scratch vs. tour

[revkev]

Wouldn't it go the other way for the women?  You'd have to figure out the course rating for the average course that they play tournaments on (slope is unimportant because they all play to below scratch.)  My guess would be that the rating would be higher than the 72 that the average scratch player plays but lower than the 76 that the average tour player plays.

 

I know that Brittany Lincicome's handicap at my club varies between plus 2 and plus 3 - It's 7100 yards at Sea Level and she always plays the tips.  The course rating is 74.8 so we aren't talking a walk in the park from back there. 

 

I'd guess that the top LPGA players would come in at around a plus 3.  But that's an extrapolated guess.  I'm sure there's data out there for them and that someone could do the same comparison if they had access to it.  I'm equally as sure that they ladies would fare very well in the comparison - just not as well as the PGA tour members.  Still an LPGA player will be closer to a PGA tour member than a scratch male player - I'd put some money on it.

[JudgeSmails]

Wouldn't it go the other way for the women?  You'd have to figure out the course rating for the average course that they play tournaments on (slope is unimportant because they all play to below scratch.)  My guess would be that the rating would be higher than the 72 that the average scratch player plays but lower than the 76 that the average tour player plays.

 

I know that Brittany Lincicome's handicap at my club varies between plus 2 and plus 3 - It's 7100 yards at Sea Level and she always plays the tips.  The course rating is 74.8 so we aren't talking a walk in the park from back there. 

 

I'd guess that the top LPGA players would come in at around a plus 3.  But that's an extrapolated guess.  I'm sure there's data out there for them and that someone could do the same comparison if they had access to it.  I'm equally as sure that they ladies would fare very well in the comparison - just not as well as the PGA tour members.  Still an LPGA player will be closer to a PGA tour member than a scratch male player - I'd put some money on it.

 

Brittany is one of my favorite LPGA players to watch, and she seems really nice, very cool that she is a member of your club.

 

Great discussion here, I'm wondering for you guys that are, or have been scratch.....what's the biggest difference between you and me, at around a 12 handicap?  I'm thinking short game, getting up and down for par more often....maybe avoiding that 'big mistake disaster hole'

 

Curious on your thoughts

[revkev]

I can't speak for others but for me it was consistency.

 

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[sp0rtsfan86]

Strokes gained said it was mostly long game. Short games are different but not quite as much. My guess is that the difference is a bit distance and also the approach shots from 150-200 making the bulk of the difference.

[Undershooter]

Brittany is one of my favorite LPGA players to watch, and she seems really nice, very cool that she is a member of your club.

 

Great discussion here, I'm wondering for you guys that are, or have been scratch.....what's the biggest difference between you and me, at around a 12 handicap?  I'm thinking short game, getting up and down for par more often....maybe avoiding that 'big mistake disaster hole'

 

Curious on your thoughts

I'd guess it's basically the same as me vs a pro but a little bigger stretch. I don't know your game but prolly the biggest difference is long game then putting then short game. Mostly it's gonna be consistency and I'm gonna put myself in fewer bad situations than you.

 

At least that's you vs most scratch guys. I put myself in lots of bad situations and just like to hit hero shots left and right. Guess that's why I can shoot 67 or 82.

[Kenny B]

I can't speak for others but for me it was consistency.

 

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I'd guess it's basically the same as me vs a pro but a little bigger stretch. I don't know your game but prolly the biggest difference is long game then putting then short game. Mostly it's gonna be consistency and I'm gonna put myself in fewer bad situations than you.

 

At least that's you vs most scratch guys. I put myself in lots of bad situations and just like to hit hero shots left and right. Guess that's why I can shoot 67 or 82.

