Proposed new rules of golf

[downlowkey]

I think it's more about removing stroke and distance rather than saying you can look for your ball everywhere

Agreed. But my illustration was intended to show how myopic focus on improving one area can concurrently create regression in another potentially resulting in net negative effects on the whole. A viable solution, OB remains white, it's off limits to foot traffic/extraction and played either as one shot penalty relief from the point it crossed the boundary. Or perhaps, played with inherent penalty from previous spot, no additional strokes assessed. But I truly believe just turning OB into red marked lateral hazards would be disastrous for the reasons I already stated.

[revkev]

My first reaction was, "Oh great, here we go again." 

 

Upon reading the proposed changes I'm pleasantly surprised.  These are clearly a step in the right direction.  Even when they aren't exactly what I would do or even when they might have an unintended consequence the intent is to simplify and speed the game up.  It's clear from these rule changes that they've gotten the point!

 

I'm certainly going to carefully review the changes and write some comments on what I think might be a better move - for example if you really want to speed the drop process up just allow the thing to be placed - an inch, how do we determine if it's an inch or 3/4 of an inch - I can see the arguing over that one now - just place the stupid thing and move on.

 

Why give an option on hazards - just mark them all red, along with boundaries and be done with it.

 

Overall I'm very pleased.

[Severtheties]

Why give an option on hazards - just mark them all red, along with boundaries and be done with it.

 

Overall I'm very pleased.

My 15 handicap because I can't seem to hit a driver straight LOVES this idea!

[downlowkey]

I'm certainly going to carefully review the changes and write some comments on what I think might be a better move - for example if you really want to speed the drop process up just allow the thing to be placed - an inch, how do we determine if it's an inch or 3/4 of an inch - I can see the arguing over that one now - just place the stupid thing and move on.

 

Why give an option on hazards - just mark them all red, along with boundaries and be done with it.

 

Overall I'm very pleased.

The way the updated drop proposal read to me suggests any distance above the ground, not specifically one inch. Almost a drop/place hybrid.

 

Back 9 Sunday at Augusta would be very different (worse in my opinion) without yellow paint.

[Bags]

• Caddies cannot stand behind a player and help with alignment while the player takes a stance – a move that is most common in the LPGA, including with world No. 1 Lydia Ko

 

Lydia Ko does this EVERY shot, putts included......I've always thought it should be the players job to line themselves up

judge I couldn't agree more, caddie can help read putts clubs to hit etc, but lining your player NO!!

 

 

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[Kenny B]

• Caddies cannot stand behind a player and help with alignment while the player takes a stance – a move that is most common in the LPGA, including with world No. 1 Lydia Ko

 

Lydia Ko does this EVERY shot, putts included......I've always thought it should be the players job to line themselves up

This is a good rule change.  The caddie should be able to help with pointing out targets for full shots and putts on the greens, but the player has to make the shot and that includes getting into the proper stance for the shot.  In all of the tournaments that I have watched live and on TV where the caddie lines up a player, I have never seen a player back off and start over based on a comment by a caddy.  So obviously the players must be able to do a pretty good job with their alignment on their own.

[Golfspy_CG2]

Overall I think it's a step in the right direction. I suspect some will be passed and others will remain as is or be reconsidered in future revisions.

[StrokerAce]

interesting take on divots and that this wasn't addressed.  

Not sure about you guys but I hate ending up with a brilliant tee shot only to walk up and find it in the middle of a divot that someone was too lazy to repair... seems like common sense should allow you to move it to one side or the other no closer to the hole.

 

http://www.morningread.com/releases/63440bb9-b503-4da8-876d-1eae01072be6

[Kenny B]

interesting take on divots and that this wasn't addressed.  

Not sure about you guys but I hate ending up with a brilliant tee shot only to walk up and find it in the middle of a divot that someone was too lazy to repair... seems like common sense should allow you to move it to one side or the other no closer to the hole.

 

http://www.morningread.com/releases/63440bb9-b503-4da8-876d-1eae01072be6

 

Bringing up Bobby Jones' point that you can get some bad outcomes from good shots and good outcomes from bad shots doesn't apply when you hit the fairway.  The fairways I hit, whether it was a good shot or a bad shot, the lie is good... unless I am in a divot!!

 

In the case of pro tournament golf, there are no old divots.  The grounds crew fills divots after each round.  In the case of amateur golf, especially on public courses, I would venture to say that less than half of the golfers that make a divot repair it.  I would also say that on courses where walking is prevalent, that percentage is even less because walkers typically don't carry sand.  

