HELP - my hips are out of control

[JBones]

For some reason, I've started getting a lot of hip turn in my swing. The weird part is that it is only with my woods (which leads me to believe its a mental thing). I have been sticking my irons, but if I hit a wood, it is a weak flare right. Does anyone know any drills to help with this? I've been told it's as simple as taking a wider stance, but I don't have a wide stance with my wedges and I don't do this. I need to fix this soon, as I have qualifying for the city tournament next weekend. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Phana24JG]

For some reason, I've started getting a lot of hip turn in my swing. The weird part is that it is only with my woods (which leads me to believe its a mental thing). I have been sticking my irons, but if I hit a wood, it is a weak flare right. Does anyone know any drills to help with this? I've been told it's as simple as taking a wider stance, but I don't have a wide stance with my wedges and I don't do this. I need to fix this soon, as I have qualifying for the city tournament next weekend. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

My first suggestion is to get a Casio EX series camera that takes 210-1000fps slo-mo videos. Diagnosing a swing problem from verbal descriptions is a crap shoot on your best day. A full hip turn is not necessarily a bad thing. It is entirely possible you are either not pivoting very much (or reverse pivoting) with your swing. Since the irons are more forgiving and most decent golfers can control an iron face easier than a wood, you can often hit the irons acceptably.

 

However, you are looking for a short-term fix. Try these ideas on for size. First, since the woods are longer, you generally stand further away from the ball, which encourages more turn. Check your posture, and make sure your hands are under your shoulders and no more than 1 to 1 1/2 fist widths away from your body. Another possibility is that you are blocking out your release. This can be caused by getting your upper body "ahead" of the ball on the downswing. Make sure to keep your tailbone ahead of the neckbone.

 

Good luck!!

[JBones]

I have recorded both swinging a wood and an iron. On the woods, I'm starting my swing with a hip turn, then firing my hips to start the downswing and basically the club is in a "stuck" position. I'm going to work on the mental part of it first, then go from there. I'm going to see my swing coach on Thursday, so maybe he can get me straightened out.

[Manavs]

My first suggestion is to get a Casio EX series camera that takes 210-1000fps slo-mo videos.

 

 

did you just suggest someone drop $$$ to by a camera as your initial advice? Phana are you making commissions on that or just out of your mind? lol

 

 

A drill id suggest, coil your hips like you are doing in your backswing, from there keep your body turned back and slowly move your hands, arms and club towards the ball without turning your hips or shoulders through, and stop at the bottom - this is one. with your hips still in their initial coil, lift the club back to the top your swing and repeat - two. now on the third time bring the club back (hips still coiled), fire the club down at full speed leading with your hands, arms and club, with no attempt to keep back OR lead with your hip turn. let them just respond to your hands and arms.

 

does this make sense or do you need me to make a video? lemme know

[JBones]

A drill id suggest, coil your hips like you are doing in your backswing, from there keep your body turned back and slowly move your hands, arms and club towards the ball without turning your hips or shoulders through, and stop at the bottom - this is one. with your hips still in their initial coil, lift the club back to the top your swing and repeat - two. now on the third time bring the club back (hips still coiled), fire the club down at full speed leading with your hands, arms and club, with no attempt to keep back OR lead with your hip turn. let them just respond to your hands and arms.

 

does this make sense or do you need me to make a video? lemme know

GREAT. It took only once to figure out the problem. On my first attempt I could feel that my downswing wanted to start by my hips rotating, which was what was causing the club to get in a "stuck" position. After doing this drill a few times, I got right back in sync. Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I was looking for.

 

I still think it was weird that I was only doing this with my woods.

[JBones]

I just got back from the range and I'm feeling really good about my chances of qualifying for the city tournament this weekend. I used this drill for the first 10 balls I hit and it got me into a great rhythm. I was hitting the ball today better than I have in the last 10 years. I got my 10yd draw back and I was knocking down the flags, I even hit the 215yd sign 8 out of 10 balls with my 5 iron.

 

Manavs, thank you, thank you, thank you; that drill is awesome. I highly recommend this drill to anyone who feels like they are a little "out of sync".

[Manavs]

glad you found it helpful. lemme know how it goes, and btw....

 

 

 

 

my fee is a standard 8% of your earnings plus 10% on a win this weekend; visa and mastercard are both welcomed

[JBones]

my fee is a standard 8% of your earnings plus 10% on a win this weekend; visa and mastercard are both welcomed

LOL, too bad I can only win a trophy; I guess I could cut the golfer off and mail it to you. There are 258 people qualifying for 50 spots. It usually takes a 73-74 to qualify, so I'm liking my chances now that I'm swinging right again.

[jamo]

LOL, too bad I can only win a trophy; I guess I could cut the golfer off and mail it to you.

 

If the little golfer is holding a club it will inevitably fall off anyway.

[JBones]

If the little golfer is holding a club it will inevitably fall off anyway.

I could only hope to experience this; I don't really stand a chance of winning. My little 16yr old cousin (who will be on tour one of these days) shot 67-73-72-69 last year and didn't even crack the top 10. The guy that wins every year shot 62-65-73-68 last year. They play two different city courses (easy courses) on the first weekend, then the top 40 move on to the second weekend at the two toughest country clubs in the area.

 

I will be 1 of 258 golfers playing for 53 spots this weekend.

[Phana24JG]

did you just suggest someone drop $$$ to by a camera as your initial advice? Phana are you making commissions on that or just out of your mind? lol

 

 

A drill id suggest, coil your hips like you are doing in your backswing, from there keep your body turned back and slowly move your hands, arms and club towards the ball without turning your hips or shoulders through, and stop at the bottom - this is one. with your hips still in their initial coil, lift the club back to the top your swing and repeat - two. now on the third time bring the club back (hips still coiled), fire the club down at full speed leading with your hands, arms and club, with no attempt to keep back OR lead with your hip turn. let them just respond to your hands and arms.

 

does this make sense or do you need me to make a video? lemme know

 

Mike, your posts raises a couple of questions. First, do you find quality video to be of value for your students? I have found it invaluable, particularly comparing my current swing to when I was mashing the ball. The other question is about the transition. You are apparently what the TGM guys call a believer in the hands driven pivot. What do you think the advantages of this approach are versus what I see as the preferred method of many good instructors which is considered pivot driven hands?

