What/How Did You Practice Today?

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

4 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Raining today; no practice.

While sitting here watching golf at Kapalua Plantation course, I am coming to the realization that my biggest problem with putting might not be alignment or stroke, but green reading.  I have played the Kapalua Plantation course, and I remember that it was extremely difficult to read the break of a putt with the volcano effect along with the grain of the grass.  It was humbling.  These guys might seem perplexed at times or upset about missing a putt, but they are still making a lot of putts.

My greens are nothing like these and while I know the greens pretty well after 5 years of play, I still get fooled occasionally.  Some slopes are very obvious, but most players will under-read the break; some slopes are very subtle and I've learned where most are located,  but they still fool me with speed.  Players I play with don't see those subtle breaks at all.  I see other players completely miss the line, not because of a mishit, but because of a poor read.  Sometimes my wife will ask me which way her putt breaks (no, I don't penalize her!!).  She just doesn't see the break that's there.  

The reason I bring this up here in the Practice thread is that I'm not sure how to practice green reading.  It's certainly a skill, and I think some players are naturally better at it.  Can they be trained?  IDK.  I'm not into Aimpoint; not going there.  Any ideas for training other than just keep playing?  My wife is better at our course, but struggles along with me on a course that we are not familiar with.

Great thought. Green reading definitely a skill. I know I learn playing. Still those greens out there look one way do another. 1 thing I have learned though is I’m always looking for the water. Where are the run offs? Even if something looks like it shouldn’t break to the water....it’s going to break to the water  

[Kenny B]

3 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

Great thought. Green reading definitely a skill. I know I learn playing. Still those greens out there look one way do another. 1 thing I have learned though is I’m always looking for the water. Where are the run offs? Even if something looks like it shouldn’t break to the water....it’s going to break to the water  

I always do that at a strange course.  It doesn't here.  I live in the Twilight Zone.  It's one of the things that took me awhile to figure out.  In the desert we don't get much rain.  I think the course architect designed our greens specifically to NOT break towards the water; those subtle breaks I mentioned affect that.  Many greens have a very slight ridge that runs through some portion of the green; difficult to see, and can keep ball from breaking towards the ponds or from the side will really affect the break.  You have to know where it is.

[GolfSpy BOS]

Great thought. Green reading definitely a skill. I know I learn playing. Still those greens out there look one way do another. 1 thing I have learned though is I’m always looking for the water. Where are the run offs? Even if something looks like it shouldn’t break to the water....it’s going to break to the water  

I also try to make sure I’m closer to the hole than my opponent... then I get to see what the ball is going to do by the hole!

It’s def a skill. I love it when you can see a guy like DJ improve and turn what was considered a weakness into a strength of his game.


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[GolfSpy_SHARK]

3 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I always do that at a strange course.  It doesn't here.  I live in the Twilight Zone.  It's one of the things that took me awhile to figure out.  In the desert we don't get much rain.  I think the course architect designed our greens specifically to NOT break towards the water; those subtle breaks I mentioned affect that.  Many greens have a very slight ridge that runs through some portion of the green; difficult to see, and can keep ball from breaking towards the ponds or from the side will really affect the break.  You have to know where it is.

Wonder if it’s designed to retain water better?  I’m sure those ponds can dry up quick. There is a course called shining rock here and the 3rd hole green every angle you look you would say there is no chance in hell it breaks that way....sure as hell it does, the green looks like a bowl but it’s not.

4 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

I also try to make sure I’m closer to the hole than my opponent... then I get to see what the ball is going to do by the hole!

It’s def a skill. I love it when you can see a guy like DJ improve and turn what was considered a weakness into a strength of his game.


