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My Experience with the WSGA Course Rating Committee


Kenny B

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Last week on Tuesday and Wednesday I observed the Washington State Golf Association (WSGA) process for rating golf courses.  Why did I do this?  Well, I was curious why I could shoot certain scores on some courses, but not fair that well on other courses with similar ratings and slopes.  I'm still not sure about that, but at least I now know (sort of) the process used to come up with those ratings.  

 

The team was led by the WSGA Director for Handicapping and Course Rating who is a WSGA employee.  The five other team members are volunteers that have gone through a training program to learn the process.  Each member has a USGA book that provides a number value for different features of the course for the scratch golfer and the 18-handicapper; for both men and women.  All the number values for the holes are crunched to come up with the values we see on the scorecards.  I didn't get into that, so how that works will be left up to those who want to volunteer and take the ratings course.  The team can either break up and rate alternate holes, or they can all stay on the same hole and rate the different teeing grounds.  We did the latter; maybe that was for my benefit so we could all be together.  

 

The criteria for rating courses assumes a scratch male golfer hits a drive 250 yards and a second shot 220 yards, whereas the bogey golfer hits a drive 200 yards with a 170 yard second shot.  For the female scratch golfer, the drive is 210 yards with a 190 yard second shot, and the drive for the bogey female is 150 yards with a 130 yard second shot.

 

These numbers are important because what we did on each hole is drive to the spot in the fairway where the scratch and bogey players would end up and measure fairway width, observe types of hazards and distance to them, and distance to OB is any.  If a bunker on the course was not within 20 yards of the landing area, it is not considered for that player.  From the tables in their book, a number is assigned for the scratch and bogey players.  Also considered are number and coverage of trees and the fairway stance difficulty.  Around the greens the team measures the green size, coverage of bunkers and bunker depth with women getting a more difficult value depending on depth.  Again, distances to hazards and OB is recorded and the tables in their book assign the number for both scratch and bogey.  Of course green speed is measured as is the depth of the fairway rough.  The team does these ratings in pairs, and after the hole has been evaluated, the pairs get together and compare numbers and if they don't agree, they resolve it immediately.  We did that a couple of times by going back to the spot on the course and re-evaluating the landing zone.

 

The first course that we rated was Horn Rapids GC in Richland, WA.  This course is the only all desert course in the state.  There are houses  on part of the course with more being built every day, but they don't come into play except for the really bad shot.  The team is measuring the green on this short par 4 #1 with bunker in front and mounding left and long.  These houses are the closest of any on the course.

 

IMG_0514.jpg

 

Check out the sagebrush that comes into play on this par 5 #5.

 

IMG_0516.jpg

 

The desert also comes across the fairway off the tee that is reachable by the scratch golfers and very close for the bogey golfers.  For scratch it is considered a forced layup.  The USGA book has a section specific for deserts.

 

From the tips this 220 yard par 3 #8 plays downhill.  The team also measures elevation change which also translates into a number from USGA table.

 

IMG_0517.jpg

 

The short par 4 #9 is difficult because the water is right next to the green on the left with a drop off on the right about 10 feet to a bunker. That tree comes into play if your are on the left side of the fairway.

 

IMG_0519.jpg

 

This course is hilly and quite long between greens to the next tee box, and while walkable, carts are recommended.  Rating this course took all day, but after the data was gathered, some of the team members played the course; one of the perks of being on the committee.

 

On day 2 the team went to the West Richland GC in West Richland, WA.  This was my very first course that I played in town, and where I  learned to play.  My teacher is still the pro there.  We played the course this last Sunday and with a sore rib muscle, I still managed to shoot 78.  It's an easy, flat course in a flood plain, and it floods most every year.  The Yakima River borders the right side of the course which is the back nine and a canal runs through the middle of #1, #9, #10, #11, and #12.  Since it floods, maintenance is difficult and as such the course is usually pretty rough.  

 

This is a picture this winter looking out at the #18 fairway from the clubhouse.  The canal is actually above water, about 150 yards from the green.

 

IMG_0400.jpg

 

The water is all gone, but the grass has not fully recovered in some spots on the course.  Here is the team on the short par 4 #10 green.

 

IMG_0521.jpg

 

Standing on the 190 yard #11 tee box looking through the grass bordering the canal.  The river is left of the green.

