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A question for everyone


MmmmmmBuddy

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Hi everyone.

I have a theory to posit on the group.  The “other” site recently sent some of their members to The Titleist Oceanside test facility to be fit for the new 917 line of drivers. The catch was that the participants had to be owners of the previous generation 915 driver.  These individuals were fit outside by Titleist master fitting pros, using all of the latest technology and shaft options that are not readily available for fitters out in the world. 

The results were, predictably, better with the 917 vs the 915, but only just slightly.

 

My question is, Why introduce a product that requires such professional tuning to get marginally positive results? We all know the benefits of being properly fit for golf equipment.  For most people, the type of fitting that is required to make significant gains with this product will be hard to find, and cost prohibitive. That means that a VERY large percentage of people that purchase this product will have an under-performing golf club.

It seems to me that in order to make this driver perform at its peak, it is imperative that a player go through a very advanced fitting at an exclusive fitting center. And even then, the gains to be had over the previous version are marginal at best…

Doesn't this speak to the quality of fitting vs the quality of new drivers?

Full disclosure, I work in the golf business, and have since 1997. I have owned several Titleist drivers and iron sets, as well as countless wedges and Scotty Cameron putters. I have no disdain for the Titleist brand. If anything, I have become more brand agnostic as I have grown older.

 

Sorry for rambling…  I get off on a tangent occasionally..

 

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  

Driver - Ping G430 Max 9° | Ventus Blue TR 
Hybrid - :srixon-small: ZX 16° & 18° | GD Tour IZ S

2 Iron - :srixon-small: ZU65 17° | AeroTech SteelFiber 110icw S

Irons -  :srixon-small: ZX7 MKII  4-Pw | TTDGTI S400, std length  1° flat
Wedges - :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Tour Rack 50° 54° 58° | TTDGTI S400, std length 1° flat

Putter -  L.A.B. Golf Link.1 | LA Golf P135 shaft | Garsen Quad Tour grip
 

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I wonder if it has anything to do with them being publicly traded now? They wanted something fancy to show off for the new season when they will have to answer to share holders.

Driver:   :callaway-small: Epic 10.5 set to 9.5 w/ Tour AD-DI 44.5

FW:   :cobra-small: F6 baffler set at 16º

Hybrid:  NONE
Irons:   :taylormade-small:  3i 2014 TP CB  4-PW 2011 TP MC w/ TT S400

Wedges:   :nike-small: 52º :nike-small: 56º  :edel-golf-1: 60 º w/ KBS C-Taper XS Soft-stepped

Putter:   :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne 34 inches Gold dot

 

 

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I think it's always going to fall under the category of "marginally better". Possibly what this comes down to is, the marketing need to add technology (not necessarily needed) to convince the public you've actually done something better. If it's not bigger and flashier, why even consider it?

Yo #JustPlayBetter


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I think this goes to show that clubs are really maxed out these days. I think the great thing about the 917 is the increased adjust-ability. Its not likely you will see increased balls speed and distance because of the limitations placed on clubs. I personally like the look sound a feel of the 917 vs 915. I did a demo and produced identical numbers but from the stand point of look sound and feel I would switch it I were buying a new driver.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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I think this goes to show that clubs are really maxed out these days. I think the great thing about the 917 is the increased adjust-ability. Its not likely you will see increased balls speed and distance because of the limitations placed on clubs. I personally like the look sound a feel of the 917 vs 915. I did a demo and produced identical numbers but from the stand point of look sound and feel I would switch it I were buying a new driver.

A perfectly great reason to buy a new club.  I do it all the time.

 

Don't you worry about missing out on potential performance? Since it seems that the only way to unlock the true potential of these drivers is to go through a substantial fitting, I would be worried. 

 

I suppose that it would be the same for most companies clubs at this point.  

 

I was just wondering.

