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Why does everyone dog on the higher handicaps?


JBones

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This post is driven by the below Mark Crossfield tweet.

 

 
 
 
Why the hate on the higher handicaps?  I value everyones opinion.  I've played with high caps that stripe the ball, but just have a few mental lapses that cause the occasional high score, that same person may par the ridiculously tough #1 handicap hole on the course (I'm looking at you Mr Theoo).  Should a 30 handicap be reviewing a set of Tour blades, probably not, but that doesn't mean I don't value their feedback anyway.  It goes beyond equipment testing though.  That 30 cap with the horrible swing waiting on the 1st, that you refuse to be paired with......that might be the most interesting person you've ever met in your life.  You can't expect to grow the game when you have high profile "pros" spewing garbage like this.
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I agree.....why SHOULDN'T higher HCP'ers test this equipment, after all, it's being marketed to them.  

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I don't really care for the whole handicap thing anyway - on one hand, it inflates player's ego a little, and gives others yet another opportunity to look down upon others.

 

I agree with the above - a guy that stripes it 99% of the time, but makes a terrible decision or two per round doesn't fit the bill for his handicap. He might be perfectly suited for MB's, but the industry wants to sell him GI clubs because of a fake number...

 

But to the point - if you're testing GI clubs, a scratch golfer is not going to expose the 'improvement aspects' of the clubs.

 

 

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IF we want to test the claims manufacturers say we need to do it with Lower Handicaps. Thats what most of their claims are made on if you read the fine print.

 

That being said I think you need an everyday golfer to test the equipment. Most golfers dont hit it dead center everytime. Mid-High handicaps need to know if it works for them.

Mark can say the sub zero is great but  it wont be a great fit for most golfers.

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Not defending but the position probably would be mid to high handicaps don't have the swing repeatability that would help evaluate the product.

 

Like you said there are high handicaps that can hit the ball 300 yards relatively consistently. However, is a low handicapper going to accept it acknowledge those results.

 

It is also driven by marketing and people generally want to hear what player or instructor X thinks about the club. Who moves the sales needle for a manufacturer? People in forums like this are more open to peer reviews.

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I suppose it depends on the high handicap.  I don't mind playing with high handicaps; I've enjoyed playing with many.  However, there is a difference between one that hits a good ball, misses occasionally, or struggles with their short game but plays quickly vs. one that takes to much time, hits 6-7 shots and is not on the green yet.  Those are people that should be playing on a shorter course.

 

I could say the same thing for old guys that don't hit the ball very far, but can scramble around the course pretty well.  Do guys that bomb the ball really care what the old, short hitters think about a club's performance?  Truthfully?

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Mark can say the sub zero is great but it wont be a great fit for most golfers.

Mark needs to bag on others to help maintain his 'expert' status and keep selling youtube views. He's also going to tout the new Callaway club if Callaway is paying him to do so.

 

 

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This tweet is taken out of context.

 

The point was what MORE would a mid cap review give you that he didn't already? He says the result is all about the strike. Club path to face angle and hit location. Introducing a mid/high cap is just going to make it harder to get good shots and make reviews take longer.

 

Also if you ever watch his reviews he does mis hit clubs. He shows where the shot was on the face.

 

So Crossfield isn't bagging on high cappers. He is just stating he doesn't see any benefit to having a mid/high cap player come and do testing on his channel.

 

If you listen to MyGolfSpy you know for a test to be relevant you need statistical significance. Watching a mid/high cap guy take 10 different swings and then review a club will do absolutely nothing to tell me if the club is good or not. At that point it's about the players ability, not the clubs potential.

 

 

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Going by statistics I have read, there are a whole lot more 15 to 20 handicappers out there, than there are scratch, so chances are my reviews by players in that category, might be hitting a wider audience than reviews done by scratch players. 

 

When I'm reading a reviews both professional and the average player, I like to hear what the 15 and 23 handicap player has to say about as set of irons or driver, as a 17 that is more relevant to me than watching a scratch player say the club has a bit more right to left tendency than he'd like. But that info is probably important to the player that fights a hook or prefers a fade. 

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Going by statistics I have read, there are a whole lot more 15 to 20 handicappers out there, than there are scratch, so chances are my reviews by players in that category, might be hitting a wider audience than reviews done by scratch players.

 

When I'm reading a reviews both professional and the average player, I like to hear what the 15 and 23 handicap player has to say about as set of irons or driver, as a 17 that is more relevant to me than watching a scratch player say the club has a bit more right to left tendency than he'd like. But that info is probably important to the player that fights a hook or prefers a fade.