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You’re welcome for the read

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

5 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I always do that at a strange course.  It doesn't here.  I live in the Twilight Zone.  It's one of the things that took me awhile to figure out.  In the desert we don't get much rain.  I think the course architect designed our greens specifically to NOT break towards the water; those subtle breaks I mentioned affect that.  Many greens have a very slight ridge that runs through some portion of the green; difficult to see, and can keep ball from breaking towards the ponds or from the side will really affect the break.  You have to know where it is.

reminds me of a course here in PDX. even though it doesn't look it, all putts break towards the Willamette. took me 4 rounds to truly start believing that

[cksurfdude]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

I'm not into Aimpoint; not going there.

OK then I won't mention you might look into AimPoint (..but it has really helped this golf dude figure out where to aim his putts!)

Maybe see if you can find a yardage book for your course with detail for the greens? Also, there are apps available .. GolfLogix is one example .. that have green views; though these are by subscription.

Some GPS watches are also integrating green views into their functionality - my wife got me a Golf Buddy Aim W10 that has this feature.

[GolfSpy BOS]

OK then I won't mention you might look into AimPoint (..but it has really helped this golf dude figure out where to aim his putts!)
Maybe see if you can find a yardage book for your course with detail for the greens? Also, there are apps available .. GolfLogix is one example .. that have green views; though these are by subscription.
Some GPS watches are also integrating green views into their functionality - my wife got me a Gift Buddy Aim W10 that has this feature 

I’d be super interested to learn more about aim point. I’ve always been curious but couldn’t find any articles on how you’re actually supposed to do it.


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[Kenny B]

49 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

reminds me of a course here in PDX. even though it doesn't look it, all putts break towards the Willamette. took me 4 rounds to truly start believing that

I can understand putts breaking towards the Willamette.  It's lower in elevation than most of the areas around Portland.  My course is very close to the Columbia River and only a matter of feet above it.  Our marina is only a block or so away.

[Kenny B]

54 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

Wonder if it’s designed to retain water better?  I’m sure those ponds can dry up quick. There is a course called shining rock here and the 3rd hole green every angle you look you would say there is no chance in hell it breaks that way....sure as hell it does, the green looks like a bowl but it’s not.

The ponds don't dry up; fed automatically by pumps from the Columbia River.  The water is low now for winter; just enough for the geese and ducks... International Audubon Society golf course.  

Our greens are not that complicated so I think the architect decided that he would screw with us.

[Kenny B]

41 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

OK then I won't mention you might look into AimPoint (..but it has really helped this golf dude figure out where to aim his putts!)

Maybe see if you can find a yardage book for your course with detail for the greens? Also, there are apps available .. GolfLogix is one example .. that have green views; though these are by subscription.

Some GPS watches are also integrating green views into their functionality - my wife got me a Golf Buddy Aim W10 that has this feature.

I thought about Aimpoint, but apparently I can't feel differences through my feet; might have something to do with my right leg being 1/2" shorter than my left leg.

Let me know what you think of the GB Aim W10.  I've been thinking about getting one.  My GPS is an old GB Tour that still works fine even the battery!!  It must be more than 10 years old.  It is not supported anymore by the new OS.

EDIT:  Yardage book?    hahahaha  It's a muni!!  We have scorecards with the hole layouts; does that count?  Five years ago I was bewildered by several of our greens.  I thought about making a greens book using Google Earth shots, but that a lot of work.  It was easier the 2nd year after I played the course 150 times.  lol

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

The reason I bring this up here in the Practice thread is that I'm not sure how to practice green reading.  It's certainly a skill, and I think some players are naturally better at it.  Can they be trained?  IDK.  I'm not into Aimpoint; not going there.  Any ideas for training other than just keep playing?  My wife is better at our course, but struggles along with me on a course that we are not familiar with.

Phil Kenyon did a few  videos during the past lockdowns.   Yes,  they contain information about his putting school, but they do talk about how to practice green reading.

https://www.philkenyonputting.com/gift/79E4E4CD-C593-4351-B248-3F83C9505C2D.aspx

https://www.philkenyonputting.com/4-Part-Video-Series/3aa7ca3a.aspx

 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, B.Boston said:

I’d be super interested to learn more about aim point. I’ve always been curious but couldn’t find any articles on how you’re actually supposed to do it.