[Manavs]

Mike, your posts raises a couple of questions. First, do you find quality video to be of value for your students?

 

yes without question no doubt. technically speaking any camera with a min 100fps - preferably 500fps or more - is more than adequate.

 

but video for the sake of video is useless. its what you as an instructor do with the video and how you present it. when fixing a golf swing one is either working towards or away from something. all the video is a tool for the student to gain understanding on how to do it. (i already know how to do this stuff lol) its the student's understanding because unless he or she understand what they have to do to make it look like you want it to look is what matters.

 

you dont play golf (or at least good golf) with a camera. the scorecard could care less if its a $300 walmart camera or $10,000 3chip camera. the bottom line is did the student get better because he understood what the teacher was attempting to convey. and in this situation ,specific to him, where there is no camera available, i felt i needed to provide an answer. and apparently from his feedback it improved this aspect of his game.

 

i guess what im trying to say is that i use the camera as a tool. the camera doesnt use me, or make me a better instructor because i have or dont have one available. jack grout did ok with some fat kid from columbus and i think they only had black and white or 8mm lol j/k

I have found it invaluable, particularly comparing my current swing to when I was mashing the ball. The other question is about the transition. You are apparently what the TGM guys call a believer in the hands driven pivot. What do you think the advantages of this approach are versus what I see as the preferred method of many good instructors which is considered pivot driven hands?

 

your apparently boxing me into a mold because i suggested a solution for jbones.

 

i dont know what the TGM guys call me, and quite frankly i could care less. the few current tgm guys i;ve met - (namely the peon from long island that runs it is a complete idiot) did not impress me when i spoke with him at the pga show. the tgm booth was directly across from our ALR Golf booth. they have so much false information on their new materials regarding the body that i called them out on it and they about lost it. it was great.

 

before i get back on point - i've met and was fortunate enough to spend some time with tom tomasello, a few choice encounters with ben doyle at a few pga shows. now these guys impressed me, as did chuck wike and ted frick his fellow instructor at the deertrack myrtle beach golf school. its just a handful of the new guys that are ruining a good thing homer started.

 

back on point now - hands driven pivot (HDP) versus pivot driven hands (PDH). the question of what are the advantages of one over the other lies in what is required by the student. both are capable of producing a ball flight one can play with, it all depends how your using the action, again, as a tool to fix the client. listen i could care less if the guy attached a club to his mouth and swung at it with his neck, if it hit it straight up and forward consistently, who cares?

 

there is an issue of timing to consider - PDH requires more timing and you can optimally go at it at one speed. HDP you can change speeds thus providing more ball flight options.

 

there are a ton of analogies i can use to describe the two ways and then make an argument for either but again its what are you looking for. you made the statement "I see as the preferred method of many good instructors" ... THAT gives it less credibility to me knowing that hands moving the hops is a better way for most golfers as the information many "good instructors" have give isnt worth the toilet paper its written on.

 

HDP or PDH

 

if you were going to have dental surgery performed on you with a drill, would you want the dentist's hand to control his hips or his hips controlling his hands?

 

a batter connecting to a fastball, fires the bat using his hands at the ball, in turn, his hips respond to the action. on a curveball that he get "ahead of" his hips have turned first, and his hands have responded later - either he makes weak contact to the opposite field or .... its followed by a walk to the dugout.

 

not saying you have to do one or the other, but there is an advantage to making your hands, move your arms, which moves the heavy shaft in transition, which applies a force greater than the hips can suppress, so the hips rotate out - as you see on camera - giving you the late hit. but it was the hands, applying pressure against the shaft first that caused the greatest hip turn.

 

hip turn does not guarantee proper hand action, proper hand action does allow for proper hip turn to take place.

 

plus never mind the stress put on the body/lower back when the hips control the pivot. aye yaye yaye! that hurst bro!

 

take a blank shaft and swing it from the top of the backswing as slow or as fast as youd like and let the body follow. plenty of power under control? is it easy to change speeds?

 

then do the opposite - fire the hips first and have the hands follow. is the whoosh louder? is it softer? can you change speeds with it?

 

whatever your answers are ... they are.... but i;ll bet you there is a better way for you on one side of the equation than the other. and whatever that is for you it is for you - again i dont care. you make the decision its your swing. if i dont empower you as a client then your in a bad situation need me to always be there for you. i dont wanna do that. i just want to help you so YOU can do it and be off playing great rounds, texting me the low # you shot. that to me is the goal. i could care less on the how.

 

for jbones specifically i knew, through experience, one of these solutions would work better for him than the other, and the empirical data cannot be discounted. it worked for him. if i gave him the opposite answer, yes theres always the opposite, would he be as excited? or cursing me out? i think the latter.

 

i dunno, i just know how to get people better, and ask the right questions to figure out what is their trouble spot. i never evaluate and say YOU MUST DO THIS, rather my lessons go a lil something like this -

 

me - so what would you like to achieve with todays session?

client - i want to be able to do .....fill in the blank......!

me - so what are you doing to create 'blank'

client - im doing "this"

me - so doing "this" working as you want to?

answers 1 - client - Yes -

me - great congratulations we're done here

answer 2 - client, no not really -

me - so then if "this" is supposed to create ..."blank"... and its not - why are you doing "this"

client - teacher, friend, priest, rabbi, golf magazine, the golf channel, cart room boy, etc told me to do it and they spun a 2 iron off a green once

me - so lets look at your swing and see what "this" is doing to your swing.

client - oh - its not supposed to do "that"

me - ahhhh but "this" is creating "that"

client - WOW - im a dumbass

me - no its ok, your just doing "this" because you thought "this" would create "blank" when obviously it creates "that"

client - i get it, so how do we fix "that"?

me - first stop doing "this", then lets see what doing a little bit of "this here" does.

client - oooooooh i was told never to do "this here"

me - why not?

client - because my teacher, friend, priest, rabbi, golf magazine, the golf channel, cart room boy, etc told me not to and they spun a 2 iron off a green once.

me - well since they're not here right now, i wont tell them that you tried "this here" and for sh!ts and giggles lets just see what it does.

client - well i know its not going to work.

me - then you know what, i guess the lesson will be done right after that, so give it a go so i can move on to my next client, cause obviously i suck as an instructor for you and wont be able to help you, so lets move along quickly so i dont want to waste any more of your or my time.

client - well ok sounds good..... here we go....

