The importance of not trusting a bad fitting

[chershey]

About 8 months ago I was actually feeling pretty good about my ball striking with my irons, but I kept reading about how important it was to get fit and I'd always played standard spec equipment. I decided to go in for a paid fitting to see if I could improve. During my fitting, the fitter, that is supposedly one of the top fitters in all of South Carolina had me try several different iron heads until I found one I liked (the Ping I e1). He used the Mizuno club optimizer to fit me to a shaft type and used that with all the different heads. At the very end of the fitting he did a quick lie board test and told me I needed my irons 1* upright. This is where it all went wrong.

 

After I received my irons, I preceded to hit several millions of balls and was slightly dismayed by the fact that my distance control was erratic because I was not striking the middle of the clubface consistently but I soldiered on because this was what I was fitted with and I figured I just need an adjustment period. A few months later I got fed up and started trying different irons in big box stores with different shafts and started to think I was using the wrong shaft because I was hitting the irons in the store better, so I ordered a different set of irons, also bent 1* upright, with a new shaft. The issue was still there. Then I started taking a hard look at my swing. Did I change something? I couldn't figure it out.

 

This brings me to last week. I went back to the fitter and explained the issues I was having to one of the guys that works there that I really like. He told me what I was experiencing could be caused by either a swing issue, improper length on my irons, or too upright of a lie angle (ding ding ding, we have a winner). A lightbulb went of in my head. Could this be the issue since I didn't have the same issue when I played with a standard lie. He offered to bend my irons for free since I was fitted there and I told him to even go further and make them 1* flat. I'm 5'8.5" (the .5 is very important to me ) in case you're wondering. I went to the range the next day and it was like I had new amazing irons again. I played a round with them yesterday and had one of my best ball striking days of all time.

 

What have I learned from all this. When you go in for a fitting, you need to understand the process better and ask a lot more questions. You shouldn't just trust everything they say. Ask to try heads with different lie angle and shafts that they don't think will fit you. Look at the results yourself. You're paying for the time. Take control of it. I also think the lie board is the worst way possible to get fitted, and many would agree, but that's a discussion for another day. When I put my measurements into the Ping website for a static fitting, it says I should be playing my irons 1 to 2 degrees flat and now I agree. Do your research and be prepared for your fitting.

[PlaidJacket]

I'd also like to know who built your irons? I'm assuming your fitter sent the specs to Ping and they shipped back a completed set. Also, did your fitter confirm the specs after they were shipped back to him?

 

My experience: my fitter didn't use a lie board. He used a couple of devices like flightscope and another smaller device set on the floor and a camera. He also used is experienced eyes of 25 years fitting. We tried several different iron heads and many shaft combos. He also used some powder in the face. We also experimented with weighting to get the proper feel and ball flight. I play Wishons with Aerotech shafts. So my fitter ordered the components and assembled the clubs himself. After he'd done everything he shipped the irons to me with a Spec Sheet inside indicating/certifying how they were built and to what specs. Very professional. I was impressed. I am even more impressed with the finished product and performance - accuracy of my irons.

[Kenny B]

I am surprised the one of the best fitters in SC would be off on the lie angle.  Even the big box stores have heads with +1 or -1 degree lies to try.  You don't normally walk out of a fitting with the fitter saying you need +1 without trying it and confirming that it's the best fit for you.  Glad you got it worked out, but I would be concerned that you have had the Pings bent and they no longer meet their color-coded spec.  Given time, they will tend to move back to their original lie angle somewhat.  If the fitter was a certified Ping fitter, I would have contacted Ping and see if they could work a deal.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

Just as a side note, the Standard lie angle for the Ping i Irons this year is Blue. This is .75° more upright than in years past. There is not at 1° up option from Ping anymore.  Just FYI....

[jaskanski]

A cautionary note here: don't trust any fitting until you've hit them and it all seems good. Personally I'd be very wary of anyone building a set to order if I hadn't been fitted specifically for them and I was happy with the results before ordering them.