 

IMG_0522.jpg

 

After going through the process, I understand what they are looking for to determine difficulty of a course, but that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with the ratings and slope they come up with.  It's not a perfect model, but I think it is at least consistent in the application.  The Director said that the USGA course rating system will undergo some changes in 2018 in an effort for the all rating systems worldwide to conform to one process.  THAT ought to be interesting.

 

To sum up my experience, I now appreciate what the rating committee goes through to rate our courses.  The Director has personally rated every course in Washington State, some many times.  But it would not be possible without the help of non-paid volunteers.  One of the volunteers was local, but the others all came from the Seattle area which is over 200 miles away.  It's a constant process given how many courses there are in the state.  Most volunteers are retired, which is how they are able to contribute as much as they do.  Do I want to do this?  Ahhh, NO!  

 

 

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I love this thread. Actually I think it explains quite nicely why a player might do well on some courses but poorly on others with similar ratings.

 

Length is a factor in course rating and slope so a shorter guy may struggle with length but excell on courses that are tighter and shorter. Both courses might have the same rating under this system.

 

I will use myself as an example. I got to a 1.2 five years ago, not scratch but fairly close. I regularly played two courses at 6600 yards one got it's yardage from two monster par 5's the other from a series of long par 4's. I shot better scores on the first course because I could hit driver two woods and a mid iron in where as I was forced to hit five or six hybrid/fairway woods on the other course. Had my average drive been 250 instead of 235 that would have changed significantly.

 

 

 

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Wow Kenny I thought this was one of the more interesting threads that I've read but I guess that others aren't as interested in it.  Thanks for the great read regardless!

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I don't think there is a whole lot of interest in how the rating is determined; just what the rating and slope are.  I didn't expect much response, but I wanted to document my experience.

 

What I found interesting is that there can be all kinds of hazards on a course, but if they are not in the correct landing zone for the scratch or bogey golfer, it's like they don't exist.  The WSGA guy told me that one course spent $$$$$ on changing it's bunkers on a few holes and then asked him how much it impacted the course rating, and he told them it didn't change anything!!  I guess if a course wants to truly impact their rating, they should contact their state golf association and ask before they spend the money.

 

The other issue I had was the yardages for the scratch and bogey golfers.  I am not sure when these were determined, but they have been in effect for a long time.  Seems to me that if OEMs are giving us 13.1 more yards with new technologies, shouldn't the yardages be updates, at least a little?  Maybe that is one of the changes that is forthcoming in 2018 when the come to a worldwide rating system.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Well I sure found it very interesting. A super job writing it all up and including the pictures. Great job Kenny. I actually inquired at my course about having it re-rated. I'd certainly be interested in volunteering for it.

 

Question: What types of tools did you guys use for measuring? Tapes, lasers, gps? How did you guys measure elevations?

 

When will the new rating be provided to the courses y'all did?

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                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

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Well I sure found it very interesting. A super job writing it all up and including the pictures. Great job Kenny. I actually inquired at my course about having it re-rated. I'd certainly be interested in volunteering for it.

 

Question: What types of tools did you guys use for measuring? Tapes, lasers, gps? How did you guys measure elevations?

 

When will the new rating be provided to the courses y'all did?

The courses that were rated last week were last rated 10 years ago, so that apparently is the default for re-rating.  If a course is significantly changed, then a rating team is sent out at the clubs request.  I haven't heard that the change has been made yet, but I will check on that.

 

I'm sorry, I should have put this information in the write-up.  The team used lasers for measuring distances.  They had the Bushnell Hybrid -  laser and GPS, and both were used.  For example, the GPS was used to determine location in the fairway for the scratch/bogey tee shots and remaining distance to green to see if the approach shot yardages could get there.  Of course they compared all distances to the yardages stated for a hole by the course and measured them.  They would drive to the edge of the fairway at the tee shot distance and measure the width of the fairway and distances to tree lines, hazards, OB.  The Director was upset because Bushnell doesn't make the hybrid laser anymore, but he found a bunch of them cheap on Amazon.

 

Green speed was measured using a stimpmeter; uphill/downhill, and they have a factor to apply if the ratio is over a certain amount (sorry, don't remember what that is).  Elevation changes were measured using the app on a phone.  It can be set to zero, then drive to the low point  or up to an elevated green.  Again, there is a USGA chart for getting a number based on how much change there is.