Driver - Ping G430 Max 9° | Ventus Blue TR 
Hybrid - :srixon-small: ZX 16° & 18° | GD Tour IZ S

2 Iron - :srixon-small: ZU65 17° | AeroTech SteelFiber 110icw S

Irons -  :srixon-small: ZX7 MKII  4-Pw | TTDGTI S400, std length  1° flat
Wedges - :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Tour Rack 50° 54° 58° | TTDGTI S400, std length 1° flat

Putter -  L.A.B. Golf Link.1 | LA Golf P135 shaft | Garsen Quad Tour grip
 

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I have a lot I could say about this. And maybe I'll add more tomorrow when I'm at an actual computer and can type on a real keyboard.

 

MmmmmmBuddy. To be clear right off the bat, I see where you are coming from and don't disagree with you completely.

 

Full disclosure, I went to a full private indiduval fitting (paid by me) for this driver. I hit a stock D2 10.5 Diamama 50 g Regular shaft to start and get some baseline Numbers. This is actually as close to my previous set up as we would get. Also I think it's bout as stock as you can get with this driver.

 

My Trackman numbers were very similar to my current at the time driver. In all honesty maybe a few yards shorter. But my swing wasn't feeling great and I had just finished walking and playing 18 holes. So fatigue may have factored in.

 

After trying several different shaft and head combo configurations. Rhe one that worked best for me and by that I mean providing 15 yards more carry and 21 yards more distance than my current set up was a D3 9.5 Diamama 50g Stiff shaft set to the std A1 and neutral surfit cog.

 

This is a combo I would have never dreamt of being the best for me. It all came down to spin. I was getting spin in the 4000 plus with the original setup. This one was 2400.

 

So my experiemce kimd of backs up your thought that without a full fitting by a knowledgable fitter you may not see any significant gains.

 

That said. Too me it was woth the extra $100 to make sure I was buying the correct version that would perform the best for me. I truly believe there are qualified fitters near just about abyone that could perform just such a fitting.

 

Anyway those are my main thoughts. I have some more....ha yes I really do....that I'll post Tomorrrow.

 

But one final thing and you touched on if in your second post. This can probably bE saod for all the drivers with multiple adjustability out there from all companies.

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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I have a lot I could say about this. And maybe I'll add more tomorrow when I'm at an actual computer and can type on a real keyboard.

 

MmmmmmBuddy. To be clear right off the bat, I see where you are coming from and don't disagree with you completely.

 

Full disclosure, I went to a full private indiduval fitting (paid by me) for this driver. I hit a stock D2 10.5 Diamama 50 g Regular shaft to start and get some baseline Numbers. This is actually as close to my previous set up as we would get. Also I think it's bout as stock as you can get with this driver.

 

My Trackman numbers were very similar to my current at the time driver. In all honesty maybe a few yards shorter. But my swing wasn't feeling great and I had just finished walking and playing 18 holes. So fatigue may have factored in.

 

After trying several different shaft and head combo configurations. Rhe one that worked best for me and by that I mean providing 15 yards more carry and 21 yards more distance than my current set up was a D3 9.5 Diamama 50g Stiff shaft set to the std A1 and neutral surfit cog.

 

This is a combo I would have never dreamt of being the best for me. It all came down to spin. I was getting spin in the 4000 plus with the original setup. This one was 2400.

 

So my experiemce kimd of backs up your thought that without a full fitting by a knowledgable fitter you may not see any significant gains.

 

That said. Too me it was woth the extra $100 to make sure I was buying the correct version that would perform the best for me. I truly believe there are qualified fitters near just about abyone that could perform just such a fitting.

 

Anyway those are my main thoughts. I have some more....ha yes I really do....that I'll post Tomorrrow.

 

But one final thing and you touched on if in your second post. This can probably bE saod for all the drivers with multiple adjustability out there from all companies.