[thwack - ball flies up straight and forward]

me - so how did that fly?

client - good, it did "blank".... heeeeyyyyyyy how did that happen?

me - oh didnt you know i perform magical golf instructor jedi mind tricks that move the ball for you? we learned it back at golf instructor college.

client - seriously how did "blank" happen?

me - well did you do "this here" instead of "this"

client - yeah

me - your sure?

client - yes absolutely sure

me - ok, then lets take a look at the video

client - wait a second, "this here" got rid of "that" and created "blank"

me - is that good?

client - well yeah

me - ok, im just checking. so we achieved "blank" as you requested at the beginning of the session?

client - yes

me - and you understand how to do "this here" to create "blank"?

client - yes

me - and you understand that any of "this" will creates "that" - not "blank"

client - yeah wow i wouldve never thought of that.

me - well you didnt, thats why your on my lesson tee, instead of playing golf with "this here" shooting "those" scores and winning all of "they;re" money.

 

now as teddy kgb said -

 

"pay det man hiz monee"

 

and go find fish to play

 

now whose on first? lol

[pughdog]

Wow. Good comeback

[Phana24JG]

yes without question no doubt. technically speaking any camera with a min 100fps - preferably 500fps or more - is more than adequate.

 

but video for the sake of video is useless. its what you as an instructor do with the video and how you present it. when fixing a golf swing one is either working towards or away from something. all the video is a tool for the student to gain understanding on how to do it. (i already know how to do this stuff lol) its the student's understanding because unless he or she understand what they have to do to make it look like you want it to look is what matters.

 

 

You are point on with your analysis of using a cam during a lesson. However, my main point was the value of a student using the cam either on a forum like this to give additional input into a problem, or as a tool to diagnose problems that arise after a lesson. Granted, we do not have your (good instructor) perspective analyzing our own swings, but having a good lesson swing on file for comparison has saved me a lot of time on the range. I think a good cam (and smart videography of the lesson) is the next best investment to the lessons themselves.

 

 

 

 

your apparently boxing me into a mold because i suggested a solution for jbones.

i dont know what the TGM guys call me, and quite frankly i could care less. the few current tgm guys i;ve met - (namely the peon from long island that runs it is a complete idiot) did not impress me when i spoke with him at the pga show. the tgm booth was directly across from our ALR Golf booth. they have so much false information on their new materials regarding the body that i called them out on it and they about lost it. it was great.

 

before i get back on point - i've met and was fortunate enough to spend some time with tom tomasello, a few choice encounters with ben doyle at a few pga shows. now these guys impressed me, as did chuck wike and ted frick his fellow instructor at the deertrack myrtle beach golf school. its just a handful of the new guys that are ruining a good thing homer started.

 

back on point now - hands driven pivot (HDP) versus pivot driven hands (PDH). the question of what are the advantages of one over the other lies in what is required by the student. both are capable of producing a ball flight one can play with, it all depends how your using the action, again, as a tool to fix the client. listen i could care less if the guy attached a club to his mouth and swung at it with his neck, if it hit it straight up and forward consistently, who cares?

 

there is an issue of timing to consider - PDH requires more timing and you can optimally go at it at one speed. HDP you can change speeds thus providing more ball flight options.

 

there are a ton of analogies i can use to describe the two ways and then make an argument for either but again its what are you looking for. you made the statement "I see as the preferred method of many good instructors" ... THAT gives it less credibility to me knowing that hands moving the hops is a better way for most golfers as the information many "good instructors" have give isnt worth the toilet paper its written on.

 

HDP or PDH

 

if you were going to have dental surgery performed on you with a drill, would you want the dentist's hand to control his hips or his hips controlling his hands?

 

a batter connecting to a fastball, fires the bat using his hands at the ball, in turn, his hips respond to the action. on a curveball that he get "ahead of" his hips have turned first, and his hands have responded later - either he makes weak contact to the opposite field or .... its followed by a walk to the dugout.

 

not saying you have to do one or the other, but there is an advantage to making your hands, move your arms, which moves the heavy shaft in transition, which applies a force greater than the hips can suppress, so the hips rotate out - as you see on camera - giving you the late hit. but it was the hands, applying pressure against the shaft first that caused the greatest hip turn.

 

hip turn does not guarantee proper hand action, proper hand action does allow for proper hip turn to take place.

 

plus never mind the stress put on the body/lower back when the hips control the pivot. aye yaye yaye! that hurst bro!

 

take a blank shaft and swing it from the top of the backswing as slow or as fast as youd like and let the body follow. plenty of power under control? is it easy to change speeds?

 

then do the opposite - fire the hips first and have the hands follow. is the whoosh louder? is it softer? can you change speeds with it?

 

whatever your answers are ... they are.... but i;ll bet you there is a better way for you on one side of the equation than the other. and whatever that is for you it is for you - again i dont care. you make the decision its your swing. if i dont empower you as a client then your in a bad situation need me to always be there for you. i dont wanna do that. i just want to help you so YOU can do it and be off playing great rounds, texting me the low # you shot. that to me is the goal. i could care less on the how.

 

for jbones specifically i knew, through experience, one of these solutions would work better for him than the other, and the empirical data cannot be discounted. it worked for him. if i gave him the opposite answer, yes theres always the opposite, would he be as excited? or cursing me out? i think the latter.

 

i dunno, i just know how to get people better, and ask the right questions to figure out what is their trouble spot. i never evaluate and say YOU MUST DO THIS, rather my lessons go a lil something like this -

 

 

 

Actually, I was basing my assumption on a lot of advice I have seen from you, both here and at other forums. I do not have any agenda. I am simply curious why instructors have their individual preferences, and what info I can obtain for free..lol. The TGM guys I refer to were both students of Ben Doyle, but are not the book literalists you refer to. The "magic words" I saw in your answer were "there is a better way for you on one side of the equation than the other. and whatever that is for you it is for you." We can agree we hate method teachers, and the key is to get the guy on the lesson tee hitting the ball better immediately. My last lesson actually focused on getting the hands involved sooner in the downswing than usual. I was a flipper and using the pivot driven transition went a long way toward solving the problem. I had an instructor try and resolve the flip with "dropping the hands" prior to the turn, but all that accomplished was digging up planet Earth before the ball.

