New Players

[Denvertim]

Okay so I am a relative new player to the game 6 years (started at age 50). I wanted to share my thoughts as a new player and Wife's thoughts as a new player.

These are things that I feel are hindering people playing the game.

Since this is in equipment I will try to tailor it to equipment.

 

1. To damn expensive. We all like new and shiny things. But sticker shock of new equipment is real. Now you can buy used and most of us now know where to get this. But its hard just getting into the game of knowing what is good/ bad / crap.

 

2. Reviews are biased to low handicappers. If its a game improvement model that a new player would use why in the world do you have the majority of your testers using it and reviewing it. The reviewers should be people the clubs are meant for. I don't want a single digit handicapper telling me that a club is this or that when he isn't going to ever use that type of club. They should be tested by people from classes under the guidance of instructors. with that input it would be great and useful knowledge. This is to include clubs balls and etc.

 

If MyGolf has a high handicapper on staff i haven't seen them. I like their input but as above its biased to the low handicapper and isnt always relevant. I will use an example. Does the input of Dale Earnhardt  matter about what car you want to buy? I know in the past most of us loved the info on what the Tour players use but the game needs to change from that group (shrinking) to the new or potential golfers who want to play for fun,yes get better but play for fun

 

3. Elitism; This goes to all and why not exclusively equipment based it is in part. This game has way to many people full of themselves. People feeling pressured by friends or fellow players to play from tees they shouldn't, to play a certain way etc. If you are on tour fine the rules apply and follow each and every one, dame as if your using your score to input you your USGA handicap etc or on a tournament. But if not allow players to play to have fun! 

 

This game needs more fun and your kidding friends that want to use or should use the forward tees only makes it less fun for them. Look at it this way. Do you really think Spieth would feel any accomplishment beating you in a game? 

 

The best instructor I had would play rounds with us to work on not only the mechanics but course management. He would play with the Tee box we played with. He also encouraged us to do that. One it speeds up the game if a foursome doesn't always use 4 different boxes and 2 it really changes the course. Try playing a course from the forward tees once in awhile its a blast and changes the course a lot.

 

Any that's my beginning salvo. Maybe more to follow. Have fun!

[JudgeSmails]

 

 

2. Reviews are biased to low handicappers. If its a game improvement model that a new player would use why in the world do you have the majority of your testers using it and reviewing it. The reviewers should be people the clubs are meant for. I don't want a single digit handicapper telling me that a club is this or that when he isn't going to ever use that type of club. They should be tested by people from classes under the guidance of instructors. with that input it would be great and useful knowledge. This is to include clubs balls and etc.

 

Many reviews are like that, yes.....but here it IS a little different...pay attention to the forum member review section.  These are golfers, just like yourself, who MGS selects to review products.  When they have, say a driver for testing, they might pick 4 members, and they will be from all different handicap levels.   You will find this forum is unlike many of the other big golf forums, noone will look down on you here, no matter your handicap or amount of posts

[BigtazzGolf]

Lot on your mind eh Tim?

Lol Welcome to MGS and I'll second what Judge said.

Get involved and enjoy the forum.

 

Tazz

Grip n Rip it

[ole gray]

Welcome to the forum 🏌️

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

Okay so I am a relative new player to the game 6 years (started at age 50). I wanted to share my thoughts as a new player and Wife's thoughts as a new player.

These are things that I feel are hindering people playing the game.

Since this is in equipment I will try to tailor it to equipment.

 

1. To damn expensive. We all like new and shiny things. But sticker shock of new equipment is real. Now you can buy used and most of us now know where to get this. But its hard just getting into the game of knowing what is good/ bad / crap.

 

2. Reviews are biased to low handicappers. If its a game improvement model that a new player would use why in the world do you have the majority of your testers using it and reviewing it. The reviewers should be people the clubs are meant for. I don't want a single digit handicapper telling me that a club is this or that when he isn't going to ever use that type of club. They should be tested by people from classes under the guidance of instructors. with that input it would be great and useful knowledge. This is to include clubs balls and etc.

 

If MyGolf has a high handicapper on staff i haven't seen them. I like their input but as above its biased to the low handicapper and isnt always relevant. I will use an example. Does the input of Dale Earnhardt  matter about what car you want to buy? I know in the past most of us loved the info on what the Tour players use but the game needs to change from that group (shrinking) to the new or potential golfers who want to play for fun,yes get better but play for fun

 

3. Elitism; This goes to all and why not exclusively equipment based it is in part. This game has way to many people full of themselves. People feeling pressured by friends or fellow players to play from tees they shouldn't, to play a certain way etc. If you are on tour fine the rules apply and follow each and every one, dame as if your using your score to input you your USGA handicap etc or on a tournament. But if not allow players to play to have fun! 