Crossfield's point is that with a higher cap guy there is so much inconsistency that there is no way to know which result was the club and which was ability and that particular swing. So the data is virtually meaningless unless you have some of formula for tossing out bad shots (like MGS does) and then hit enough shots to be statistically significant. And that generally doesn't happen outside an MGS Most Wanted test.

 

 

 

 

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Crossfield's point is that with a higher cap guy there is so much inconsistency that there is no way to know which result was the club and which was ability and that particular swing. So the data is virtually meaningless unless you have some of formula for tossing out bad shots (like MGS does) and then hit enough shots to be statistically significant. And that generally doesn't happen outside an MGS Most Wanted test.

 

 

 

 

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I get that, but everyone in the "average" category hits bad shots.  As long as the reviewer is saying what happens on those shots as well as the good ones, that's what I want to know.   When I reviewed the CF16's one of the things I made sure to mention was to me that balls struck thin (very low on the face, meaning I likely came out of the shot as is my biggest swing flaw) actually lost very little distance.   the first couple times I did that, I ended up on the front fringe of a green, when I fully though it would be in a bunker fronting the green, right after the swing.

 

I understand why MGS throws out the outlier's as you are presenting a lot of data with the results.  And I would hope most of us would realize that a 15 to 20 capper, would mention the good and the bad in his/her review and not just brag about the one or two hit on the screws that resulted in a career best shot. LOL

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I don't believe I've seen Crossfield out on Tour. Have you? I have watched many of his vids and they're interesting. I guess he'd never tee it up with me. I can't tell you how many times one of the higher hcp players in our Saturday game snuck in a birdie on everyone and scooped up a fat skin. Who cares. I get a kick out of it personally and happy they did. Sure we rib the hell out of him but it keep him coming back and I'm glad.

I'll play with anybody.

As for the club testing... we need a real-world cross section of testers. I play in the real world and not on YouTube.

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Crossfield's point is that with a higher cap guy there is so much inconsistency that there is no way to know which result was the club and which was ability and that particular swing. So the data is virtually meaningless unless you have some of formula for tossing out bad shots (like MGS does) and then hit enough shots to be statistically significant. And that generally doesn't happen outside an MGS Most Wanted test.

 

 

 

 

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I get that, but if we just want data for perfect strikes, then I'd only read reviews done by robot.  If we are talking putting claims to the test, then obviously a top notch players review will do that.  However if I want to know how a certain club is going to perform on off center shots, then a 15 handicap review is going to be more useful.

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I get that, but everyone in the "average" category hits bad shots.  As long as the reviewer is saying what happens on those shots as well as the good ones, that's what I want to know.   When I reviewed the CF16's one of the things I made sure to mention was to me that balls struck thin (very low on the face, meaning I likely came out of the shot as is my biggest swing flaw) actually lost very little distance.   the first couple times I did that, I ended up on the front fringe of a green, when I fully though it would be in a bunker fronting the green, right after the swing.

 

I understand why MGS throws out the outlier's as you are presenting a lot of data with the results.  And I would hope most of us would realize that a 15 to 20 capper, would mention the good and the bad in his/her review and not just brag about the one or two hit on the screws that resulted in a career best shot. LOL

But Crossfield does that too.  He actually has a video where he specifically hit's it low and on the toe to see how much distance loss there is.  So again having a high cap do it wouldn't give the review any additional information.  The only difference is that it doesn't take Crossfield 30 swings to get it where he wants to on the face.

 

I'm not bagging on high caps, I love our forum member reviews and I can find something that relates to me in every review.  I'm just explaining that his tweet meant he didn't see any benefit to bringing in a mid-high handicap person during his reviews.  For his channel and the way he does reviews I happen to agree with him.

 

Like other's have mentioned we all know guys to hit it long, hit it short, struggle with irons or pure them, struggle with short game or a wizard with a wedge.  And we knows guys at every handicap could be great with one or the other.  But that doesn't mean they are necessarily adding value to a specific club review.

 

Here's my analogy.  Have you ever watched a 4-5 year old try and do up the zipper on a winter coat?  As a guy who loves zippers I want to know if that zipper works.  I could watch my boy fumble for 5 minutes, then not get the zips lined up and get it stuck half way and get really frustrated.  I would conclude the zipper sucks.  Or as a good zipper myself I could just insert slot A into tab B and zip it up.  Now I know the zipper works.  The fault isn't with the zipper, it's with the zippee.  

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I get that, but if we just want data for perfect strikes, then I'd only read reviews done by robot.  If we are talking putting claims to the test, then obviously a top notch players review will do that.  However if I want to know how a certain club is going to perform on off center shots, then a 15 handicap review is going to be more useful.

And all I'm saying is that if Crossfield wants to know how a club performs on off center hits he can do that too, no need to bring in a 15 handicap to do it.