 

The baseball analogy is open to dispute. Many hitting coaches focus on the lower body both for the backswing(trigger) and the release. Popular keys to begin the release are opening the hips, turning the back foot, and turning the rear knee. Joe Mauer and Manny Ramirez both lead with the lower body and have deposited many curveballs where they do not get caught.

 

However, as we all know, the hands are the only contact we have with the club(or bat or hockey stick for that matter), and whatever it takes to get them in impact position as quickly as possible is the goal. I am intrigued with your argument that HBP is easier on the back since I have some problems there. The HDP is probably far better for distance control. This is a distinct weakness in my game (although improving), but I also find the PDH beneficial for ball contact, as I love to flip wedges.

[pughdog]

and the key is to get the guy on the lesson tee hitting the ball better immediately.

 

If only that was possible!

 

Instant cures rarely happen I'm afraid (unless the fault is glaringly simple to fix.) Obviously it depends on the individual and the faults etc but the old adage of 'it has to get worse before it gets better' can often be the case. I'm yet to meet a golfer that has only one fault that can be immediately fixed.

 

More often, a golfer has a 'basic' fault at address or early on in the swing, that is compensated for by another fault and so on, the juggling continues. Fixing the cause of the problem usually then reveals the effect/s.

 

I believe it was Tommy Armour III that said "In a golf swing there are few causes and many effects. Make sure you distinguish between them" I can't remember if I've got the end of that quote right. My old boss / coach used to have it up on the wall in his coaching studio.

 

I would argue (and I think Manavs was getting at this too?) that the golfer leaving with a knowledge of what was causing the problem in the first place and how to put it right is way more important than simply hitting the ball better.

 

I suppose it depends on whether you want a long term solution or a quick 'band-aid' fix.

[cheymike]

I'll take the band-aid first, then work on the long term fix while its healing.

[Phana24JG]

If only that was possible!

 

Instant cures rarely happen I'm afraid (unless the fault is glaringly simple to fix.) Obviously it depends on the individual and the faults etc but the old adage of 'it has to get worse before it gets better' can often be the case. I'm yet to meet a golfer that has only one fault that can be immediately fixed.

 

More often, a golfer has a 'basic' fault at address or early on in the swing, that is compensated for by another fault and so on, the juggling continues. Fixing the cause of the problem usually then reveals the effect/s.

 

I believe it was Tommy Armour III that said "In a golf swing there are few causes and many effects. Make sure you distinguish between them" I can't remember if I've got the end of that quote right. My old boss / coach used to have it up on the wall in his coaching studio.

 

I would argue (and I think Manavs was getting at this too?) that the golfer leaving with a knowledge of what was causing the problem in the first place and how to put it right is way more important than simply hitting the ball better.

 

I suppose it depends on whether you want a long term solution or a quick 'band-aid' fix.

 

 

Well, I guess this depends upon how you define a lesson. If you are referring to a half-hour with a guy/gal who has no idea what they are doing, or have determined that an experienced golfer needs a complete retool, I will agree with you. However, if a reasonably proficient golfer who is a good student (is willing and able to do what is asked) books an hour or more with an instructor, I submit he should be able to see some noticeable improvement during that hour. I am not saying a 5 handicapper walks away a 3, but there should be demonstrable progress. I personally do not expect to see any real improvement for at least three practice sessions and several drill sessions (if appropriate) in the yard. However, if I do not stripe a few drives, nail a few short irons or sink a few putts depending on what we are working on, it will be hard for me to believe that we are going to achieve what we set out to do.

 

I agree that communicating the underlying faults is the essential part of the lesson, and this ability to do so separates the good instructors from the vast majority of the mediocre instructors. I understand that most pros are somewhat frustrated with students in general because they either have predetermined what they need to do and want an eye to help them (e.g. Manavs example) or they are unwilling to practice and think they should be able to take a lesson on Friday and play Sunday with their slice magically vanished.

 

Furthermore, as Cheymike alluded to, there is often a benefit to a band-aid. I took my first lesson from a top-flight instructor last August, right in the height of my tournament schedule. He basically gave me a band-aid for the time being, but showed me what the real problem was and some drills to address the corrections that would be needed.

 

Finally, considering how I played last weekend and in Monday's league, I should really STFU on any topic related to golf instruction.

[pughdog]

Finally, considering how I played last weekend and in Monday's league, I should really STFU on any topic related to golf instruction.

 

 

In my opinion, Pros that get frustrated with students are not doing their job correctly. I completely agree that the type of student, their awareness of their own golf swing and swing mechanics in general, practice ethic and expectancy level can play a huge part in the success of the coaching relationship.

 

I have been on both ends of the deal. As a snotty nosed teenager playing off a low handicap I strolled into my first golf lesson thinking I knew it all. I was under the impression that what I did was pretty damn good and had no interest at all in changing too much. I then began an 11 year long working relationship with my coach who only a couple of months later became my employer for the same time period. At first, his skill was to be able to manipulate my swing with very simple straight forward suggestions. Very little was discussed as far as 'why' and 'what for'. However, over time, as my knowledge of the golf swing increased along with my confidence to question what I was being told, the intricate reasoning behind the changes being made became clearer.

 

The skill of a great coach is to be able to communicate at the correct level. I really don't mean that to sound patronising but often, explaining the fault and correction in minute detail to a less knowledgable golfer can only serve to confuse said golfer and send them away more tangled up than when they arrived! We've all heard the tale of the golfer that went for a lesson and came away much worse. "That Pro ruined my swing!" etc etc. I don't think any Pro in the world aims to 'ruin a swing'. A breakdown in communication or poorly explained theory however can have that exact unwanted effect on the golfer.

 

Having been taught for years I have definately finished more than the occasional session on the receiving end of information that hasn't improved my ball striking or control at all straight away. Often, as Phana24JG mentioned, it has taken a number of practice sessions to see any 'results'. I always left an exchange like that completely confident that the changes being made were neccessary and that the end product would be worth the inconvenience. That was 100% down to the skill of the coach at being able to put my mind at rest and the explanation of the alteration. I dare say his reputation and previous track record played a part in my 'faith' too.