I have just recently started some on the launch monitor thing. A guy I know owns a well equipped independant shop and has one. I was messing around last week and tried the 917 against my 915 D-2. With the same shaft which is a Diamana 60 R flex there was no difference. In fact I did better with my 915. I have mine set on the A-2 setting with 4 grams of lead tape on the sole at the back left. Never could duplicate the feel or consistancy with the 917 as I get with mine. Really all this weight adjustment is nothing us old school guys have not been doing with lead tape for years. Like someone else mentioned maximum legal COR has been met for years so the only thing left to do is mess with weight and weight placement

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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For some, I think we are subliminally conditioned to believe that the next new thing would make a difference. For the few percentage it may make a difference through advance fittings, but for the rest of the majority that new and shiny toy in our bag will only make us feel better about ourselves even though it won't make a whole lot of a difference from our previous toy...IMHO

 

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Driver:   :taylormade-small: Sim2 Max w/ Fujikura Motore X F3 shaft

FW Wood:   :cobra-small:  F9 wood 14.5* 

Hybrids:  :taylormade-small: Sim2 Max 3 Hybrid & :nike-small: Vapor Flex 4 hybrid  

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z565 - 7 thru PW & ZU85 - 5 thru 6 with Recoil ZT9 F4 shafts                                            

Wedges:   :cleveland-small: RTX4 52*, 56*, 60* 

Putter:  Scotty Cameron M2 Newport

Ball:  :Snell: Black & :titelist-small: Pro V1

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Do you think that Titleist did this because they thought there would be a larger difference?  If all of the members were fit for their 915, then the results would be as you stated.  If some members bought OTR without fitting, I could see where Titleist would be able to say that the 917 was significantly better.  Apparently, the results showed that they were all fit for their 915.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I'm seriously considering the 917 for next season. I currently play a 913 D3 set at neutral. It works great when I'm on my swing.... not so much if I'm not. I average 240-250 yards off the tee. At times, I can get it out 260+ on a good day. At 57 years old.... I'll take it! To be honest, I just "want" a new driver.  B)

 

I'm not sure I will/would notice much difference with the 917.... fitted or not.... and I don't care!  ;)

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I don't play any of the Titleist drivers, but I know 3 guys that went to a fitting to try out the 917 (they get them for free playing for the team)

They all kept the 915 as there was no improvement with the 917.

 

And I think a few other golfers here have had the same experience.

 

So a marginal performance gain in this case is probably the most you'll get out of it (based on current user comparisons of course).

:cobra-small: SpeedZone 9* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60 S
:callaway-small: X2 Hot 3 Deep 14.5* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 S
:taylormade-small: JetSpeed 5W 19* w/ Matrix Velox T 69 S OR :adams-small: Super LS 3H 19* w/ Kuro Kage Black 80 S
:mizuno-small: JPX919 Forged 4-PW w/ Modus3 105 S
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 50/08F, 54/14F & 58/08M w/ Modus3 115 Wedge
:EVNROLL: ER1 34" w/ SuperStroke Fatso 2.0
MfleKCg.jpg Pro / 9dZCgaF.jpgH2NO Lite Cart Bag / :Clicgear: 3.0 / :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX7 Pro LRF

My reviews: MLA Putter // Titleist SM7 // PING i500 // PuttOUT

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I kind of disagree in some ways. Yes a proper fitting is good, but I'm guessing that those who had the 915 probably were using it for a while so they had probably messed and messed with the settings until they found what was right, I don't trust "fittings", how many times have we said or read here that the numbers in the fitting weren't even close on the course, you have to tweak and fix it so it fits what you are wanting to see. So I guess most of them had the optimum settings for the 915, the difference with the fitting is that you can get the settings very close if not optimal from the start, instead 4 or 5 rounds into the new club on your own, I think most of us know what the ball flight that we are looking for is, so we move our weights, and hosel adjustments to meet that flight, and I'll bet in most cases, it will be very close to what the fitter would suggest.

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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I think if you currently play a well fit driver from the past 10 years then any new driver is only capable of marginal gains.

 

You may see additional forgiveness, or more distance on off center hits. But again if you are properly fit into your current club then anything new can only at best be marginally better.

 

For some of us that margin can be pretty small and we still pull the trigger. For others that margin must be wider before dropping the cash.

 

Either way until the day companies finally say "we are done making drivers, this is as good as it gets" I'll keep trying to find something better than what I currently play.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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10 years? There has been a ton of performance (launch and spin) optimization over the past 10 years.