The lie board test is often a rough and ready gauge on your lie angle, but it can also be misinterpreted if the face angle a club path are not taken into consideration too (one of the handier function of LM's). 

"Old school" lie board tests simply don't really cut it these days. However, I'd be surprised to see a 2 degree difference in lie make such drastic differences either and it seems rather unclear if one or both of the sets you tried were even close to specs in terms of length, weight, flex etc. If they were not, then laying the blame at the lie angle is a little premature. Besides, if your swing and set up routine is a little erratic (which is perfectly common for most handicap golfers) then a lie fitting may alter slightly from one day to the next. What the trained eye of the fitter is looking for are baselines to work from - tendencies, habits and common swing signatures that go to form a DNA of your swing. Easy if you're a pro swinger, but not so easy if you're a hack.

Pings static lie calculation is just that - static. In other words it's merely a starting point for your lie in relation to your stature, but not your swing. A dynamic lie fitting is more precise in that it tells your lie angle at impact.

Either way, get a proper fitting by all means but never lose sight of the fact that you have to be 100% satisfied with the results before placing an order. If it all starts to go wrong at any point, then start over until you get it right, or take time out to evaluate where you feel comfortable. Don't feel obligated to make a purchase simply because the fitter has given up their time. Get a second opinion if in doubt. 

[chershey]

Yep, he's been continuously rated as a top 100 fitter in the US by Golf Digest and is a top 100 fitter for both Ping and Mizuno. I did a lot of research on him before I got fitted. One reviewer said he drove from 2 hours and away and had the best fitting of this life. All the reviews are positive. I'm very confused as to how it went wrong.

 

On another note, the same place does a great job with shafts, grips, and club repair and have hooked me up with some great deals so I'm hesitant to say anything bad about them. I really like the place and the people that work there. I bought a driver for them that I wasn't fitted for and they let me take three different shafts to the course to see which one I liked best. I'm a bit of an information junkie and have learned a ton about fitting since I went through the process. I almost feel like I could fit myself at this point if I had access to launch monitor so I will never let this happen again. I've heard the owner of PXG has tried pretty much every head and every shaft on the market over the last few years, so all I need is a few billion dollars and I can try everything and guarantee I've got the best equipment for my game. Maybe someday.

 

Anyway, the clubs I just had bent with the Callaway Apex combo set that I decided to get when I wanted a new shaft. I ordered those 1* upright and they are now 1* flat. When I originally got the Pings I got them at .75* upright (blue dot) so it wasn't quite a full degree but he said I needed at a degree which I assumed to mean any future sets as well. I plan to take the Callaway's in every 3 months (I hit a ton of balls) and get the lies checked. At this point, I'm so happy with how I'm hitting them, it's hard to be mad about how my original fitting went.

[jaskanski]

Another cautionary note. As fitters, we seldom refer to lie angles as 1 degree flat or 1 degree upright for example. This is simply because not all manufacturers use the same baseline specs to start with.

For instance, the "standard" lie on a set of Pings may be different to the equivalent "standard" lie on a set of Callaways - maybe even 2 degrees of difference in some cases. So if your lie is flat with one OEM, it doesn't necessarily translate to a flat lie with another OEM.

Instead, we prefer to use the specific lie angle in degrees when fitting (e.g. 62 degrees for a 5 iron). If you're a pro, you may want each individual club adjusted for lie to get the performance you want, to the nearest 0.25 of a degree. 

Dynamic lie fitting also takes into account the variable lie contact associated with various shafts in terms of bend profile, flex, weight and length. Different shafts will not produce the same dynamic lie in many cases.

Once you have your baseline specs in physical measurements, only then can it be translated to any set of irons you wish to build.

[apprenti23]

So in summation the fitting went great, but he whiffed on lie angle, you went in after and he fixed the lie angle and you're hitting them great again? I don't understand how you can say it was a bad fitting if you're happy with the results.