 

The relationship between coach and pupil is a tricky one. If the pupil has little faith in the coach, at the first sign of something feeling 'strange' or not 'working' they often run a mile. I used to coach alongside a guy who had an alarming number of one off golf lessons. Folk would come along for one lesson then never return. Occasionally they would switch onto me and have a session. Usually it would involve phrases like "oh, X didn't explain it like that" or "Y didn't tell me why we were doing this" or "Z made it sound way more complicated than you just did". I used to get frustrated that golfers were receiving poor information but at the same time happy to be able to help restore some faith in the coaching relationship.

 

I guess what I'm rambling on about here is trust. The number one primary goal of a coach is to gain the pupils trust. Sometimes it can be by making the pupil feel more comfortable in their surroundings, taking a golf lesson is a big step for a lot of folk. Other times it can be to reassure the pupil that the coach 'knows his onions'. I would love when a guy would walk through the door apparently knowing everything there is to know about the golf swing only to be completely enlightened by what's actually happening during their own swing during the session.

 

I used video analysis. I see it as a very important tool (as mentioned earlier) but on the same note, a well positioned obstacle or swing thought / feeling can be just as important. It's 'how' the information displayed on the video footage is relayed to the pupil that is more important than the quality of the camera or how many camera angles there are.

 

On a last note, just like in life, different folk get on with different coaches. The important factor here is to find a coach that you 'click' with. That gets where you're coming from, what your level of understanding is and where you want to take your game. Don't be afraid or put off if you have to shop around a bit until you find a coach that you feel comfortable with.

[Manavs]

Firstly i just spent an hour typing a response and lost it somehow arrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

Wow. Good comeback

 

 

dont you be starting trouble Pughdog lol - I like Phana and have had no problems with him. i've always found his commentary insightful and well worded as a valuable contributor on the board. looking back at my original post, i can see how my humor/sarcasm may not have come straight out - so before anyone starts any things that may be construed - i try to throw a little fun into my responses for maximum dramatic effect.

 

 

You are point on with your analysis of using a cam during a lesson. However, my main point was the value of a student using the cam either on a forum like this to give additional input into a problem, or as a tool to diagnose problems that arise after a lesson. Granted, we do not have your (good instructor) perspective analyzing our own swings, but having a good lesson swing on file for comparison has saved me a lot of time on the range. I think a good cam (and smart videography of the lesson) is the next best investment to the lessons themselves.

your absolutely right. having a camera on hand for this thread would have provided additional information that we could have used. but i kinda just played the ball as it lies on that one and went with what i had to work with. and looking back at it, did my advice do more good than harm and by what extent. call it the therapeutic index for golf. the good was good and there were no bad side effects. so given the data i think we done good.

 

 

 

Actually, I was basing my assumption on a lot of advice I have seen from you, both here and at other forums. I do not have any agenda. I am simply curious why instructors have their individual preferences, and what info I can obtain for free..lol. The TGM guys I refer to were both students of Ben Doyle, but are not the book literalists you refer to. The "magic words" I saw in your answer were "there is a better way for you on one side of the equation than the other. and whatever that is for you it is for you." We can agree we hate method teachers, and the key is to get the guy on the lesson tee hitting the ball better immediately. My last lesson actually focused on getting the hands involved sooner in the downswing than usual. I was a flipper and using the pivot driven transition went a long way toward solving the problem. I had an instructor try and resolve the flip with "dropping the hands" prior to the turn, but all that accomplished was digging up planet Earth before the ball.

 

The baseball analogy is open to dispute. Many hitting coaches focus on the lower body both for the backswing(trigger) and the release. Popular keys to begin the release are opening the hips, turning the back foot, and turning the rear knee. Joe Mauer and Manny Ramirez both lead with the lower body and have deposited many curveballs where they do not get caught.

 

However, as we all know, the hands are the only contact we have with the club(or bat or hockey stick for that matter), and whatever it takes to get them in impact position as quickly as possible is the goal. I am intrigued with your argument that HBP is easier on the back since I have some problems there. The HDP is probably far better for distance control. This is a distinct weakness in my game (although improving), but I also find the PDH beneficial for ball contact, as I love to flip wedges.

 

now i do hate many a golf instructor - based solely on the damage they've created and/or the amount i've had to clean up because of their callous actions. but to say i hate method teachers is not true. i can use a method i see important or workable for a certain person, but that doesnt make me a method teacher. for example you can take alot out of furyks swing, but i wont give mark mccumber the same advice, because the two actions have completely separate data pools if you will. loopy over under swing wouldnt do well with a block promoting hang on grip ala mccumber. but i wouldnt tell mccumber to try to turn it over either. so by knowing which components work for pool A - which work for pool B, and which dont work A or B but only work for C and have cross over abilities for D, E, and F. (hope that makes sense)

 

as an instructor i need to know how one action creates a reaction somewhere else in the swing. so when i make a suggestion here, i got to look down the cascading chain of events to what the hell is that going to do over there.

 

was i always like this? hell no, but this is what i have grown to appreciate as i became a better instructor over the years. in my early years i'd say do this move, and see a funny shot and say - uhhh ok don't do that again. now i know better, and can predict better so i dont have those uh oh moments.

 

with that said, getting back to HDP / PDH, this would not be my entrance point with you Phana. its too far down the line of things that are not as important to your immediate improvement. there are more and less important pieces of data in the swing. far to often the less important ones are what golfers hang on to when they arent doing the basics well - (my basics start and end with impact).

 

there has only one other person i've "wanted" to give a golf lesson to, and thats charles barkley, only because i know i can help him immediately. in fact one of my clients was sharing a 6 pack of brewskis on the patio at lake tahoe last week, and well who knows whats going to come of it.

 

not that i'm comparing Phana to sir charles - but if we can organize it i think it would make for great content for the site. i'd give you a lesson and we'd post it up on you tube and each of us would review the lesson in an article.

 

might be onto something here.

 

Michael

[Manavs]

If only that was possible!

