  Lynx VT Stinger - 16*
Irons::wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged; :benhogan-small:PTx Pro, :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; :wilson_staff_small: Progressives (circa 1993)

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CBX -2, :benhogan-small:Riviera 52-56-60; :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model
Putter:   :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8,  :benhogan-small:Baby Ben

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B X (2020); :srixon-small: Z-STAR XV

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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Not for nothing, but you know what I DO like? I like the tone of this thread -- different opinions offered by grownups. MGS might not have the biggest forum, but we do have the most adult.  

+1  It's why I joined MGS in the first place.  The equipment discussions and reviews along with the camaraderie is a bonus!

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We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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This is too rich, they are having a commercial for the Bayou club (my club) and its robot mowers.

 

I'd like to hear T's take on those. :).

 

Let's see how adult we really are here.

Taylor Made Sim2  10.5 (Opened 1 click) Ventus Blue 5  R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

Edison Wedges 54 and 59 KBS Tour Graphite 80's

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Tour Exotics 3 wood is in the bag because we are allowed 14 clubs.  It's a great club for pulling balls out of the water or from bushes - you never want to put your hand into anything in Florida unless you are absolutely certain that it's safe.  There are rare wind conditions when I might hit it off the tee on a few holes that I play.  

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This is too rich, they are having a commercial for the Bayou club (my club) and its robot mowers.

 

I'd like to hear T's take on those. :).

 

Let's see how adult we really are here.

 

Why is your club mowing robots? I didn't think they grew in your climate...

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What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  Sub 70 639D - 9.5; :cleveland-small: Launcher HB Turbo; :mizuno-small: ST 190 
FW Wood: :tour-edge: Tour Edge EXS 220 - 15*; :mizuno-small: ST 180 14*
Hybrids:  PXG 0311 22
Utility Irons: :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model Utilities 18, 21, 24*;  Lynx VT Stinger - 16*
Irons::wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged; :benhogan-small:PTx Pro, :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; :wilson_staff_small: Progressives (circa 1993)

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CBX -2, :benhogan-small:Riviera 52-56-60; :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model
Putter:   :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8,  :benhogan-small:Baby Ben

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B X (2020); :srixon-small: Z-STAR XV

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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Production tolerances speak to production tolerances. Whether or not that makes a difference to you, is entirely up to you. Whether or not that makes any difference in performance, is an entirely different story.

 

I think your putter example indicates this as you had two putters, with a 6 gr. difference and didn't realize it until you pulled the heads.

Production tolerances are in every product however when a company strives to have extremely low tolerances beyond industry standards again it speaks well of that company regardless if it were Japanese, American, Korean, etc. I would even say that is why old American foundries like Hoffman are talked about with a great sense of nostalgia. In their prime they produced great product with great tolerances. I play both JDM and USDM (my gamer driver is a Callaway Alpha with a $60 Graman shaft, while I have $150 GD hybrid shafts) so I don't have a horse in this race. I just appreciate any company that goes that extra mile.

 

Yes but they both stated a specific weight and one was off by a decent amount (affects swingweight). I had to pull the heads to know. If I was confident in the company maybe I wouldn't have had to.

 

Many times things that are off still work, mainly because we are just not good enough to notice. However if we could keep those variables constant (7 gram weight difference between iron heads) wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

 

If you don't think you need that type of service or don't want to pay the premium. Good for you and your wallet. More resources for lessons. However let's not put down companies that are trying to excel in production.

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Production tolerances are in every product however when a company strives to have extremely low tolerances beyond industry standards again it speaks well of that company regardless if it were Japanese, American, Korean, etc. I would even say that is why old American foundries like Hoffman are talked about with a great sense of nostalgia. In their prime they produced great product with great tolerances. I play both JDM and USDM (my gamer driver is a Callaway Alpha with a $60 Graman shaft, while I have $150 GD hybrid shafts) so I don't have a horse in this race. I just appreciate any company that goes that extra mile.

 

Yes but they both stated a specific weight and one was off by a decent amount (affects swingweight). I had to pull the heads to know. If I was confident in the company maybe I wouldn't have had to.

 

Many times things that are off still work, mainly because we are just not good enough to notice. However if we could keep those variables constant (7 gram weight difference between iron heads) wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

 

If you don't think you need that type of service or don't want to pay the premium. Good for you and your wallet. More resources for lessons. However let's not put down companies that are trying to excel in production.

 

 

No doubt - attention to little details and creating product with strict tolerances is certainly preferable...no one is debating that and I've never challenged that point - people are free to spend their money in any manner they see fit and I'm not putting down any OEM for doing what they do - In fact, I applaud them and love the fact people have this choice.

That said, I don't think the golfing public could afford it, literally. 

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Apparently some sections of the golfing public can because a lot of those high end JDM companies are still out there.

 

Just because we are not part of their target market does not mean they don't make great product or are overhyped.

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Apparently some sections of the golfing public can because a lot of those high end JDM companies are still out there.

 

Just because we are not part of their target market does not mean they don't make great product or are overhyped.

There's always going to be a percentage of buyers who exist at the very top end - This is why we have luxury items - But it's a small percentage in any industry and like you said, not the "target market." 

 

What we're really talking about here are the dynamics of luxury and these dynamics vary depending on the industry - The quality is always there and whether or not a product gets a deserved amount of hype is an entirely different conversation. Just b/c a product sits in the category doesn't mean it's automatically over-hyped - but it doesn't mean there's any correlation between price and performance either. 

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There's always going to be a percentage of buyers who exist at the very top end - This is why we have luxury items - But it's a small percentage in any industry and like you said, not the "target market." 

 

What we're really talking about here are the dynamics of luxury and these dynamics vary depending on the industry - The quality is always there and whether or not a product gets a deserved amount of hype is an entirely different conversation. Just b/c a product sits in the category doesn't mean it's automatically over-hyped - but it doesn't mean there's any correlation between price and performance either. 

 

Tim Clarke at Wilson calls it "Male Jewelry."  There are folks that will buy a diamond encrusted driver from DeBeers simply because they want to.  My only hope is to be the salesman who gets that commission! I personally don't begrudge anyone for spending whatever they want to on anything. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Rolex - it's a finely crafted piece of equipment, but you know what the biggest difference is between a $10,000 Rolex and a $30 Timex is? 

 

The Timex keeps better time

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What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  Sub 70 639D - 9.5; :cleveland-small: Launcher HB Turbo; :mizuno-small: ST 190 
FW Wood: :tour-edge: Tour Edge EXS 220 - 15*; :mizuno-small: ST 180 14*
Hybrids:  PXG 0311 22
Utility Irons: :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model Utilities 18, 21, 24*;  Lynx VT Stinger - 16*
Irons::wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged; :benhogan-small:PTx Pro, :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; :wilson_staff_small: Progressives (circa 1993)

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CBX -2, :benhogan-small:Riviera 52-56-60; :wilson_staff_small: Staff Model
Putter:   :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8,  :benhogan-small:Baby Ben

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B X (2020); :srixon-small: Z-STAR XV

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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