It depends on the player.  For most of you guys with higher swing speeds, I'd say that maybe it's 5 years.  You will probably see more improvement over drivers older than that.  However, for slower swing speed players, I think you can go back further than that without seeing significant improvement.  Oh, the forgiveness will be much better on the newer clubs, and that's certainly a reason to upgrade, but hitting old and new dead on the sweet spot doesn't really make much difference in distance.  I know, I've tried.  As an example, my wife pulled out her persimmon head PowerBilt driver just for fun last year and hit a drive that went the same distance as her TaylorMade that is a couple years old.  The difference is that she hits her TaylorMade the same each time; not so with the PowerBilt.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I'm seriously considering the 917 for next season. I currently play a 913 D3 set at neutral. It works great when I'm on my swing.... not so much if I'm not. I average 240-250 yards off the tee. At times, I can get it out 260+ on a good day. At 57 years old.... I'll take it! To be honest, I just "want" a new driver.  B)

 

 

 

Yep - this is it.  Sometimes we juste WANT a new driver. 

 

Another way of looking at it -- maybe the 917 isn't supposed to be an upgrade for 915 users.  Maybe it's there to compete against the new Callaways, TaylorMades and Cobras. I think that's part of the equation. Sure they'd love it if everyone who gamed a 915 turned them in and bought 917's, and I'm sure some will, but I believe in the big picture it's a product designed to compete with the F&B's of the 2017 models of the other guys and aimed at anyone who is looking to buy a new driver for 2017.  

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
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I tend to think that we've lost touch with reality in the golf world...

 

Toyota releases a new Camry every year, but how many people get a new Camry every year expecting it to be vastly superior to last year's Camry? You get a new car when you need (or possibly want) one - same should hold true for golf clubs.

 

For example, I play Titleist 712MB irons. No reason to get new ones until these wear out. They are very similar to the 680's or 695's or whatever, and I'm sure that the 716's are no different either. When they wear out, I'll buy whatever number Titleist has on their MB's that year.

 

 

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I had a driver fitting about six months ago with a guy who has twice been TMags fitter of the year. He knows me and my game and we had everything imaginable available. After an hour we found one shaft head combination that produced 4 yards over my current gamer. We have since been able to mitigate those yards by putting in different shaft in my G30.

 

I greatly prefer the sound and feel of the M1 to my G30. I'm more consistent with the G30. Its staying in the bag. I'm far better off investing my time and energy getting better with my fairway woods and hybids. After 2 years of hard work I'm starting to see some real progress there.

 

I think that drivers are pretty much maxed out. So unless you haven't been fit there isn't all that much to gain.

 

Sent from my VS986 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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My question is why even have adjustable drivers if you are getting custom fit? I mean if the fitter measures spin rates, club head speed, smash factor and every other perimeter and builds you the optimal performing club, why would you need to adjust anything later?

 

It seems to me OEM's should be marketing their drivers by saying "the adjustability if our drivers allow golfers to dial in their optimized performance without a fitter."

 

Adjustable clubs should be marketed for ease of adjustment. Sell a head with two different flex shafts as a kit and the player can experiment all they want. If I pay for a fitting and have to later adjust 4 different sliders on the bottom of the club, what good was the fitting?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using MyGolfSpy mobile app

WITB:

Stan Thompson “Reactionizer” persimmon woods 1-4

Spalding Tour Edition 3-PW

Spalding Top-Flite E.V.A. Sand Club

Rife Legend Z Putter

 

 

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I tend to think that we've lost touch with reality in the golf world...

 

Toyota releases a new Camry every year, but how many people get a new Camry every year expecting it to be vastly superior to last year's Camry? You get a new car when you need (or possibly want) one - same should hold true for golf clubs.

 

For example, I play Titleist 712MB irons. No reason to get new ones until these wear out. They are very similar to the 680's or 695's or whatever, and I'm sure that the 716's are no different either. When they wear out, I'll buy whatever number Titleist has on their MB's that year.

 

 

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I agree. I bought my 913 new. There is nothing wrong with it, other than a few scuffs, which is to be expected of a 4 year old driver that gets quite a bit of play.  I have gamed Mizuno MP 64's for the last 4 years.... and I have no reason or desire to buy new irons. My putter is a Rife Aussie that I have gamed for 8 years. My fairway woods are Titleist 906F's.... 3W and 5W that I've had for at least as long as my putter. My wedges are Vokey SM4's .... 58* - 54* - 50* which I bought new in 2011, I think is when they were released?