 

Instant cures rarely happen I'm afraid (unless the fault is glaringly simple to fix.) Obviously it depends on the individual and the faults etc but the old adage of 'it has to get worse before it gets better' can often be the case. I'm yet to meet a golfer that has only one fault that can be immediately fixed.

 

More often, a golfer has a 'basic' fault at address or early on in the swing, that is compensated for by another fault and so on, the juggling continues. Fixing the cause of the problem usually then reveals the effect/s.

 

I believe it was Tommy Armour III that said "In a golf swing there are few causes and many effects. Make sure you distinguish between them" I can't remember if I've got the end of that quote right. My old boss / coach used to have it up on the wall in his coaching studio.

 

I would argue (and I think Manavs was getting at this too?) that the golfer leaving with a knowledge of what was causing the problem in the first place and how to put it right is way more important than simply hitting the ball better.

 

I suppose it depends on whether you want a long term solution or a quick 'band-aid' fix.

 

that is one of my most hated excuses i've heard golf instructors say. better does not make worse. worse makes worse. better is better. more is not better, rather BETTER IS BETTER. and better if its truly better, sticks and hangs around a while.

 

whether its a long term or band aid fix, if i can't make you quantifyably better i dont deserve to get paid. my clients dont sign up with me to get worse, they come to me for a product.

 

i'm very passionate about this in reality not just in theory. if i can't help you i refuse your money. i think golf pros as a whole have sat on their laurals

as players or opinion leaders with very little knowledge on how to quantifiably improve people . now this is where a camera comes in for before and after pictures. as well as very good questioning at the beginning of the lesson ie find out specific goals for the session from the client. then deliver those. if you cant do that your in the wrong business.

[Manavs]

Finally, considering how I played last weekend and in Monday's league, I should really STFU on any topic related to golf instruction.

 

no way are you getting off that easily lol

 

 

 

In my opinion, Pros that get frustrated with students are not doing their job correctly. I completely agree that the type of student, their awareness of their own golf swing and swing mechanics in general, practice ethic and expectancy level can play a huge part in the success of the coaching relationship.

 

I have been on both ends of the deal. As a snotty nosed teenager playing off a low handicap I strolled into my first golf lesson thinking I knew it all. I was under the impression that what I did was pretty damn good and had no interest at all in changing too much. I then began an 11 year long working relationship with my coach who only a couple of months later became my employer for the same time period. At first, his skill was to be able to manipulate my swing with very simple straight forward suggestions. Very little was discussed as far as 'why' and 'what for'. However, over time, as my knowledge of the golf swing increased along with my confidence to question what I was being told, the intricate reasoning behind the changes being made became clearer.

 

The skill of a great coach is to be able to communicate at the correct level. I really don't mean that to sound patronising but often, explaining the fault and correction in minute detail to a less knowledgable golfer can only serve to confuse said golfer and send them away more tangled up than when they arrived! We've all heard the tale of the golfer that went for a lesson and came away much worse. "That Pro ruined my swing!" etc etc. I don't think any Pro in the world aims to 'ruin a swing'. A breakdown in communication or poorly explained theory however can have that exact unwanted effect on the golfer.

 

Having been taught for years I have definately finished more than the occasional session on the receiving end of information that hasn't improved my ball striking or control at all straight away. Often, as Phana24JG mentioned, it has taken a number of practice sessions to see any 'results'. I always left an exchange like that completely confident that the changes being made were neccessary and that the end product would be worth the inconvenience. That was 100% down to the skill of the coach at being able to put my mind at rest and the explanation of the alteration. I dare say his reputation and previous track record played a part in my 'faith' too.

 

The relationship between coach and pupil is a tricky one. If the pupil has little faith in the coach, at the first sign of something feeling 'strange' or not 'working' they often run a mile. I used to coach alongside a guy who had an alarming number of one off golf lessons. Folk would come along for one lesson then never return. Occasionally they would switch onto me and have a session. Usually it would involve phrases like "oh, X didn't explain it like that" or "Y didn't tell me why we were doing this" or "Z made it sound way more complicated than you just did". I used to get frustrated that golfers were receiving poor information but at the same time happy to be able to help restore some faith in the coaching relationship.

 

I guess what I'm rambling on about here is trust. The number one primary goal of a coach is to gain the pupils trust. Sometimes it can be by making the pupil feel more comfortable in their surroundings, taking a golf lesson is a big step for a lot of folk. Other times it can be to reassure the pupil that the coach 'knows his onions'. I would love when a guy would walk through the door apparently knowing everything there is to know about the golf swing only to be completely enlightened by what's actually happening during their own swing during the session.

 

I used video analysis. I see it as a very important tool (as mentioned earlier) but on the same note, a well positioned obstacle or swing thought / feeling can be just as important. It's 'how' the information displayed on the video footage is relayed to the pupil that is more important than the quality of the camera or how many camera angles there are.

 

On a last note, just like in life, different folk get on with different coaches. The important factor here is to find a coach that you 'click' with. That gets where you're coming from, what your level of understanding is and where you want to take your game. Don't be afraid or put off if you have to shop around a bit until you find a coach that you feel comfortable with.

 

excellent post - if i can add to it, i'd just say that a student has to know how to be a student ie willing to learn and an instructor has to know how to instruct. pretty basic right? lol

[pughdog]

that is one of my most hated excuses i've heard golf instructors say. better does not make worse. worse makes worse. better is better. more is not better, rather BETTER IS BETTER. and better if its truly better, sticks and hangs around a while.

 

whether its a long term or band aid fix, if i can't make you quantifyably better i dont deserve to get paid. my clients dont sign up with me to get worse, they come to me for a product.

 

i'm very passionate about this in reality not just in theory. if i can't help you i refuse your money. i think golf pros as a whole have sat on their laurals

as players or opinion leaders with very little knowledge on how to quantifiably improve people . now this is where a camera comes in for before and after pictures. as well as very good questioning at the beginning of the lesson ie find out specific goals for the session from the client. then deliver those. if you cant do that your in the wrong business.

 

Woah... let me clarify.