 

I rarely make a divot and if I do it's shallow and I repair it.  However, I have been in divots that are a couple of inches deep and I feel like I just received a penalty for hitting a good shot.  I have learned that my best option is to take an unplayable lie because if I attempt to play the ball from the divot, I will likely incur more than a one shot penalty.  I don't buy that is "the rub of the green".  If that's the way the R&A and USGA want the rules, then I want to see the pros play a tournament where no divots are repaired during the course of the tournament.  It's only fair that they play under the same conditions that we do.

 

If the rules are being modified to modernize the game, improve pace of play, and help to make the game more enjoyable to "help grow the game", then I certainly don't understand why divots in the fairway cannot be designated as "ground under repair", which they certainly are from the original intent of the fairway.  

[StrokerAce]

Bringing up Bobby Jones' point that you can get some bad outcomes from good shots and good outcomes from bad shots doesn't apply when you hit the fairway.  The fairways I hit, whether it was a good shot or a bad shot, the lie is good... unless I am in a divot!!

 

In the case of pro tournament golf, there are no old divots.  The grounds crew fills divots after each round.  In the case of amateur golf, especially on public courses, I would venture to say that less than half of the golfers that make a divot repair it.  I would also say that on courses where walking is prevalent, that percentage is even less because walkers typically don't carry sand.  

 

I rarely make a divot and if I do it's shallow and I repair it.  However, I have been in divots that are a couple of inches deep and I feel like I just received a penalty for hitting a good shot.  I have learned that my best option is to take an unplayable lie because if I attempt to play the ball from the divot, I will likely incur more than a one shot penalty.  I don't buy that is "the rub of the green".  If that's the way the R&A and USGA want the rules, then I want to see the pros play a tournament where no divots are repaired during the course of the tournament.  It's only fair that they play under the same conditions that we do.

 

If the rules are being modified to modernize the game, improve pace of play, and help to make the game more enjoyable to "help grow the game", then I certainly don't understand why divots in the fairway cannot be designated as "ground under repair", which they certainly are from the original intent of the fairway.  

 

Love it!  Couldn't agree with you more.

 

Another good test 'for the pros' would be to force them to hit their tee shot on a par 3 without a tee and with the ball in a divot.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!!

[DaveP043]

 

I assume this means that you still CANNOT ground your club in the bunker behind the ball?

 

Does this mean that you can drop the ball from either as high as you can possibly reach (say it is on a slope and you want the ball to run down) or as low as you can go without it touching the ground?

 

 

Would this slow play down if everyone gets out their "distance measuring device (aka rangefinder)" ?

 

 

Does this mean while you're ball is off the green or when it is both off or on?

You cannot ground your club immediately behind the ball

 

You can drop as high as you want, but the ball can't roll out of the "relief area", whether its 20 inches or 80 inches,  You can drop it as low as one inch, tantamount to placing it.  I'd prefer to have a minimum drop height.

 

The rule doesn't change anything, really, other than the "default" condition.  Used to be, you can't unless they tell you that you can.  Now, you can, unless they tell you that you can't.

 

You can hit the flagstick while its in the hole without penalty, no matter where you're playing from, including a 6-inch putt.  I don't like this, hitting the flagstick will result in more putts holed, and the ones not holed will stay closer to the hole than they otherwise would.

 

these are all just proposals at this point.... what are the chances they get accepted?

 

can the USGA accept some and the R&A not accept some?

 

The USGA and R&A have had unified rules for a few decades now.  I think they're going to agree on which of these rules changes become permanent, for all golfers worldwide.

 

If the rules are being modified to modernize the game, improve pace of play, and help to make the game more enjoyable to "help grow the game", then I certainly don't understand why divots in the fairway cannot be designated as "ground under repair", which they certainly are from the original intent of the fairway.  

  The problem with divots, in my view, is one of definition.  If a hunk of grass is replaced, is that GUR?  If its been filled level with sand?  How about once the grass starts growing, when does it stop being GUR?  A week later?  A month?  Really, the only clear-cut option would be to allow Lift/Clean/Place in any closely mown area.  Or maybe everywhere, since the "closely mown" wording may disappear if the new rule extending the embedded ball rule to all areas through the green makes the cut.  I think its just going to be rub of the green for the foreseeable future.

 

How many of the MGS crew have responded to the USGA survey?  Go to this website, and click "Submit Your Feedback" to weigh in with the USGA.