 

I agree with consistency.  I have played with and watched very good players, and I know they are a lot better than I am, but when we get around the green, they aren't that much better.  I am not a long hitter and I know that I could be several strokes lower if I hit it further.  I don't put myself in bad situations... usually, but the quality of my game depends on getting on the green where I can putt, and getting up and down when I don't.  I can do it,  but not consistently enough to make up for the distance loss off the tee; too many long approaches.  Once in awhile I will have a bad hole, but we all do.  My problem is that I will get a bogey, then another, and another, but don't make up for them with enough birdies.  Yesterday's round of 73 was the fluke where I was more consistent tee to green.  Even though I shot 73, I had chances to make more birdies, but didn't.  It was nice to have a boost to my confidence though, even if turns out to only be one round, and at least I know I can go lower.  

[JudgeSmails]

I'd guess it's basically the same as me vs a pro but a little bigger stretch. I don't know your game but prolly the biggest difference is long game then putting then short game. Mostly it's gonna be consistency and I'm gonna put myself in fewer bad situations than you.

 

At least that's you vs most scratch guys. I put myself in lots of bad situations and just like to hit hero shots left and right. Guess that's why I can shoot 67 or 82.

 

True, it's different for everyone.  Strength of my game is short irons/wedges, the ability to put the ball on the green from 170-200+ yards would be a big advantage over me....and consistency off the tee, I can hit some great shots down the fairway, but can also get myself in big time trouble.  

[drewneddy]

Great discussion here, I'm wondering for you guys that are, or have been scratch.....what's the biggest difference between you and me, at around a 12 handicap? I'm thinking short game, getting up and down for par more often....maybe avoiding that 'big mistake disaster hole'

 

Curious on your thoughts

 

Yeah really good question. I think I have a pretty good idea. Not all 12s are the same. But that's my dad's hcp and we play a lot of golf together. He will break 80 twice a summer from the members tees. But the biggest thing between him and me is distance. I hit it 285+ and he's 230-240 when it's running out. He has a lot of 5irons and hybrids into the greens. But we have a couple par 3s where it's 175 where he's playing and 210 where I'm at and we both have hybrids in hand. I would hit the green more often and roll in the occasional birdie on these holes. He relys more on short game and minimizing misses to get a good score... We both putt about the same. He has better putts per round because he misses more greens than I do.

 

Like I said, not all 12s are built the same. Now my brother just started and he hits it 320yds (no lie) and is a 24hcp. I think he has the natural talent to get down below 5. Needs to work on minimizing miss hits, refine his pitching and short irons (he's full club or it's a chunk) and making more 1 putts and fewer 3 putts

 

 

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[hckymeyer]

Thought this was interesting ...

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/yes-some-tour-pros-have-a-handicap-phils-is-52

 

From my observations as a 4 compared to guys at my club scratch and better it's consistency. I have the ability to hit the shots they do, but where I pull it off half the time they are 80% plus.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

Thought this was interesting ...

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/yes-some-tour-pros-have-a-handicap-phils-is-52

 

From my observations as a 4 compared to guys at my club scratch and better it's consistency. I have the ability to hit the shots they do, but where I pull it off half the time they are 80% plus.

 

 

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Hot damn it got down to +7.2 at one point. 

 

I read somewhere that the 2000ish era Tiger would've been around +9 or +10. 

[hckymeyer]

Hot damn it got down to +7.2 at one point. 

 

I read somewhere that the 2000ish era Tiger would've been around +9 or +10. 

I believe it.

 

I've always been curious what the guys who go on a run like Phil and Henrik at The Open would be for just that tournament.  -20 over 4 rounds on that course and all tournament rounds.

[JAGolfore]

Here are my thoughts.  For the tour player they will always out think you.  I am currently a +2.  At one point (in college and just after) I was a +4.  Could shoot in the 60's on just about any course.  Does that mean I was ready for the tour or even mini tours, no.  I do not and did not have the mental game to take rounds deep.  Distance is huge, but what I noticed trying to make it was the guys winning and staying out there making it did not miss from 10' and in.  Yes this changed weekly, but the most consistent guys were the ones who could putt.  I do agree that if you want to make it out there you have to be at least a +6.  And sometimes those guys do not even last long.  Its a funny game and we all love to dream.