[chershey]

So in summation the fitting went great, but he whiffed on lie angle, you went in after and he fixed the lie angle and you're hitting them great again? I don't understand how you can say it was a bad fitting if you're happy with the results.

Well, I guess you could say that except for the fact that I'm now playing much heavier shafts than what he fit me into, different heads, and completely opposite lie angles. Other than that he did a good job.

 

In all seriousness though, I now know that if you aren't happy with the fitted product right away you should go back and tell them and they'll usually fix it for you. There shouldn't be a long adjustment period like I was expecting.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[jaskanski]

So in summary, you ended up with totally different heads, shafts and lie angles than you were fit for?

I'm a little confused ...

Who fitted you into the set up you have now?

[chershey]

So in summary, you ended up with totally different heads, shafts and lie angles than you were fit for?

I'm a little confused ...

Who fitted you into the set up you have now?

Now, that's a long story for a different day, or I guess this day since I'm going to tell it to you now.

 

After my fitting with the Ping's I wasn't extremely happy. I was really in doubt that custom fitting was something I should have done, but there was also some doubt in my mind that maybe my swing had changed around the same time because I went through an extreme weight loss right around this time (from 200 to 180 lbs in 30 days) and thought it might be affecting my swing.

 

I set out to figure this out for myself, so I went to all 3 of the chain golf stores, that weren't my fitter, in my area to try out different clubs with different shafts. I seem to be getting the best numbers and hitting the ball the most solid with heavier weight shafts like the True Temper Dynamic Gold. I thought this may be the issue since the fitter put me in the Nippon Pro Modus 105's and that all I hit the Ping i's in. At one of the stores I tried several heads exclusively with the DG S300 shaft and really liked what I was seeing with the Callaway Apex irons, so I custom ordered a set of the combo irons straight from Callaway but with the lie angle bent 1* upright since that matched, or was closest to, what I had in the Ping's. This is really where I went wrong.

 

After going back to one of the guys that works at the fitter and explaining my issue and getting them bent flat, I now know I probably would have saved a lot of money if I had just complained about the Ping's and gotten them replaced in the first place, but it's all in the past now. As I've said multiple times it was a huge learning experience for me. I know more about club fitting at this point and how different factors in equipment can effect your swing than I ever thought I would. I've read almost every forum you can read on custom fitting and it's amazing how many people disagree on so many points. I'm just keeping an open mind when I read these forums so I can think things through in the future and make my own educated decision. Doing my research really helped me when I bought my driver and 3 wood since I knew what to look for with my numbers.

 

Now that I reflect on the whole thing, there is much more to consider. For instance, I think my swing is different now than when I started this process partially because I've hit so many balls trying to fix my issues. During my initial fitting my 7 iron swing speed was around 82 mph. When I swung a 7 iron on a launch monitor a couple of weeks ago my 7 iron swing speed was showing up around 90 mph. If I've increased my swing speed by such a high margin, maybe I've changed other parts of my swing as well. This is just conjecture and I will never know if that's a factor. What I do know now is to ask a lot more questions the next time I'm fitted and not let them cut corners. Try everything in every possible configuration. See which combo makes the most hole in ones. Pretty simple!

[apprenti23]

So many variables- you with your weight loss and possible swing change is one along with going to the different stores at different times to compare results from different days. The other variable would be hitting off of different launch monitors and simulators (unless it is Trackman you can disregard any measurements of swing speed). A few other variables would be not hitting the different shafts on the same head to compare which shaft works best for you. The final variable would be once you found the right shaft, not hitting the different heads on the exact same shaft to compare. The key to a proper comparison is eliminating variables and that is something you did not do.

 

The only thing that matters is that you found the set that works best for you and are currently happy with them!