 

By 'getting worse before it gets better' I meant that the pupil may perceive it to be getting worse when the swing itself was actually improving. I always had before and after video evidence in cases like this to reassure the pupil that they were on the right track. You can't deny that sometimes a BETTER swing movement, due to the 'knock on effect' and it being so 'new' and 'strange feeling' can often have the negative result of producing what the pupil can perceive to be poor shots? Unless you've pre-warned them of course

 

I had a similar belief whilst I was coaching that I wouldn't take money unless earned. I got paid more times than not

 

I had a great exchange with a low handicapper once that went along the lines of...

 

Me - So, how's your game?

Mr. X - Awful. I had a lesson with and it's ruined me.

Me - Oh dear, maybe we should take a look at it?

Mr. X - No chance, all you Pros are the same, take my money and I never see any improvement.

Me - Well I'll tell you what, why don't we have a look at it, we can video it too so you can see if there are any improvements. If at the end of the lesson you don't think you've improved you don't have to pay.

Mr. X - What? You'll give me a free lesson if I'm not 100% happy?

Me - Yup.

 

45 minutes later and I not only had a new client on my books but he went on to recommend my services to every buddy who would listen.

 

I completely agree on the sitting on laurels point too.

[Phana24JG]

Firstly i just spent an hour typing a response and lost it somehow arrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

 

dont you be starting trouble Pughdog lol - I like Phana and have had no problems with him. i've always found his commentary insightful and well worded as a valuable contributor on the board. looking back at my original post, i can see how my humor/sarcasm may not have come straight out - so before anyone starts any things that may be construed - i try to throw a little fun into my responses for maximum dramatic effect.

 

 

 

your absolutely right. having a camera on hand for this thread would have provided additional information that we could have used. but i kinda just played the ball as it lies on that one and went with what i had to work with. and looking back at it, did my advice do more good than harm and by what extent. call it the therapeutic index for golf. the good was good and there were no bad side effects. so given the data i think we done good.

 

 

 

 

now i do hate many a golf instructor - based solely on the damage they've created and/or the amount i've had to clean up because of their callous actions. but to say i hate method teachers is not true. i can use a method i see important or workable for a certain person, but that doesnt make me a method teacher. for example you can take alot out of furyks swing, but i wont give mark mccumber the same advice, because the two actions have completely separate data pools if you will. loopy over under swing wouldnt do well with a block promoting hang on grip ala mccumber. but i wouldnt tell mccumber to try to turn it over either. so by knowing which components work for pool A - which work for pool B, and which dont work A or B but only work for C and have cross over abilities for D, E, and F. (hope that makes sense)

 

as an instructor i need to know how one action creates a reaction somewhere else in the swing. so when i make a suggestion here, i got to look down the cascading chain of events to what the hell is that going to do over there.

 

was i always like this? hell no, but this is what i have grown to appreciate as i became a better instructor over the years. in my early years i'd say do this move, and see a funny shot and say - uhhh ok don't do that again. now i know better, and can predict better so i dont have those uh oh moments.

 

with that said, getting back to HDP / PDH, this would not be my entrance point with you Phana. its too far down the line of things that are not as important to your immediate improvement. there are more and less important pieces of data in the swing. far to often the less important ones are what golfers hang on to when they arent doing the basics well - (my basics start and end with impact).

 

there has only one other person i've "wanted" to give a golf lesson to, and thats charles barkley, only because i know i can help him immediately. in fact one of my clients was sharing a 6 pack of brewskis on the patio at lake tahoe last week, and well who knows whats going to come of it.

 

not that i'm comparing Phana to sir charles - but if we can organize it i think it would make for great content for the site. i'd give you a lesson and we'd post it up on you tube and each of us would review the lesson in an article.

 

might be onto something here.

 

Michael

 

 

Mike, I find your desire to give a lesson to Barkley interesting. I know a couple, and have read about many pros who want a crack at Ray Romano, but very few want a piece of Barkley. Hell, with a Trackman and 1500fps video sitting right there, I bet I would have a decent chance of improving Romano more than Hank Heehaw, but Barkley is an whole different animal.

 

When I refer to a method teacher, I mean those guys who insist on jamming the latest fad down every student's throat. One of the ranges I frequent has one of these guys. Three years ago he was into the one plane/two plane gig and had 2-d photos with lines all over the place confusing just about every lesson I overheard. This year, he has everyone stacking and tilting, albeit with what appears to be some better results.

 

Frankly, Sir Charles and I might have had quite an interesting match this week. My driver has imploded and what I see on video ain't good. Three weeks ago I was scoring some of the best golf of my life, but I live and die by the driver. When the driver goes to hell, it tends to gradually take down the rest of my game (a mental issue). I am playing in a tournament this weekend with a 4.4 index and doubt I can break 80. The only bright spot is that I still have a large room attached to the house boarded up and tarped from a fallen tree that awaits a building permit. There is still plenty of sheetrock to absorb my frustrations.

 

If you are going to be in the Northeast let me know and I will try and accommodate your schedule.

[pughdog]

Phana24JG, good luck in the tournament this weekend. Lower expectations, a strong mental resolve and a hot short game could still see you card a good score

 

When I refer to a method teacher, I mean those guys who insist on jamming the latest fad down every student's throat. One of the ranges I frequent has one of these guys. Three years ago he was into the one plane/two plane gig and had 2-d photos with lines all over the place confusing just about every lesson I overheard. This year, he has everyone stacking and tilting, albeit with what appears to be some better results.

 

Method teaching is a strange one. I find it hard to believe that a "one swing fits all" approach can work. The pros that I have met over the years with 'trendy methods' usually don't have many ideas of their own or confidence in their abilities. Years of coaching gives the knowledge of what changes work for different types of golfers. A template that all golfers need to fit into just seems fundamentally wrong to me.

 

The golf industry as a whole loves trends though, be it stack and tilt, white putters or chipping with a hybrid. If a golfer wins on tour wearing his underpants on his head you can bet your bottom dollar golf magazines across the globe would run 'how tos' on how to apply said Y-fronts / jockeys and golfers across the land would try it out at the local range swearing they can feel the difference. Lets face it, we all want to get better, and if there's a 'method' to buy into that X, Y or Z just used to win on tour that doesn't involve too much practice most will give it a whirl.

 

Anyway, I've highjacked this thread long enough. The original post was about hips. There seems to be a non method based cure on the horizon in the form of Manavs so hopefully all will end well.