 

If you are interested in volunteering to rate courses, I think they are always looking for new bodies.  It would be very useful and cost-effective to have people located in all regions of the state, particularly large states like yours.  I would contact your state association's handicapping and course rating committee chairman.  We have workshops to train new volunteers, and I think it is rather intensive.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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If we refer back to the scratch v tour player thread the 250 number is pretty accurate for a scratch golfer. According to an extremely large sample the average drive for a scratch player is 255.

 

I've read in numerous places that the average make golfer (bogey) hits the ball 200 with the driver. So my guess is that they won't change the yardage much of any in their new rating system.

 

Average driving distance is always a fun topic to broach. Clearly I'm one of the shortest hitters on our former. In real life I'm a sneaky long middle of the pack distance wise, certainly longer than the average 18 although I know 18s that are longer than me.

 

My average drive is 225 in the summer and 235 in the winter at sea level.

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm going to look into getting on the rating team with the TGA. I'd only be interested in courses somewhat close at hand. Maybe there is an opportunity.

Thanks again Kenny for the great post and follow up.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I'm another one who appreciated this post, thanks for the write-up.  If anyone is interested, I found a link to the USGA Course Rating Manual for 2012-2015, and find it fascinating.

http://www.ukrgolf.org/i/cat/69/USGA_Course_Rating_System_Manual_2012-2015.pdf

Fascinating, but it also made my head hurt.  It probably makes a lot more sense when experienced through a proper training program, but the range of measurements and judgement calls seems overwhelming at first glance.  Like most things, I bet when you take it one step at a time, it all works out.

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Good one Dave. Yes it's 125 pages! I was looking for this also. I've also left a phone message with our TGA rating division to inquire about learning - becoming- volunteering for rating courses.

Thanks

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I forgot to mention that the guys had a spiral bound book less than 1" thick with plastic laminated pages with all the tables and tabs to find the right table.  Seemed pretty easy for them, but the newest guy to the team has been doing this for 3 years.  They recorded all of their measurements and the corresponding numbers from the tables on a form that was one page per 9 holes.  Wasn't too bad.

 

Also, the team did not look at previous rating info before arriving at the course.  The Director specifically said that he wanted to determine the rating without any influence.  He did have one instance where the numbers were "surprising" to hime on one hole; he then looked up online to see what was decided last time, and if he concurred.

 

Good job PJ!!  Glad you are going to look into it.  I am not sure I would have the patience for it.  I could do it once, maybe twice; but then it would be a "job" and I just retired!!  I don't need a job.  yet.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Very cool read.

 

I'm actually on the list for MSGA (Maryland) to volunteer as a course rater. They have sent a couple emails recemtly to those that showed interest, that they will be contacted soon.

 

I figured it would be a lot of work. After reading your post, I was shocked to see just how detailed it is.

 

I still think it's something I would like to do, if I can make the time commitment.

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This is awesome. I had no idea how they did it other than the bogey and scratch golfer definitions. The take away though is that a course can get a much harder slope rating by putting everything around 200-250 yards out or the opposite, make a course with an easy slope that plays harder by moving bunkers/hazards just outside that landing zone.

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This is awesome. I had no idea how they did it other than the bogey and scratch golfer definitions. The take away though is that a course can get a much harder slope rating by putting everything around 200-250 yards out or the opposite, make a course with an easy slope that plays harder by moving bunkers/hazards just outside that landing zone.

Yep!  Just because a bunker is past my landing zone, doesn't mean that I won't be in it... on my next shot!   :(

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Yep! Just because a bunker is past my landing zone, doesn't mean that I won't be in it... on my next shot! :(

Or that it won't penalize the longer than average bogey golfer or shorter than average scratch player.

 

What tees did they measure from? Or is it each set of measurements from each set of tees?

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Or that it won't penalize the longer than average bogey golfer or shorter than average scratch player.

 

What tees did they measure from? Or is it each set of measurements from each set of tees?

 

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Every tee box was measured and evaluated.  They have to in order to come up with the rating and slope for all the tee.  They also rated the women not just from the forward tees.  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Every tee box was measured and evaluated.  They have to in order to come up with the rating and slope for all the tee.  They also rated the women not just from the forward tees.  

I know its a lot more work, but I think its good to have most tees rated for both men and women.  For the better women, this allows them to play back one or even two tees, and still be able to post for handicap.  Likewise for men, this allows shorter hitters to move forward, even as close as the shortest tees, and still be able to post.

