Bridgestone's new JGR Driver.....milled face question?

[JudgeSmails]

So I have a question if anyone can explain this to me.....Bridgestone's new driver, the JGR, has a milled face, the claim is that it reduces spin.  The seems contrary to what I thought milling/grooves did to a golf ball.  Wedges have milled grooves to increase spin......any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[GolfSpy_X]

See if this helps:

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/bridgestone-golf-power-milling/ 

[JudgeSmails]

See if this helps:

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/bridgestone-golf-power-milling/ 

 

Thanks for that article...interesting stuff

[jaskanski]

Sales gimmick?

Surely not?

Either way, grooves or milling in a driver face provide little or next to zero spin enhancement - and it could also be argued that anything less than a perfect attack angle and square face at impact would actually create more spin with a milled face. That would be 99% of the golfing population then lol.

[JudgeSmails]

Sales gimmick?

Surely not?

Either way, grooves or milling in a driver face provide little or next to zero spin enhancement - and it could also be argued that anything less than a perfect attack angle and square face at impact would actually create more spin with a milled face. That would be 99% of the golfing population then lol.

 

wait, you mean i have to make a good swing too?  

[numberonecoog]

Here is my question. Will it wear off of the driver face like a wedge does eventually or are they banking on the fact it gets used so little it wont have an effect? Once the groove rule came in effect brands decided to mill the space between the grooves as well. Milling hardly wears off of a putter. Maybe this is the thinking? Id hate to buy this driver then a year and a half gain spin because the face milling has worn out

[JudgeSmails]

Here is my question. Will it wear off of the driver face like a wedge does eventually or are they banking on the fact it gets used so little it wont have an effect? Once the groove rule came in effect brands decided to mill the space between the grooves as well. Milling hardly wears off of a putter. Maybe this is the thinking? Id hate to buy this driver then a year and a half gain spin because the face milling has worn out

 

good point, whats the wear-life on that milling?

[jaskanski]

Here is my question. Will it wear off of the driver face like a wedge does eventually or are they banking on the fact it gets used so little it wont have an effect? Once the groove rule came in effect brands decided to mill the space between the grooves as well. Milling hardly wears off of a putter. Maybe this is the thinking? Id hate to buy this driver then a year and a half gain spin because the face milling has worn out

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Since the milling has a negligible effect anyway (read post above) it won't make a jot of difference - which it won't anyway, because drivers are not used in the same way as a wedge (I hope) and therefore any wear (especially on titanium too) will be equally negligible.

[Tony Covey MGS]

Can't speak directly to durability, but I wouldn't be worried about it either.

 

Regarding the original question - it's actually kind of fascinating. We all know that grooves, groove design, however you want to describe it, help create spin on wedges.

 

Now you have Bridgestone telling us that milling a driver face actually helps decrease spin. And actually, this isn't just a bridgestone story. PING (surface texture on LS Tec), TaylorMade M2 (also surface texture), Cobra drivers (yup...surface texture) all say the same thing, effectively that creating friction reduces driver spin.

 

So texture (grooves) both adds and removes spin. How is this possible?

 

It has to do with loft...more specifically dynamic loft. If we start with wedge lofts and work towards longer clubs, there is a point where friction actually begins to remove spin. While it varies based on how each of us delivers the club, the point of transition generally occurs somewhere around our 6 irons.

 

When John Barba and I were at PING ahead to go over the G lineup, we discussed this topic with the PING R&D guys...15 minute conversation...admittedly most of it a bit over my head. But the phenomenon...or the physics are the result of tangential forces (you can see how this got over my head pretty quickly), which causes the ball to momentarily reverse itself. PING's Erik Henrickson (author of both the driver and iron fitting articles we published) likened it to the behavior of a superball. Anyone who has ever played with one knows they are prone to suddenly switching direction - as direct result of the directionality of spin. 

 

While the behavior of a golf ball is more predictable, the underlying behavior is basically the same. So long version...it's really complicated.

 

Short version...friction adds spin until about 6 iron lofts, and then it starts taking it off.

[silver & black]

Ok........... I don't do this, nor have I ever, but I have seen and played with guys that carry chap stick and coat the face of their drivers with it because they swear it reduces spin. This would seem to be in total conflict with the milled face thing. What's the average guy supposed to believe?

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Can't speak directly to durability, but I wouldn't be worried about it either.

 

Regarding the original question - it's actually kind of fascinating. We all know that grooves, groove design, however you want to describe it, help create spin on wedges.

 

Now you have Bridgestone telling us that milling a driver face actually helps decrease spin. And actually, this isn't just a bridgestone story. PING (surface texture on LS Tec), TaylorMade M2 (also surface texture), Cobra drivers (yup...surface texture) all say the same thing, effectively that creating friction reduces driver spin.

 

So texture (grooves) both adds and removes spin. How is this possible?

 

It has to do with loft...more specifically dynamic loft. If we start with wedge lofts and work towards longer clubs, there is a point where friction actually begins to remove spin. While it varies based on how each of us delivers the club, the point of transition generally occurs somewhere around our 6 irons.