[chershey]

I agree and understand that now. There is also a piece of this that's a little controversial that I wasn't going to bring up, but here goes. The bad ball striking that I was referring to was from striking the ball on the toe. As almost every fitter states, toe hits could be caused if your too flat at impact and not upright enough. I've read this in so many places it's unbelievable. This is one of the reasons it took me so long to consider lie angle as a source of my problems, but in doing my research I came across a different thought process. What if getting your clubs bent more upright is causing you to swing more upright to compensate? I saw a few articles like this: http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2011/03/clubs-too-upright-too-lightthat backed up the hypothesis. I've been playing golf since I was 8 (32 years ago) and have always used standard clubs so it would make sense that I would try to compensate if a club didn't look right to me at set up. I was going to bring this up to the guy I talked to at the fitting center when he told me that upright lies can cause toe hits. I figured I'd try it. Now that I've switched to flat lie angle, I honestly think I'm changing my set up because it looks better to my eye to have a flatter lie angle.

 

The results also don't lie. I use face tape to measure where I'm striking the ball. When my clubs where bent upright I had to work really hard and even set up with the ball off the hosel to strike towards the middle of the clubface. I couldn't even come close to striking towards the heel no matter what I tried to do. Now, if I set up with the ball towards the heel, that's exactly where I strike it. If I set up towards the center of the clubface, I strike it there. It's such a great feeling to hit the ball where you want to.

 

Like I said, 90% of fitters would probably argue against the thought process on this, but I think there is a whole mental piece of fitting that could be overlooked, at least there was for me. It's also interesting that many people that were suffering from toe hits got their clubs bent much more upright and the problem either stayed the same or got worse. I know it got worse for me.

[jaskanski]

Bizarre.

If someone isn't hittiing it centre of the club face and consistently hits it either heel or toe, then the first thing I would look at is club length. In fact, lie would be irrelevant at this point.

If there's one tendency that golfers tend to portray at fittings, it's that they are worse at ball striking  than they really think they are. If someone just took fitting at face value and swung the club naturally (rather than how they thought or read they should) then it would certainly make the fitting process a lot more logical and straight forward. 

I fear you are the victim of your own self doubt (and over analysis for sure) and frankly, there is no evidence to suggest that the original fitting was incorrect at that time - making the premise of a "bad" fitting as the original post suggests, a little disingenuous. 

But you're right in thinking the results don't lie - and that 90% of fitters would argue against your thought process.

[chershey]

Bizarre.

If someone isn't hittiing it centre of the club face and consistently hits it either heel or toe, then the first thing I would look at is club length. In fact, lie would be irrelevant at this point.

If there's one tendency that golfers tend to portray at fittings, it's that they are worse at ball striking  than they really think they are. If someone just took fitting at face value and swung the club naturally (rather than how they thought or read they should) then it would certainly make the fitting process a lot more logical and straight forward. 

I fear you are the victim of your own self doubt (and over analysis for sure) and frankly, there is no evidence to suggest that the original fitting was incorrect at that time - making the premise of a "bad" fitting as the original post suggests, a little disingenuous. 

But you're right in thinking the results don't lie - and that 90% of fitters would argue against your thought process.

I fully understand what you are saying. From what I've read, lengthening the club has the potential to cure toe hits and shortening the club would have the opposite effect. The only issue is that I'm not that tall (5'8" to 5'9" depending on who's measuring) and my wrist to floor measurement is only 30.5". Static fitting would put me at 1* flat with shorter clubs. It's hard for me to believe that I could need longer than standard clubs. I have tried a friends irons that were shortened .25" and were 2* upright and the toe strikes were even worse. Also, every forum I've read says that the club being more upright should cause heel strikes and too flat should cause toe hits. Here's Hank Haney explaining it in a youtube video: 

 

As far as the original fitting goes, my biggest concern is that they didn't rule out variables, as you stated earlier. He had me try different heads, and only one shaft with each head based on what the Mizuno shaft optimizer said. He then used a lie board and said I should be at an upright lie angle. He also didn't ask me to hit the clubs when they came in to verify all the numbers were good. From what I've read, fittings should be more comprehensive, shouldn't they? The fitting videos I've watched online had the person being fitted test a lot more variables. Based on what you've written so so far it seems like you would have me do a lot more during the fitting than what I did in the original fitting, correct?