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I know its a lot more work, but I think its good to have most tees rated for both men and women.  For the better women, this allows them to play back one or even two tees, and still be able to post for handicap.  Likewise for men, this allows shorter hitters to move forward, even as close as the shortest tees, and still be able to post.

Agreed.  The courses we rated had ratings for men from all tees, but one course only had ratings for women from the "White" tees to the forward tee.

 

What's curious is that for my course, there are ratings for women at all tees except from the tips.  However, the men do not have a rating from the "Red" forward tees.  I'll have to ask about that.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Agreed.  The courses we rated had ratings for men from all tees, but one course only had ratings for women from the "White" tees to the forward tee.

 

What's curious is that for my course, there are ratings for women at all tees except from the tips.  However, the men do not have a rating from the "Red" forward tees.  I'll have to ask about that.

Ours has ratings for women on the forward two tees (of 4, red, white, blue, gold), for men on the longest 3, but not the most forward.  I don't know if there would be demand for men to play the front tees, but why not make it a possibility.  I do know a small number of women who could play the blue tees, I think it would be good to rate them.  Apparently I've assigned myself a conversation to have when I get to the course later today.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

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Reston, Virginia

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Ours has ratings for women on the forward two tees (of 4, red, white, blue, gold), for men on the longest 3, but not the most forward.  I don't know if there would be demand for men to play the front tees, but why not make it a possibility.  I do know a small number of women who could play the blue tees, I think it would be good to rate them.  Apparently I've assigned myself a conversation to have when I get to the course later today.

There's plenty of seniors around me that should play from the reds. They only advance the ball 100 yards at most, but some are lethal within 10 yards.

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There's plenty of seniors around me that should play from the reds. They only advance the ball 100 yards at most, but some are lethal within 10 yards.

I had 2 complaints about Bayou.

 

1. It doesn't have adequate drainage for Florida's rainy season and that creates issues in some areas of the course year round. IMO it would have been wiser to fix that first rather than redoing the greens.

 

2. All of their groups played from a set of tees too far back. It didn't effect pace of play so much as it made people have to hit more club into the greens. There are 5 par 4's on the course weher I needed wood/hybrid on my approach nearly all the time. Some of those approaches are over water with very little ball out.

 

Sent from my VS986 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Very interesting topic! Next time out, I'm going to look at our course in this context. One thing that "puzzles" our members (basically uninformed of the intricacies of the rating process) is how the blue tee slope (6500 yds) can be 133, while the white tee slope (6150 yds) is 132. Course rating is 2.5 strokes difference, however. Mentally going over the holes, I can see that the "hazards" off the tee and around the green, are essentially the same from both tees. Being a Dye course, fairway and water hazards extend a long way along almost every hole, so the longer hitters from the blues basically have an equal chance of being in the hazard as the shorter hitters from the whites. Essentially, most of the fairway hazards cannot be hit over, just avoided. The ones that you can, both a short hitter from the whites and a long hitter from the blues, probably have an equal chance. I've really never analyzed it from that perspective before.

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I'm wondering whether length of the hole has much relevance to the slope rating independent of the existence of hazards. I'm thinking of our 6th hole on Dye's Valley, #1 handicap. Think the mirror image of Stadium 18, except put a long, wide sand trap at the slight dogleg. From the whites, its only a 200-210 carry to cut the dogleg and clear the sand. But if your drive has a line left of the sand at all, that same 200-210 carry will get into the rough (tough, heavily mounded rough), leaving a 190+ shot into a narrow green abutted by water. So one must take a line over the sand, putting the water much more into play. The blue tee longer hitter faces the same dilemma. Now if me, the white tee player goes back to the blue tees, I'd better not try the line over the sand trap, because it will take my best 225 -240 drive to clear it. But I can safely aim left of the sand, because my normal drive will not get to the rough. So, I trade one hazard for the other. But, while I can avoid either hazard equally as well from either tee, my well positioned tee shot from the blues is going to be 190-210 or so instead of 155 to 170 (dogleg factor increasing the distance). Fairways each, but a tougher shot from the blues. If distance is a slope factor, that one hole alone should account for the single digit of slope distance between the blue and white tees.

Nonchalant putts count the same as chalant putts.

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According to the WSGA course rater, length is everything in a rating.  If you want to make a course tougher, make it longer.  It's 85-90% of the rating; all of the other factors like hazards, difficulty of stance, trees, etc., make up the rest of the difficulty.