 

When John Barba and I were at PING ahead to go over the G lineup, we discussed this topic with the PING R&D guys...15 minute conversation...admittedly most of it a bit over my head. But the phenomenon...or the physics are the result of tangential forces (you can see how this got over my head pretty quickly), which causes the ball to momentarily reverse itself. PING's Erik Henrickson (author of both the driver and iron fitting articles we published) likened it to the behavior of a superball. Anyone who has ever played with one knows they are prone to suddenly switching direction - as direct result of the directionality of spin. 

 

While the behavior of a golf ball is more predictable, the underlying behavior is basically the same. So long version...it's really complicated.

 

Short version...friction adds spin until about 6 iron lofts, and then it starts taking it off.

 

At Ping, there were 6 guys in the room. 3 were PhD's. 4 guys did a lot of talking, two guys nodded their heads a lot to show they were following the conversation.  

 

Quiz: Which two were the journalists? ;-)

 

That's what I took out of that session as well - the lower the loft, the ball tends to, for lack of a better word, stick on the club face for a millisecond or two. The reduction in spin isn't huge - maybe a few hundred RPM. Josh Kinchen at Bridgestone says it's basically the difference between the edge of the fairway and the edge of the rough.  A little bit of help if you need it.  No one's claiming it will turn a guy with a 4000 RPM driver swing into a guy with a 2,000 RPM swing.

 

As for the chapstick or vaseline on the driver club face?  I spoke with Kinchen about this as well.  Don't think side to side slippery - think tacky.  Put some Chapstick or vaseline on your your thumb and then touch it to your forefinger and hold it for a second.  Then pull them apart - there's a bit of sticky to it, no? We tend to think of vaseline as a lubricant, but it's also pretty sticky stuff. The idea, as I understand it, is to keep the ball stable on the club face for an instance longer, which can reduce spin.  

 

A little.

[JudgeSmails]

good discussion here...thanks for all the info

[silver & black]

As for the chapstick or vaseline on the driver club face?  I spoke with Kinchen about this as well.  Don't think side to side slippery - think tacky.  Put some Chapstick or vaseline on your your thumb and then touch it to your forefinger and hold it for a second.  Then pull them apart - there's a bit of sticky to it, no? We tend to think of vaseline as a lubricant, but it's also pretty sticky stuff. The idea, as I understand it, is to keep the ball stable on the club face for an instance longer, which can reduce spin.  

 

A little.

 

That makes sense. Thank you for the answer.

[Kor.A.Door]

Is there actually grooves in the face or are they milled smooth to the touch, where you can see it was milled but cannot feel it?

[JudgeSmails]

Is there actually grooves in the face or are they milled smooth to the touch, where you can see it was milled but cannot feel it?

 

Not sure, noone around me carries Bridgestone equip, I"d love to try one out

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Is there actually grooves in the face or are they milled smooth to the touch, where you can see it was milled but cannot feel it?

 

The grooves are very fine - but you can feel them.  It feels more like a rough face than anything else - kinda like some of the other drivers Tony mentioned earlier. It's Bridgestone's way of adding surface texture to the club face. 

[numberonecoog]

Can't speak directly to durability, but I wouldn't be worried about it either.

 

Regarding the original question - it's actually kind of fascinating. We all know that grooves, groove design, however you want to describe it, help create spin on wedges.

 

Now you have Bridgestone telling us that milling a driver face actually helps decrease spin. And actually, this isn't just a bridgestone story. PING (surface texture on LS Tec), TaylorMade M2 (also surface texture), Cobra drivers (yup...surface texture) all say the same thing, effectively that creating friction reduces driver spin.

 

So texture (grooves) both adds and removes spin. How is this possible?

 

It has to do with loft...more specifically dynamic loft. If we start with wedge lofts and work towards longer clubs, there is a point where friction actually begins to remove spin. While it varies based on how each of us delivers the club, the point of transition generally occurs somewhere around our 6 irons.

 

When John Barba and I were at PING ahead to go over the G lineup, we discussed this topic with the PING R&D guys...15 minute conversation...admittedly most of it a bit over my head. But the phenomenon...or the physics are the result of tangential forces (you can see how this got over my head pretty quickly), which causes the ball to momentarily reverse itself. PING's Erik Henrickson (author of both the driver and iron fitting articles we published) likened it to the behavior of a superball. Anyone who has ever played with one knows they are prone to suddenly switching direction - as direct result of the directionality of spin. 

 

While the behavior of a golf ball is more predictable, the underlying behavior is basically the same. So long version...it's really complicated.

 

Short version...friction adds spin until about 6 iron lofts, and then it starts taking it off.

That makes sense. The superball is a great analogy. If you bounce it once it is fine but dont let it hit a second time or you will be running after it. Thanks for all the info. 

[Kor.A.Door]

The grooves are very fine - but you can feel them. It feels more like a rough face than anything else - kinda like some of the other drivers Tony mentioned earlier. It's Bridgestone's way of adding surface texture to the club face.

I work in manufacturing, so we do a lot of milling work and you can mill it very fine so you can see that it was milled but it's smooth, so I was just wondering if this was the case here. I haven't seen any at the stores yet.