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/feedback-landing-page.html

[silver & black]

Personally. I don't adhere to the divot rule in the fairway.... neither does anyone I play with. It's ridiculous to hit a good drive and have to play out of a hole. We just move the ball to either side, no closer to the pin. Not a big deal! None of us bother keeping a handicap, and none of us play competitively. If we did, I suppose we would have to re-think it. I would venture to say that most people out there on any given day, do the same.

[StrokerAce]

Personally. I don't adhere to the divot rule in the fairway.... neither does anyone I play with. It's ridiculous to hit a good drive and have to play out of a hole. We just move the ball to either side, no closer to the pin. Not a big deal! None of us bother keeping a handicap, and none of us play competitively. If we did, I suppose we would have to re-think it. I would venture to say that most people out there on any given day, do the same.

 

Ha!  You got that right... sometimes a "strong gust of wind" comes up at the most opportune time and ... well... things happen.  

[cksurfdude]

Totally agree with the prevailing sentiment about divots in the fairway!

 

Only modification I'd suggest, which to me seems to be in line with current and proposed rules, is to drop .. or, place .. the ball within the small new drop zone _behind_ the divot and in a line with the divot and the pin.

 

I understand the argument, re: what is, or is not, GUR .. but people will always interpret or apply a rule as they see fit.....

 

My.opinion is based on that idea the person in front of you was able to play from a clean lie - so shouldn't golfers playing later be able to play under similar ground conditions?

[cksurfdude]

Also totally agree with the idea of being allowed to rake a footprint in a bunker, then drop (not place) as close to the spot of the original lie as you can.

 

Same thinking to me as the fairway divot - the person in front of you got to play from a clean lie, why shouldn't you?

 

Also, re: bunkers - will artificial objects (though rare) in a bunker be treated as loose impediments?

[cksurfdude]

Putting and pace of play:

 

Based on my observations and experience, this is where the game really gets hung up.....

 

I know some sort of shot clock on taking your putt is not practical, but ... If 4 people take, say, even just 1 full minute per putt and let's say they all 2-putt then that's (at least) EIGHT minutes right there!

 

There should be a like 30-second rule per putt, and a 3 putt maximum per player per hole.

 

If you're not yet in then give yourself one more stroke and move on.

 

And then (please!) pack up everything and move on to the next tee! When playing from carts two people should separate the driving and the score keeping functions.

(OK, today's rant is over.)

[878787]

About time usga got in gear, why wit for another year, 40 seconds to hit the ball is best of all especially pros and amateur slow players.

 

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[878787]

Pros especially should not be allowed to have their caddy line them up for any kind of golf shot or putting.

 

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[DaveP043]

Disappointed to see stroke and distance still not addressed for amateurs.

 

 

 

I think they could have done more though.  I really wish they had addressed finding your ball in a divot in closely mowed areas and the stroke + distance penalty. 

For those who would like to have stroke and distance penalties eliminated, I suggest you read the USGA take:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html

[cksurfdude]

For those who would like to have stroke and distance penalties eliminated, I suggest you read the USGA take:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html

Just read through it (actually is readable!) .. thought-provoking .. and they outline a lot of good situations that make it impractical to change the rules...

 

Also went thru the survey (link at the bottom of that page). In a comment section I entered something to the effect of...

 

If any shot between the tee and green goes OB or is thought to be lost or thought to be unplayable, then a Provisional - from the spot of the last shot - should be required.

 

If the ball is found within the allotted time, then proceed (and pick up the provisional).

 

But if the Provisional shot goes OB or is not found within the allotted time or is unplayable, then take the Maximum Score - I think the Double Par idea is good - and pick up and move on.

[mackdaddy]

I agree they needed to make these changes.  They should address divots and OB.  

 

I think they could resolve the issues of touching the sand in the back swing with one easy statement.  

 

"With the intent to gain an advantage."  

 

​This way the inadvertent touching of a random grain or two would be handled in the most fair way.   

[hckymeyer]

For those who would like to have stroke and distance penalties eliminated, I suggest you read the USGA take:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html

I read through most of it, and while they make some solid arguments I still feel like it is pretty arbitrary to differentiate between a ball in the water and a ball OB.  I'll concede the lost ball argument, with no way to reasonable know where it was it's hard to take a drop.

 

With OB though I feel like you should have the option of a provisional or a drop at the point of OB and a 2 stroke penalty.  I can pound a ball 50 yards into the water and take a drop at point of entry.  But if my ball is 6" OB I have to re-hit from the previous spot.  