 

I don't need a new driver..... I might play around with a different shaft in the 913 instead of buying the 917. And.... maybe I'll just go ahead and get something new and shiny... just because. :D

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My question is why even have adjustable drivers if you are getting custom fit? I mean if the fitter measures spin rates, club head speed, smash factor and every other perimeter and builds you the optimal performing club, why would you need to adjust anything later?

 

It seems to me OEM's should be marketing their drivers by saying "the adjustability if our drivers allow golfers to dial in their optimized performance without a fitter."

 

Adjustable clubs should be marketed for ease of adjustment. Sell a head with two different flex shafts as a kit and the player can experiment all they want. If I pay for a fitting and have to later adjust 4 different sliders on the bottom of the club, what good was the fitting?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using MyGolfSpy mobile app

The adjustability makes fitting easier and gives a greater variety of possible lofts.

 

Sent from my VS986 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I kind of disagree in some ways. Yes a proper fitting is good, but I'm guessing that those who had the 915 probably were using it for a while so they had probably messed and messed with the settings until they found what was right, I don't trust "fittings", how many times have we said or read here that the numbers in the fitting weren't even close on the course, you have to tweak and fix it so it fits what you are wanting to see. So I guess most of them had the optimum settings for the 915, the difference with the fitting is that you can get the settings very close if not optimal from the start, instead 4 or 5 rounds into the new club on your own, I think most of us know what the ball flight that we are looking for is, so we move our weights, and hosel adjustments to meet that flight, and I'll bet in most cases, it will be very close to what the fitter would suggest.

You are sorta right in my case. I can fit myself. On mine according to the sheet there were settings that I did not even consider going to. I changed it among three. Got it to the loft and setting I wanted. Knew it needed to have a little weight in the heel to slow down the sidespin some since I hit a cut which is a self taught anti hook swing for me. I would say your last paragraph would be correct too or at least for me. My friend (who has since retired) was a heck of a fitter and teacher. We did a lot of R&D for Infiniti golf and Harrison. On fitting me we usually came up with the same conclusion. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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My question is why even have adjustable drivers if you are getting custom fit? I mean if the fitter measures spin rates, club head speed, smash factor and every other perimeter and builds you the optimal performing club, why would you need to adjust anything later?

 

It seems to me OEM's should be marketing their drivers by saying "the adjustability if our drivers allow golfers to dial in their optimized performance without a fitter."

 

Adjustable clubs should be marketed for ease of adjustment. Sell a head with two different flex shafts as a kit and the player can experiment all they want. If I pay for a fitting and have to later adjust 4 different sliders on the bottom of the club, what good was the fitting?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

Adjustable heads are probably a major convenience for the manufacturers -- they have far fewer SKU's to deal with if one head be be adjusted to a variety of lofts and lies.  It's fun as a player to tweak and experiment, but I gotta believe it's a ton less expensive for everyone in the change to have just one head.

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

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The adjustability makes fitting easier and gives a greater variety of possible lofts.

 

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Unfortunately to increase loft in adjustable hosel drivers, you are also changing the face angle, making it more open as loft increases.

 

A better solution in a custom fitting setting would be using a different loft head that way the face angle is preserved.

 

 

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Adjustable heads are probably a major convenience for the manufacturers -- they have far fewer SKU's to deal with if one head be be adjusted to a variety of lofts and lies. It's fun as a player to tweak and experiment, but I gotta believe it's a ton less expensive for everyone in the change to have just one head.

Bingo! Tons saved in tooling if manufacturers only make a 9* and a 10.5* adjustable head. A short cut that sacrifices face angle under the guise of innovation. Much more accurate to fit a player to the correct lofted head, not open up a 10.5* to make it a 12*.

 

 

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@Deejaid you do understand that your suggestion has the potential to significantly increase the cost of drivers?

 

Adjustability was originally used for fitting. Use it does reorientated the face angle and that is disturbing for some players. There are fixed heads out there for those whom it disturbs. Most won't notice that angle or will get used to it if they are cracking drives down the middle.