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There is some information around,  but the community is pretty tight lipped and you really need to take the class.  There is aimpoint and aimpoint express.  Express is the streamlined version that you see when players are holding up fingers in front of their face.   

The basics are that you stand behind the ball (and possibly locations between the ball and hole) and you feel the slope of the green and determine if it is 1, 2, 3% slope.   This takes time to learn how to actually feel it in your feet/legs.   Once you have determined the slope, you use your finger(s) to predict break.   If it is 2%,  you hold up 2 fingers and that gives you an aimpoint left or right of the hole.   The distance you hold your fingers in front of your face is based on green speed.  The faster the green the closer you hold your hand to your face.   

[cnosil]

@Kenny BSome more green reading videos

@B.Boston a little aimpoint info in these videos

 

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

@Kenny BSome more green reading videos

 

 

I think I have something to do this next week when I finish reviewing all of these videos.  Thanks!!  

I think I am a pretty good putter.  In reality, I'm probably not as good as I think.  I practice quite a bit.  I have good speed; rarely leaving a putt short, and rarely 3-putt... on my home course.  I struggle when I go to other courses with different conditions and different slope nuances.  I practice line and speed drills, but I need a way better determine breaks.  My practice green is relatively flat with no undulations, only very slight movement of a ball.

[GolfSpy BOS]

There is some information around,  but the community is pretty tight lipped and you really need to take the class.  There is aimpoint and aimpoint express.  Express is the streamlined version that you see when players are holding up fingers in front of their face.   
The basics are that you stand behind the ball (and possibly locations between the ball and hole) and you feel the slope of the green and determine if it is 1, 2, 3% slope.   This takes time to learn how to actually feel it in your feet/legs.   Once you have determined the slope, you use your finger(s) to predict break.   If it is 2%,  you hold up 2 fingers and that gives you an aimpoint left or right of the hole.   The distance you hold your fingers in front of your face is based on green speed.  The faster the green the closer you hold your hand to your face.   

Thanks! That’s one of the better quick summary comments I’ve seen on the topic. That seems to make sense especially to have some consistency. Back when my dad was first teaching me to putt he told me to imagine pouring a bucket of water on the green and watching it flow to the hole. I can’t honestly say I’ve ever thought about it any other way then trying to visualize the “flow” to the hole.


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[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I think I have something to do this next week when I finish reviewing all of these videos.  Thanks!!  

I think I am a pretty good putter.  In reality, I'm probably not as good as I think.  I practice quite a bit.  I have good speed; rarely leaving a putt short, and rarely 3-putt... on my home course.  I struggle when I go to other courses with different conditions and different slope nuances.  I practice line and speed drills, but I need a way better determine breaks.  My practice green is relatively flat with no undulations, only very slight movement of a ball.

Hope they help.  Didn't post the videos on pace and startline; just the ones that talked about reading greens. The ones that talk about targetting are more about using some visual options as they influence your read.   The two part david orr videos go a bit into assessing why you missed.   In my mind green reading is about matching everything up.  Mathematically a difference course shouldn't matter;  Given a green speed, slope, and ball speed the ball will break the same no matter the course.   What probably happens is that when you go to another course, the green speeds are different and you haven't built the experience/feel to make the adjustment.  

[edingc]

Back at the range this morning for two buckets. Few goals for today:

1. Took the SpeedZone Xtreme along. Between the new RADSpeed and the PXG 0211, I've been eyeing a new driver. I wanted to see how the numbers looked on my FlightScope Mevo to see if I "needed" something different.
2. Swing with the intent to swing faster. Something borrowed from Fit for Golf. I've noticed that when I consciously try to accelerate through the ball, I swing faster than when I just feel like I swing as fast as I can from the top.
3. Work on a faster backswing and better wrist set.