 

I was asked by a fellow Pro recently what method I teach, the one plane or the two plane. I replied "the one that improves the golfer infront of me"

[JBones]

Anyway, I've highjacked this thread long enough. The original post was about hips. There seems to be a non method based cure on the horizon in the form of Manavs so hopefully all will end well.

It's all good. The drill Manavs provided enabled me to determine that I was starting my downswing with a hip rotation, causing the club to get "stuck" and my finish was well left of my target. So you're all welcome to continue on with the discussion, it doesn't bother me.

[Phana24JG]

Phana24JG, good luck in the tournament this weekend. Lower expectations, a strong mental resolve and a hot short game could still see you card a good score ..........

 

 

Anyway, I've highjacked this thread long enough. The original post was about hips. There seems to be a non method based cure on the horizon in the form of Manavs so hopefully all will end well.

 

I was asked by a fellow Pro recently what method I teach, the one plane or the two plane. I replied "the one that improves the golfer infront of me"

 

Thanks for the encouraging words, but I already have the wall selected and plenty of ice in the freezer for the knuckles afterward. I hate to play the one upsmanship game, but a couple of years ago I had one of these 15 handicappers who knows EVERYTHING about golf in a discussion. At one point in the discussion he asked the same question, but simply said one plane or two with no reference to the golf swing. I told him I didn't care as long as it was first class. Took him at least 15 secs to get it.

[pughdog]

[Manavs]

Woah... let me clarify.

 

By 'getting worse before it gets better' I meant that the pupil may perceive it to be getting worse when the swing itself was actually improving. I always had before and after video evidence in cases like this to reassure the pupil that they were on the right track. You can't deny that sometimes a BETTER swing movement, due to the 'knock on effect' and it being so 'new' and 'strange feeling' can often have the negative result of producing what the pupil can perceive to be poor shots? Unless you've pre-warned them of course

 

I had a similar belief whilst I was coaching that I wouldn't take money unless earned. I got paid more times than not

 

I had a great exchange with a low handicapper once that went along the lines of...

 

Me - So, how's your game?

Mr. X - Awful. I had a lesson with and it's ruined me.

Me - Oh dear, maybe we should take a look at it?

Mr. X - No chance, all you Pros are the same, take my money and I never see any improvement.

Me - Well I'll tell you what, why don't we have a look at it, we can video it too so you can see if there are any improvements. If at the end of the lesson you don't think you've improved you don't have to pay.

Mr. X - What? You'll give me a free lesson if I'm not 100% happy?

Me - Yup.

 

45 minutes later and I not only had a new client on my books but he went on to recommend my services to every buddy who would listen.

 

I completely agree on the sitting on laurels point too.

 

 

i follow you - good stufff bro

 

Mike, I find your desire to give a lesson to Barkley interesting. I know a couple, and have read about many pros who want a crack at Ray Romano, but very few want a piece of Barkley. Hell, with a Trackman and 1500fps video sitting right there, I bet I would have a decent chance of improving Romano more than Hank Heehaw, but Barkley is an whole different animal.

 

When I refer to a method teacher, I mean those guys who insist on jamming the latest fad down every student's throat. One of the ranges I frequent has one of these guys. Three years ago he was into the one plane/two plane gig and had 2-d photos with lines all over the place confusing just about every lesson I overheard. This year, he has everyone stacking and tilting, albeit with what appears to be some better results.

 

Frankly, Sir Charles and I might have had quite an interesting match this week. My driver has imploded and what I see on video ain't good. Three weeks ago I was scoring some of the best golf of my life, but I live and die by the driver. When the driver goes to hell, it tends to gradually take down the rest of my game (a mental issue). I am playing in a tournament this weekend with a 4.4 index and doubt I can break 80. The only bright spot is that I still have a large room attached to the house boarded up and tarped from a fallen tree that awaits a building permit. There is still plenty of sheetrock to absorb my frustrations.

 

If you are going to be in the Northeast let me know and I will try and accommodate your schedule.

 

just a suggestion, using your sand iron is much more effective at sheetrock than your fist - where in the northeast are you again?

Anyway, I've highjacked this thread long enough. The original post was about hips. There seems to be a non method based cure on the horizon in the form of Manavs so hopefully all will end well.

 

I was asked by a fellow Pro recently what method I teach, the one plane or the two plane. I replied "the one that improves the golfer infront of me"

another cure? i thought i gave one earlier.....

 

It's all good. The drill Manavs provided enabled me to determine that I was starting my downswing with a hip rotation, causing the club to get "stuck" and my finish was well left of my target. So you're all welcome to continue on with the discussion, it doesn't bother me.

... ahh yes i knew i wasnt losing my mind (yet)

 

still very happy for you JBones

 

I told him I didn't care as long as it was first class. Took him at least 15 secs to get it.

 

 

thats hilarious

[Manavs]

btw - charles is an easy fix in my estimation for two simple reasons -

 

one, he once knew how to make a swing back in the day - i've seen his videos.

 

then he all of a sudden 'forgot' how to hit a ball.

 

what simply happened was he changed his action based on some reason (good bad or indifferent) from self or another source. - mistake 1

 

once he changed his action he then started to believe that his new action was the correct action. - mistake 2

 

then he went to attempt to add or fix some other part, because the prior part was "true" in his mind - mistake 3- infinity

 

it is simply a matter of rehabing him through going through his serious of wrong turns if you will to get him to that previous point.

 

if i can say so this is one of my specialties. if you knew at one point how to hit it, i dont have to add anything, just subtract the bs you've agreed with since that time.

 

(forgive me if some of this doesnt make sense, i'm half asleep after a long work day and am way behind on this thread)

[JBones]

if you knew at one point how to hit it, i dont have to add anything, just subtract the bs you've agreed with since that time.

I need to take a lesson for this reason. Books, magazines, and the Golf Channel have been more detrimental to my game than my broken wrist back in 2002. I had never taken a lesson or read any golf related materials and was a self made 2 handi before I broke my wrist. After taking a year off and doing nothing but reading and watching golf, I got in some horrible habits, jumped to a 14 handi and have struggled mightily to get back to a 5. I just need someone to tell me to get rid of all "this" crap and just do "that".