[revkev]

Just based on the blog that started this whole thing I'd say a tour winner plays to around a plus 8 or 9 the week that he wins.  Generally speaking he's going to make up the difference between the normal plus 6 and what he's doing through putting or proximity to the hole on approaches or a mixture of both. 

 

I'm sure that the Tiger estimate is spot on right - he was ridiculously consistent in his prime and fully capable of winning tournaments even when one aspect of his game had gone sour.  Heck he was capable of winning with only one part of his game working simply because he was such a great putter and long enough to get out of most kinds of trouble.

[Kor.A.Door]

Brittany is one of my favorite LPGA players to watch, and she seems really nice, very cool that she is a member of your club.

 

Great discussion here, I'm wondering for you guys that are, or have been scratch.....what's the biggest difference between you and me, at around a 12 handicap? I'm thinking short game, getting up and down for par more often....maybe avoiding that 'big mistake disaster hole'

 

Curious on your thoughts

I'm not scratch or close for that matter, but there are several differences, the misses are smaller, they do get up and down much more often, their ball striking is better, more fairways and greens, in essence it is about being consistent up

And down the bag, you won't be scratch if you spray it all over off the tee, you won't be scratch if you miss half the greens and you won't be scratch if you don't Putt well. They are scratch because they do all of those things well.

[BigtazzGolf]

Wonder how this study would compare scratch vs other tours, LPGA, Seniors, or Nationwide.

Still think the area around the greens are where pros really separate from the rest.

Having volunteered at pro events the last few years I've learned some if not all the pros break a fairway into quarter sections (lanes) off the tee. So guess a scratch guy breaks a fairway into halves and the rest of us focus on just hitting the fairway.

This would always allow them a chance for the green whether in the fairway or just off in the rough.

Thoughts?

 

Tazz

 

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[revkev]

I'm not scratch or close for that matter, but there are several differences, the misses are smaller, they dongetbipmamd down much more often, their ball striking is better, more fairways and greens, in essence it is about being consistent up

And down the bag, you won't be scratch if you spray it all over off the tee, you won't be scratch if you miss half the greens and you won't be scratch if you don't Putt well. They are scratch because they do all of those things well.

Actually scratch players average around 10 greens per round. Touring pros 13. Guys in our category are 9 Kor if your like to compare your game to the averages.

 

Average driving distance is 285 tour, 255 scratch, 245 1-5. I know it's very tempting to think that one is longer than the average for his group but unless he is using something like game golf regularly a guy tends to over estimate his average driving distance.

 

@Big tazz I would love to see those numbers too. Mmmmmbuddy has the average carry distance for LPGA players but that's a small piece of their puzzle. I've been to lots of your events, sometimes what we see fools us. The numbers are the numbers and on average half the difference between a tour guy and a scratch player is strokes gained driving. That's a compilation of distance, accuracy and penalty avoidance.

 

Of course one wonders what would happen to the scratch guy inside the ropes and then around the green with that rough and those pin placements.

 

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[Undershooter]

Actually scratch players average around 10 greens per round. Touring pros 13. Guys in our category are 9 Kor if your like to compare your game to the averages.

 

Average driving distance is 285 tour, 255 scratch, 245 1-5. I know it's very tempting to think that one is longer than the average for his group but unless he is using something like game golf regularly a guy tends to over estimate his average driving distance.

 

@Big tazz I would love to see those numbers too. Mmmmmbuddy has the average carry distance for LPGA players but that's a small piece of their puzzle. I've been to lots of your events, sometimes what we see fools us. The numbers are the numbers and on average half the difference between a tour guy and a scratch player is strokes gained driving. That's a compilation of distance, accuracy and penalty avoidance.

 

Of course one wonders what would happen to the scratch guy inside the ropes and then around the green with that rough and those pin placements.

 

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I've played a couple courses set up for a tour event a couple of weeks before the events. From what I'm told by those who got to play the tournament(knew 1 who qualified) and guys who played the pro am, the course was much tougher in the weeks leading up than the week of. They cut the rough and slowed the greens because the players complained that it was too long and the greens too fast. Yes it was set up tough, but it was fair even before they softened it up. If that's the kind of course I got to play every week, I'd be a happy man. 