[jaskanski]

Partially. The whole point of fitting is to isolate and eliminate the variables - leaving you with the constant and uniform. Once you have something that matches the constant, you have a fit.

There's no smoke and mirrors and over analysis of BS - just sound and logical interpretation of data on basic principles of physics.

As for your fitting session, I can't really comment as I wasn't there - but from the sound of it you got the basic quick and dirty fit. A lot depends on what you paid and expected, but also what you did before, during and after the fit process too. If someone came into my fitting studio and proceeded to hit 20 different clubs and shafts and second guess their own fitting parameters without asking for advice, then I'd be inclined to get them out the door and stop wasting my time pretty quickly too. 

[chershey]

Partially. The whole point of fitting is to isolate and eliminate the variables - leaving you with the constant and uniform. Once you have something that matches the constant, you have a fit.

There's no smoke and mirrors and over analysis of BS - just sound and logical interpretation of data on basic principles of physics.

As for your fitting session, I can't really comment as I wasn't there - but from the sound of it you got the basic quick and dirty fit. A lot depends on what you paid and expected, but also what you did before, during and after the fit process too. If someone came into my fitting studio and proceeded to hit 20 different clubs and shafts and second guess their own fitting parameters without asking for advice, then I'd be inclined to get them out the door and stop wasting my time pretty quickly too. 

I definitely questioned very few things and took his word for almost everything. The only time I questioned anything was when he said I needed an upright lie angle and I told him that I was confused because I was hitting the ball straight on every shot. He said that it would make my shot pattern more consistent but we could adjust later if it wasn't. Throughout this whole process I've never stopped hitting the ball straight. I've just lost distance because I wasn't hitting ball in the center of the clubface which was one variable he never checked. Here's the variables he did look at. 

 

1. Which heads did I want to try? He fully left it up to me.

2. This is the right shaft for you (only one option).

3. We should change the lofts slightly for better gapping (this made sense).

4. Let's try a lie board and see what lie you should have.

5. What grips do you like the feel of?

 

That's it. He didn't use face tape to see where I was striking it or have me try many alternatives. He's the only fitter in my area that charges money for the fitting so I have nothing to compare against unless I drive two hours away. I just left feeling that I couldn't have checked the same things myself for free at our local Edwin Watts, so maybe I shouldn't call it a bad fitting so much as an incomplete fitting.

[jaskanski]

I'm sorry to say you haven't been fitted correctly.

Without eliminating the variable of hitting the ball in the centre of the club face, there's little point continuing the fitting any further. The often overlooked fitting parameter of weight and length of shaft is a common error in golf store fittings - centre impact is the ultimate goal of any fitting - period.

[driveandputtmachine]

I have been through a few fittings.  One I would view as AMAZING, and a couple that were OK.  The Amazing fitting there was no lie board used whatsoever.  Once we dialed in the clubhead and the shaft for solid contact the then set to bending the club head to get the starting direction we desired.  I am not knocking lie boards, in a lot of cases I am sure they can provide good data.  The two OK fittings they relied heavily on the lie board, my one amazing and fitting myself I did not use one.  So in short EVERY golfer is different, and I am sure just as completely not applicable as it was for me, there are people that it is completely helpful for. 

 

 

I do not understand why a supposedly qualified fitted would finish and then say…..”Hey were done, let's check you lie, yep you need one degree upright.  Have a good day.” Would you not bend the club right then and there, have the golfer hit the ball with that lie and check ballflight and starting direction?  I would, and I am on nobodies list as a qualified fitter.