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Weren't he and T arguing about the club heads internals' impact on the shot vs the actual strike? It's been a few days and a lot of "bruhs" and emojis were used by mark. 🙄

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And all I'm saying is that if Crossfield wants to know how a club performs on off center hits he can do that too, no need to bring in a 15 handicap to do it.

Wouldn't him intentionally trying to hit a bad shot corrupt the data vs a mid capper legitimately missing it?

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Wouldn't him intentionally trying to hit a bad shot corrupt the data vs a mid capper legitimately missing it?

Yes it would I believe Rick shields just mentioned this which is why he didn't try to purposely mishit the epic.

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Per Crossfield:  "Can someone explain what getting a mid hcap golfer to test equipment would prove. I simply don't get it???????"

 

Yea I get a mid capper could not improve on the points made on how the equipment stacks up statistic wise. If that's all that a review is about then so be it.

 

When I'm reading reviews on golf equipment I want someone who's a hacker like me giving his take on how stuff works for him.  Hell I'm not going to be hammering the ball like Dustin Johnson but I can hang with Bubba Grimes.   I want to know how a club etc. reacts when it's not pured 90 percent of the time.  Soooooo if you're doing the review/testing for stats alone, maybe us normal guys could be left out. BUT,,,, if you want a true perspective on how certain types of equipment work, and how it works for the largest percentage of golfers, you better throw a few of us hacks in the pot. Not everybody's a chef however folks get fat off momma's cooking. ;) 

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Weren't he and T arguing about the club heads internals' impact on the shot vs the actual strike? It's been a few days and a lot of "bruhs" and emojis were used by mark. 🙄

Yeah bruh! :)  It was actually one of the more interesting, informative and civil exchanges I've read on twitter.  Lot's of good info on both sides.

 

Wouldn't him intentionally trying to hit a bad shot corrupt the data vs a mid capper legitimately missing it?

I think that's his point, all that matters to the ball is the club path, face angle and strike location.  It doesn't matter who is doing the strike and it's easier for him to manipulate the strike location than bringing in a mid cap.  Low off the toe is low off the toe.  Doesn't matter who does it.

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Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

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Crossfield's point is that with a higher cap guy there is so much inconsistency that there is no way to know which result was the club and which was ability and that particular swing. So the data is virtually meaningless unless you have some of formula for tossing out bad shots (like MGS does) and then hit enough shots to be statistically significant. And that generally doesn't happen outside an MGS Most Wanted test.

 

 

 

 

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Why do so many people think high handicappers swings aren't repeatable?

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From what I'm reading it sort of seems like the argument comes down to what type of review you want to read. And maybe handicap plays into that as well. Basically, do you want to read a perspective review or a statistical review. Benefits to both. I know that personally, as a mid/high handicapper, I tend to sway more towards the perspective review. Stats, if done correctly, should be for more or less perfect strikes. Perspective, however, tells me how it plays. Did the player have less left or right, less mishits, etc.

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This is a great discussion, seems like we have 2 different arguments going on though.

 

1.  Should Crossfield bring in mid caps for his reviews.  Personally I don't see the benefit.

 

2  Are mid/high caps reviews beneficial in club buy decisions?  I say absolutely.  That's why MGS uses 0-20 handicaps to test stuff.  It's also why I look at Most Wanted reviews a lot closer than a 6 minute youtube video when it comes club purchasing time.

 

It sounds like a lot of guys want Crossfield to turn his reviews into MGS Most Wanted types of tests.  Yeah it would be great if that could happen, but in the real world not everybody has the resources and ability to do that.  So take his reviews for what they are and like he says in every single review.  Test it for yourself!

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Why do so many people think high handicappers swings aren't repeatable?

I think that's pretty easy.

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Why do so many people think high handicappers swings aren't repeatable?

Because nobody's is perfect every time, therefore high cappers aren't either.

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Throw me under the bus. But I agree with Crossfield.

My only issue is that low caps USUALLY have higher swing speeds and that makes comparison for me difficult. I believe the club will have different measurements /characteristics and effect compared to my speed

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His Taylormade M2 vs 2017 M2 video was pretty PC the 2016 M2 was closer to the fairway and longer than the new one on both cases. I know that's only two shots, but that's a pretty big deal.

<p><strong>D:</strong>    :ping-small:   9* G400 Max w/Xcalibur TSL</p><p> </p><p><strong>F: </strong>  :callaway-small: 14* XR Pro 16 w/Hzrdous Red</p><p><strong>I:</strong>   :edel-golf-1: SLS-01 4-SW w/Paderson SL</p><p><strong>W:</strong>   :edel-golf-1: DGR 59 w/Dynamic Gold SL</p><p><strong>P:</strong> Artisan 0318 or Edel TB</p><p> 

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