 

Make it a 2 stroke penalty, take a drop and let's move on.  I don't see how that would inherently be against "the spirit of the game".

[DaveP043]

 

Make it a 2 stroke penalty, take a drop and let's move on.  I don't see how that would inherently be against "the spirit of the game".

I'd probably support this, as an option for OB.  I doubt I'd use it very often, I always believe I can hit the next shot well, and that would almost certainly be in better position than next to a boundary, shorter than a normal distance.

 

Another reference, for those interested, is "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf", by Richard Tufts, and edited fairly recently.  You can get it pretty cheap at:

https://www.usgapublications.com/collections/rules-of-golf/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

[cksurfdude]

I read through most of it, and while they make some solid arguments I still feel like it is pretty arbitrary to differentiate between a ball in the water and a ball OB. I'll concede the lost ball argument, with no way to reasonable know where it was it's hard to take a drop.

 

With OB though I feel like you should have the option of a provisional or a drop at the point of OB and a 2 stroke penalty. I can pound a ball 50 yards into the water and take a drop at point of entry. But if my ball is 6" OB I have to re-hit from the previous spot.

 

Make it a 2 stroke penalty, take a drop and let's move on. I don't see how that would inherently be against "the spirit of the game".

Hear ya and agree in principle with what you're saying, but since the USGA doesn't trust us to keep our own score .. they def do not trust us to accurately mark, and drop in, the correct drop zone based on the exact spot where the ball went OB.......

 

For casual play - and I do not (currently) maintain a handicap - I agree that drop-and-move-on is a reasonable approach .. If you're playing from the proper spot...

 

For example, here in the Northeast there are a lot of trees along the sides of the fairways on many courses - that is: many times you cannot see the OB line...

 

So what happens? (Yes, and I've done this myself tho again I don't keep a handicap, nor play in competition.) We drop on the side of the fairway and take our next shot....

 

(And, not to start an unrelated discussion, do all players .. outside of the talented and honorable MGS crew .. really add +2 so that next shot is number 4? Which should be #6 for playing from the wrong spot....)

[poprocksncoke]

I don't know, OB and water hazards are two different things.  You know cause one of them is hitting the ball outside the boundary of the golf course.  Unless of course your talking about in-course OB, which is a totally different animal (this I am against btw).  It would make more sense though if they treated the in-course out of bounds like a water hazard (that I would be ok with).  

 

Leaving the flagstick in the cup is ok if your out trying to get a quick round in by yourself but for all other purposes the flagstick should be pulled before your ball reaches the hole.

[bullldog]

Disagree with the 1st two. Dropping & relief length.

 

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[DaveP043]

Hear ya and agree in principle with what you're saying, but since the USGA doesn't trust us to keep our own score .. 

Some new information concerning the restriction on posting solo rounds:

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/changing-course-the-usgas-mike-davis-shifts-with-the-game-and-the-culture

HANDICAP INTEGRITY

‘People wonder why we're no longer allowing rounds by a player playing by himself to count for handicap purposes. As we're embarking on this world handicapping system, one of the things inherent in The Rules of Golf is player integrity. It's all about that. But if you look at handicapping on a worldwide basis, the United States and Canada were the only two places where a player could submit scores playing only by himself. As we went into this, we realized that the credibility of somebody's handicap was really important, and in fairness, there are places in the United States and probably in Canada where we found that all of someone's rounds alone got questioned, and we thought, Well, that's not good. But this really came down to the way golf is played in Australia, Asia, Europe, South America. By the way, a person can still play alone with a caddie or a marker and have that round count. But this really came down to uniformity.”

[Golfspy_CG2]

Instead of starting anothe thread (you're welcome jlukes  ) even though there is new information on the date the rules go into affect. 

 

Here is an updated link to many of the changes outlined in the first post.    This is real progress I think.  so many things that make since.   

 

All go into affect on January 1, 2019

 

http://golfweek.com/2018/03/12/new-rules-of-golf-unveiled-set-for-2019-debut/

[PMookie]

I just read through these and didn't see one that Crenshaw talked about on his show: Not having to go back to the tee to re-hit on a ball hit OB... Anyone see that referenced???

[null]

I just read through these and didn't see one that Crenshaw talked about on his show: Not having to go back to the tee to re-hit on a ball hit OB... Anyone see that referenced???

It's in the link posted directly above your post