 

Inside the ropes is another story. Who knows how that would go. I'd expect I would play really well about 14 of the 18 holes and have 4 blow up holes where I just fell apart. haha maybe 5 jack the 1st green from 15 feet or something. 

[revkev]

There is no doubt that the course is tougher the two weeks leading up to tournament. I've also had that experience. The rough gets topped off for the Monday. Normally though the course gets tougher on the weekend of an event.

 

The numbers in the blog took into account normal conditions for a tour event verses normal conditions for a scratch player. The average tour course is played at a rating of 76 and the average rating of the course the scratch player is playing is 72.

 

Inside the ropes would be crazy

 

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[Undershooter]

There is no doubt that the course is tougher the two weeks leading up to tournament. I've also had that experience. The rough gets topped off for the Monday. Normally though the course gets tougher on the weekend of an event.

 

The numbers in the blog took into account normal conditions for a tour event verses normal conditions for a scratch player. The average tour course is played at a rating of 76 and the average rating of the course the scratch player is playing is 72.

 

Inside the ropes would be crazy

 

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Tougher courses for sure. Just meant that its always manicured so perfectly. A guy could get used to that and ProV's on the range   

[BigtazzGolf]

Tournament ready greens are sweet. Makes me jealous

☺️

 

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[RookieBlue7]

Just based on the blog that started this whole thing I'd say a tour winner plays to around a plus 8 or 9 the week that he wins. Generally speaking he's going to make up the difference between the normal plus 6 and what he's doing through putting or proximity to the hole on approaches or a mixture of both.

 

I'm sure that the Tiger estimate is spot on right - he was ridiculously consistent in his prime and fully capable of winning tournaments even when one aspect of his game had gone sour. Heck he was capable of winning with only one part of his game working simply because he was such a great putter and long enough to get out of most kinds of trouble.

 

In 2000, his handicap never fell below +10 for the season (average of 10 of his best 20 rounds). That's never been done before or since for an entire season. Glad I was able to witness it

[revkev]

In 2000, his handicap never fell below +10 for the season (average of 10 of his best 20 rounds). That's never been done before or since for an entire season. Glad I was able to witness it

Me also!

 

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[Xstiffshafts]

Strokes gained said it was mostly long game. Short games are different but not quite as much. My guess is that the difference is a bit distance and also the approach shots from 150-200 making the bulk of the difference.

On the delta between a scratch player and a 12, I think this is one of the most overlooked factors. There's such a massive difference in "likely outcome" between approach shots from 100y-160y (often in fairway) vs. 140y-200y (often in rough) AND the difference between hitting 9i vs. 7i from 150.

 

The player who's looking at a short-mid iron from the fairway is going to hit more greens and be closer to the hole than the player who frequently has mid-long iron/hybrid and is in the fairway less often. The first player has a) more cushion to make mistakes, because he'll have more opportunities to get the shots back throughout the round & b ) is less likely to make mistakes because he's facing more straightforward situations in favorable conditions. It's a double edged sword. It's also why tee selection can be such a crucial part of the game for a higher handicap, it's harder to improve when you're hitting hybrid into par 4s all day, and it's far less enjoyable which makes it less likely that the higher handicapper is going to put in practice time to break "90, 85, 80, etc"

 

 

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[Golfspy_CG2]

This was a good read, and a lot of the thoughts I read are ones I've read or heard before.  Always a debate as to what's more important length off the tee or short game.  Some interesting numbers to support the length, but as @CPA said, I've also witnessed the amazing short game of plus players, if they are anywhere from 50 yards and in and don't get up and down, they are upset.   

 

It really was eye opening to see the 5 to 6 shot difference between the scratch and the Tour Pro.   To me what would be interesting to hear first hand, is the thoughts of some of the PGA Professionals that just played int he PGA Championship, and what they thought of their game next to the Tour Pros.