It was very cold this morning when I started (sign on the highway said nine degrees), so my hands unfortunately started to get cold about 20 balls in. I hit too many drivers after warming up with my gap wedge (40 drivers in total), which really tired me out. Not smart in the least bit as after the first bucket I was wiped and the rest of the session was not ideal.

Had a blast with the SZX. I'm going to stay with it at least for the beginning of the year, and maybe longer if I can get on a Trackman to confirm some numbers. My biggest concern is that I launch it a little too low, but with range balls it's really hard to know how accurate the Mevo is. My driver swing has come a long ways since last summer, and over the 40 swings I put up some really good numbers, including breaking 160 MPH ball speed twice.

I love seeing the progress in my swing speed and ball speed numbers. 110 used to be an unheard of number for me - when I joined MGS in late 2018, I was around 98-100 on my fastest swings and 94-95 on average. I had a few at 113 and 114 today, hopefully with warmer weather I can push that up a bit more.

I didn't have a great day with my irons and hybrids, with exception to my Epic Flash 4 hybrid (turned to 20 degrees) that I was just crushing for some reason:

I do think a shaft change might be in order for that club. The stock Tensei AV Silver leads to some moon balls with excessive spin, though I really don't need more distance out of it. But perhaps a slightly more stout shaft would bring launch and spin down a bit so I could loft back to 21 degrees. Just a thought.

Overall, a very good session. I'm still struggling a bit to get proper turn in the backswing. I started really great today but  toward the end of the session I ended up dumping quite a few fat ones into the mat because I didn't turn much on the way back. Oh well, progress is progress and it's something to focus on for the rest of the winter.

[tchat07]

Putting putting and more putting. Currently my "workout" has been to warmup first with one handed putts. Follow that up with 10 from 3, 6 and 9 feet. Then have to connect on a Putt Out Perfect Putt from 5 feet.

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[kardboard.kid]

Still need a screen and dark side covering. Have garden furniture pillows on the one side. The practice net was a cheap one from Walmart. You can see a hole where it didn't stop anything. Part of my test area for the 3I
Not pretty, but effective
Also working on my putting stroke

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[cksurfdude]

23 hours ago, B.Boston said:

I’d be super interested to learn more about aim point. I’ve always been curious but couldn’t find any articles on how you’re actually supposed to do it.

Have you checked out the AimPoint website? Some info on there, plus .. if you're interested .. a map to find an instructor in your area.

I haven't looked on YouTube but I've heard there are some vids on there about it.

It's actually easy to learn but, like any new skill, takes some time and practice to develop a good "read" of the slope.

[GolfSpy BOS]

Have you checked out the AimPoint website? Some info on there, plus .. if you're interested .. a map to find an instructor in your area.
I haven't looked on YouTube but I've heard there are some vids on there about it.
It's actually easy to learn but, like any new skill, takes some time and practice to develop a good "read" of the slope.

Yeah I feel like it’s a technique I would want to learn in a class setting where I knew it was exactly a 1, 2, or 3 finger grade and got to see it in action there.


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[cksurfdude]

22 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Let me know what you think of the GB Aim W10.

Only a few uses so far, but so far am really liking it!

Easy to read screen, great battery life, reasonably light, came with two bands (black plus red, white & blue), easy to update.

The "course view" screen is a great feature, it shows you the current hole layout with distance arcs both off the tee and approach to the green.

The "green view" screen is interesting - shows a heat map style topo of elevation changes - but doesn't actually mark your specific location on the green at that moment.

There are two minor "cons" - there's no option to turn off a vibration when the watch senses you're at the next tee (strong enough to be annoying imho); and moving from screen to screen is a simple swipe with a finger but the response is slow (possible it's my specific unit?).

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, B.Boston said:

Yeah I feel like it’s a technique I would want to learn in a class setting where I knew it was exactly a 1, 2, or 3 finger grade and got to see it in action there.


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What they will teach you in class is to use a digital level that shows slope and practice learning the feel.  I have also seen people build ramps that you can set the slope and practice learning the feel at home..