 

Cost is a factor for both the Manufacturer and the Consumer.

 

If cost isn't a factor there are options available to the Consumer that avoid an adjustable head. Just make sure the fitter is the builder and that he doesn't let you leave with it if the numbers you produce don't replicate your fitting numbers once it's ready.

 

I'm not seeing adjustability as a great plot. I'm seeing it as a win/win.

 

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That's a very good topic MmmmBuddy.

I'm not all that technical when it comes to golf because I don't really care all that much what the numbers and such say. I use my eyes and hands to tell me what's good or not for me. I play custom fit and built irons (Wishon + AeroTech) and love them. Best I've ever played/owned. However, I've had one and only one custom fitting for a driver. It was for the Wishon 919THI. Beautiful driver in all aspects. I'm not sure what went wrong but the club/fit was a total bust for me. This head is non-adjustable and is custom ordered and bent/weighted to spec. Many shafts were tested also. Now this is huge in my opinion; I was fit indoors. All the numbers etc. looked great and spot on when we wrapped up the fitting. When I received the club a week later it was like I entered the twilight zone. Nothing worked. Nothing! Luckily for me my fitter guarantees all the clubs he fits and builds. Either he'll make them right, try another club, or return your money. No questions asked. I returned the club because my fitter is 4 hours away. My fitter is a top rated professional (award winner) by his peers in the business so I have complete confidence in him and have used him since. Great guy. Without any data to backup my claim I believe my fitter just missed it some how. It's also possible that the Wishon design of the head just didn't work for me in the "real world". The 919 THI has a straight face from sole to crown. There is no roll to it. That is certainly different for sure. In conclusion I believe that irons can be more easily fit indoors than a driver. The driver is just a different animal. Therefore, I'm still playing my stock-OTR 2014 SLDR because it just works. I also believe there isn't a newer driver on the market that can boost my distance or accuracy by any great amount. I tried a few newer drivers this past summer only to keep the SLDR in my bag. I can fit myself into a driver with enough "tinkering" and shaft selections. Newer isn't always better. But new is always fun.

 

http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/919thi/

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

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@Revkev. I'm not seeing it as a great plot either, but once the COR limit of .830 was reached as well as the 460cc head size there was nothing left for OEM'S to do but start moving the weight around with adjustable sliders. They needed some sort of new feature for their latest release.

 

 

As for cost, I'm not quite sure how an OEM producing 2 driver heads instead of 4-5 per model has the potential to significantly raise the prices of drivers, but prices have risen significantly in the past 15 years regardless.

 

I remember around 2000 or so my buddy buying a brand new Taylor Made 300 driver for $300. That was top of the line at the time. We are now looking at the M1 at $500, sometimes much more depending on shaft. So prices have gone up greatly in the past 15 years.

 

I'm not sure what percentage of golfers are fit for their clubs, but I'm sure it is quite low. It seems that if you were to pay for a custom fitting and take the fitters advice, once you have the finished club in your hand you wouldn't need to be adjusting any sliders as the would undermine the fitting you just had.

 

On the other hand, if you aren't getting custom fit, perhaps adjustability of the driver is better, as the player can, through trail and error, get close to the performance of a custom fit club even when buying off the rack.

 

 

 

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WITB:

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Spalding Top-Flite E.V.A. Sand Club

Rife Legend Z Putter

 

 

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I do think movable weights is a way to optimize performance, and no, COR and head size arent the end all of club performance, I'd actually put the head behind the shaft in a clubs performance.

 

This has been a great discussion, but I think we have gotten off track of the OP's original post where he said

 

"It seems to me that in order to make this driver perform at its peak, it is imperative that a player go through a very advanced fitting at an exclusive fitting center. And even then, the gains to be had over the previous version are marginal at best…

 

Doesn't this speak to the quality of fitting vs the quality of new drivers?"

 

So is adjustability of the club or the fitting by a professional more important to increased performance?

 

 

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WITB:

Stan Thompson “Reactionizer” persimmon woods 1-4

Spalding Tour Edition 3-PW

Spalding Top-Flite E.V.A. Sand Club

Rife Legend Z Putter

 

 

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