[PMookie]

Years ago Trevino was asked this question. He said to look at it like this: you're the best at your club. Good. Now, how many clubs are in your State? How many clubs in the tri-state area around you? Ok, how many clubs in your geographic region? USA? How about how many clubs in Europe? UK? Australia? Africa? The world as a whole?

Ok. Now you just have to be the best out of ALLLLLLLL of those club champs, and THEN, you gotta beat the guys that are ALREADY on Tour...

And this doesn't account for college golfers, guys on all of the worldwide mini-tours, etc.

 

Yeah.

Next time one hears of a guy say, "I coulda played on Tour," just, "Smile and wave, boys... Smile and wave."

 

By the way, there are 2.1 million golfers at just private clubs in the US...

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

In 2000, his handicap never fell below +10 for the season (average of 10 of his best 20 rounds). That's never been done before or since for an entire season. Glad I was able to witness it

Hcp of +10 means that his average score per round was about 60? Is that correct or am I reading this incorrectly?

[Kor.A.Door]

Years ago Trevino was asked this question. He said to look at it like this: you're the best at your club. Good. Now, how many clubs are in your State? How many clubs in the tri-state area around you? Ok, how many clubs in your geographic region? USA? How about how many clubs in Europe? UK? Australia? Africa? The world as a whole?

Ok. Now you just have to be the best out of ALLLLLLLL of those club champs, and THEN, you gotta beat the guys that are ALREADY on Tour...

And this doesn't account for college golfers, guys on all of the worldwide mini-tours, etc.

 

Yeah.

Next time one hears of a guy say, "I coulda played on Tour," just, "Smile and wave, boys... Smile and wave."

 

By the way, there are 2.1 million golfers at just private clubs in the US...

 

 

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I agree somewhat, but there are some golfers, and I think we all have them at our clubs, or know someone, that could have played on tour, or at least made an attempt, for many of them it becomes a choice, do I go all in to try to make it, or do I use the education that received and pursue a career in that, I play with some extremely good golfers, and a couple of them could have made a very good effort to make it as a pro, just simple chose a different path, not to say that they would have made it as a touring pro, but could have given it a very good go.

[Sproutland]

Hcp of +10 means that his average score per round was about 60? Is that correct or am I reading this incorrectly?

Course ratings are higher on tour, so it would be closer to 66, but if he played the average club, he'd shoot low 60's without breaking a sweat.

 

 

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[PMookie]

I agree somewhat, but there are some golfers, and I think we all have them at our clubs, or know someone, that could have played on tour, or at least made an attempt, for many of them it becomes a choice, do I go all in to try to make it, or do I use the education that received and pursue a career in that, I play with some extremely good golfers, and a couple of them could have made a very good effort to make it as a pro, just simple chose a different path, not to say that they would have made it as a touring pro, but could have given it a very good go.

No doubt there are some good ones... Some could give it a go. I know of five guys that tried.. All club champs. All played in college. None ever got past the Hooters Tour. Obviously, a few could, the point is there are 2.1 million dudes in clubs. Maybe a handful actually have a shot. I'd love to know how many +6 handicaps there are around the USA that aren't on Tour... I wouldn't think many at all!

 

 

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[Undershooter]

Hcp of +10 means that his average score per round was about 60? Is that correct or am I reading this incorrectly?

Handicap is just a good way to measure a golfers potential more than give you and idea what their scoring average was. It only takes into account an average of the best rounds played out recent rounds. Also they don't take into account par, they only go off of slope/course rating and most tour course ratings are around 76ish. What that means to me, is if someone was a +10 for entire season. They scored well enough to where the average of their best rounds came out to be around 65-66 for any given point during the season. 

 

If they were playing courses that most of us play (course ratings around 72-73) they would be shooting 61-63 on average in their best rounds. 

 

Also TW scoring average in 2000 was around 67.7 I think, so I guess his worst rounds still weren't far off.