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357

 

[GolfSpy BOS]

What they will teach you in class is to use a digital level that shows slope and practice learning the feel.  I have also seen people build ramps that you can set the slope and practice learning the feel at home..
 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357
 

That makes a ton of sense. With that sort of science based approach learning the right feel of the slope is probably the first thing you need to do. The more I learn about it the more interesting is becomes.


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[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Been doing a lot of NTC and planemate work. Got to range for first time in a few weeks. Took a video of last 4 shots with 5i. Contact was solid and good cut shots, but my mechanics are off. Didn’t realize stance was open. Felt closed at address. Shoulda used my stick. Still swaying and a bit of a chicken wing. Also hit some drives and I just don’t feel like I am getting any distance. Same with 3H and 3w, seemed to be going same distance. Also did some 9-3 swings to feel good contact and before the range had a good short game session. 
 

 

[cksurfdude]

7 hours ago, edingc said:

My biggest concern is that I launch it a little too low, but with range balls it's really hard to know

Just a guess, but it's possible the ball flight was also affected by the cold, dry air..? 

[cksurfdude]

2 hours ago, B.Boston said:

Yeah I feel like it’s a technique I would want to learn in a class setting where I knew it was exactly a 1, 2, or 3 finger grade and got to see it in action there.

I learned in a very hands-on clinic - really is the best way, imo!!

[cksurfdude]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

What they will teach you in class is to use a digital level that shows slope and practice learning the feel.  I have also seen people build ramps that you can set the slope and practice learning the feel at home..

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357

Two quick FYIs to add... a 10" level, as the one cnosil linked to is, is the size recommended by my AP instructor; and be sure it reads/displays "% Slope" (or could be called "Grade").

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, rbsiedsc said:

Been doing a lot of NTC and planemate work. Got to range for first time in a few weeks. Took a video of last 4 shots with 5i. Contact was solid and good cut shots, but my mechanics are off. Didn’t realize stance was open. Felt closed at address. Shoulda used my stick. Still swaying and a bit of a chicken wing. Also hit some drives and I just don’t feel like I am getting any distance. Same with 3H and 3w, seemed to be going same distance. Also did some 9-3 swings to feel good contact and before the range had a good short game session. 
 

 

It's nice to get outside, isn't it?  I'm seeing more of your OTT move than I saw in your recent indoor practice. Probably being outside and the "hit the ball" complex.  Your first move from the top is with your upper body.  Swing sequence is a little off.

When you make your practice swing and cast, then rotate through hitting the ball, it's much better.  You should practice that move a lot more.  At the top of the backswing you should be starting your forward move with your legs as you cast towards 8 o'clock. The feeling you want is that your back is facing the target as long as you possibly can during the downswing, then rotate as fast as you can.  It's going to feel weird at first, but the more you do it, the better it will feel.  Golf is hard.

FYI, my wife and I are going to Redtail sometime in the next couple of weeks.  I have a Marriott certificate that expires end of January.  Don't have a date set yet, but will have to be mid-week.  Maybe we could meet up for a howdy.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

It's nice to get outside, isn't it?  I'm seeing more of your OTT move than I saw in your recent indoor practice. Probably being outside and the "hit the ball" complex.  Your first move from the top is with your upper body.  Swing sequence is a little off.

When you make your practice swing and cast, then rotate through hitting the ball, it's much better.  You should practice that move a lot more.  At the top of the backswing you should be starting your forward move with your legs as you cast towards 8 o'clock. The feeling you want is that your back is facing the target as long as you possibly can during the downswing, then rotate as fast as you can.  It's going to feel weird at first, but the more you do it, the better it will feel.  Golf is hard.

FYI, my wife and I are going to Redtail sometime in the next couple of weeks.  I have a Marriott certificate that expires end of January.  Don't have a date set yet, but will have to be mid-week.  Maybe we could meet up for a howdy.

Sounds awesome! Let me know for sure! Midweek may be rough but I could have a sick day.