 

I'm wondering whether length of the hole has much relevance to the slope rating independent of the existence of hazards. I'm thinking of our 6th hole on Dye's Valley, #1 handicap. Think the mirror image of Stadium 18, except put a long, wide sand trap at the slight dogleg. From the whites, its only a 200-210 carry to cut the dogleg and clear the sand. But if your drive has a line left of the sand at all, that same 200-210 carry will get into the rough (tough, heavily mounded rough), leaving a 190+ shot into a narrow green abutted by water. So one must take a line over the sand, putting the water much more into play. The blue tee longer hitter faces the same dilemma. Now if me, the white tee player goes back to the blue tees, I'd better not try the line over the sand trap, because it will take my best 225 -240 drive to clear it. But I can safely aim left of the sand, because my normal drive will not get to the rough. So, I trade one hazard for the other. But, while I can avoid either hazard equally as well from either tee, my well positioned tee shot from the blues is going to be 190-210 or so instead of 155 to 170 (dogleg factor increasing the distance). Fairways each, but a tougher shot from the blues. If distance is a slope factor, that one hole alone should account for the single digit of slope distance between the blue and white tees.

 

Remember, it's not the "long hitter" or "short hitter" that determines the slope, it's the scratch player and the bogey player.  Either can be long or short off the tee.  It's what the landing zone looks like for the 250y scratch player and the 200y bogey player.  In your example of the #6 at Dye';s Valley with the 200-210 carry over the dogleg, according to the raters, the bogey golfer will not hit that shot because he can't carry it and it's too risky, so the raters will go to a spot in the fairway where the 200y drive will end up.  Since I don't know the hole, my guess would be that the bogey golfers drive may result in a second shot that is too long to get to the green (over 170y) which results in a highly difficult hole.  It's that extra length that will increase the slope, even from the Whites.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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According to the WSGA course rater, length is everything in a rating.  If you want to make a course tougher, make it longer.  It's 85-90% of the rating; all of the other factors like hazards, difficulty of stance, trees, etc., make up the rest of the difficulty.

 

 

Remember, it's not the "long hitter" or "short hitter" that determines the slope, it's the scratch player and the bogey player.  Either can be long or short off the tee.  It's what the landing zone looks like for the 250y scratch player and the 200y bogey player.  In your example of the #6 at Dye';s Valley with the 200-210 carry over the dogleg, according to the raters, the bogey golfer will not hit that shot because he can't carry it and it's too risky, so the raters will go to a spot in the fairway where the 200y drive will end up.  Since I don't know the hole, my guess would be that the bogey golfers drive may result in a second shot that is too long to get to the green (over 170y) which results in a highly difficult hole.  It's that extra length that will increase the slope, even from the Whites.

Interesting. Since length is everything what about doglegs? They'd measure out straight to the fairway and then from that spot to the green? OR do they factor in cutting the corner if it's shorter?

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Interesting. Since length is everything what about doglegs? They'd measure out straight to the fairway and then from that spot to the green? OR do they factor in cutting the corner if it's shorter?

Again, it's measured for the 250y and 200y player (210y/150y for women).  So, if the scratch player can easily cut the dogleg, they take the measurement from there.  If the dogleg is "close" (and I am not sure how far that is) to the scratch player's distance, the raters will assume that the player will not take the risk and go to the spot in the fairway that is a high percentage shot.  Same for the bogey player.  Of course trees at the dogleg also factor into the decision.

 

The decision is also similar if there is something like a creek that crosses the fairway.  If it takes close to a 250y/200y drive for men and 210y/150y for women to clear it, they consider it a forced layup, then measure the second shot from short of the creek.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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  • 4 months later...

So I am a little late reading this, but what a great article! Thanks Kenny! I always wondered how "they" came up with the ratings.

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So I am a little late reading this, but what a great article! Thanks Kenny! I always wondered how "they" came up with the ratings.

I did too.  That's why I asked to join them.  It was very informative and they were great. 

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Hey Kenny - 

Just saw this and read through it. Great info! Thanks for posting! I had also been curious about the derivations of the Rating and Slope numbers, and this shed a lot of light on the process.

 

It's also a great way to get a bit of an "insider's" view on course and hole layout (and strategy!). 

 

Couple of questions:

1. Does course/hole length have a larger effect on the Rating number or the Slope number?

2. You mentioned 'stance in the fairway' - if a course is predominantly uneven lies (I guess in the 'landing zone') does that increase the Slope number (vs the Rating)?

 

Thanks!

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