 

This game needs more fun and your kidding friends that want to use or should use the forward tees only makes it less fun for them. Look at it this way. Do you really think Spieth would feel any accomplishment beating you in a game? 

 

The best instructor I had would play rounds with us to work on not only the mechanics but course management. He would play with the Tee box we played with. He also encouraged us to do that. One it speeds up the game if a foursome doesn't always use 4 different boxes and 2 it really changes the course. Try playing a course from the forward tees once in awhile its a blast and changes the course a lot.

 

Any that's my beginning salvo. Maybe more to follow. Have fun!

 

 

Let's answer these one at a time.

 

• The game is too expensive: Yes, I tend to agree this is true. But are cars too expensive? Sure, a $500,000 Lamborghini is too expensive (for some) but you can also buy a brand new Toyota Yaris for $18,000 and some other makes for even less. Does that mean the person who can't afford the Lambo shouldn't buy a "new" car just because they can't afford that vehicle? No, it doesn't. Expensive is in the eye of the beholder, and as long as the general golfing public knows what they are comfortable with, they can get into the game. Case in point, I have a good friend who is new to the game and bought a whole set (used, good condition) on Ebay for $200. It's Taylormade stuff that is perfect for him. That's no worse than anything he could buy new.

I think the concept of too expensive is dangerous. Yes, to buy the highest end and totally custom fit set of clubs it can be expensive. But there are different tiers of equipment/service. We choose to pay for which tier we start with. The barrier to entry is no higher than what we choose and at that, who is to blame for the cost associated with playing the game? No one goes out and demands to buy the most expensive rifle to start hunting when they turn 16, why do we feel we need to start at the top end when picking up the game of golf?

 

• Bias from low handicappers: I think this boils down to your definition of a low handicapper. As others have said, we try to pick who we have testing the product based on the best representation of the needs of the product we are testing and also in the best way for the general golfing audience to get an impression on what it does for them. 

Be careful what boxes you draw here though. There are MANY low handicap players who play super game improvement irons, and many high handicappers who play blades. We all have different deficiencies in our games and for the player with the higher handicap their biggest issue may not be ball striking. Tour players are even all over the place with what they game, even though it's tempting to assume they all play blades, they don't.

 

• MGS Staff Handicap: I'm a 15 at best and at this point (beginning of the season) probably closer to a 20. I struggle with distance like no other and am usually saved by my short game. I would volunteer myself as the evidence against MGS not staffing anyone with a high handicap. I may not be a high handicapper at the end of the season, but that's due to my passion and commitment to the game. Doesn't take away my connection/perspective of a high handicapper though.

 

• Elitism: Couldn't agree more with this one my friend! This game is NOT about how good you are. I don't care if someone bombs it 50 yards past me down the fairway or beats me by 20 strokes. It doesn't matter. This is a leisurely game and we all are owed the same respect as a tour pro among each other. You are right that the lack of respect and intimidation around playing this game causes issues with people picking the sport up. That absolutely isn't right and isn't healthy for the game in general.

One context to keep in mind though, just because someone is an established golfer/good player that doesn't mean they're an elitist. Most times people have that bias that they apply to those people and that ultimately isn't fair to those people either. It goes both ways at the end of the day.

[hckymeyer]

It kind of depends on what you mean by high handicap, but MGS does use a wide range both in blog (Most Wanted) testing also here on the forums with our member testing and reviews.  For last years driver Most Wanted the handicap range was +2-16, this years putter testing range was +1-18 caps.  

 

We don't put a handicap range on forum member testing and we also don't have a requirement.  Participate in the forums and be a good member and you got a shot at testing.  Doesn't matter what your handicap is.

 

As for the tee boxes I'm a firm believer in play what makes you happy.  If moving up to the whites, or red's or whatever other color your course might have makes the game more enjoyable then please do so.  If you are playing with a bunch of friends and want them to play the same box that is up to you and them. 

 

However the same rule apply's in reverse as well.  If you are playing with some better golfers there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to play a longer tee box.  All parties just need to be respectful of each other play from where they are most comfortable.

[Kenny B]

Welcome from the Pacific Northwest Denvertim.  Glad you joined us, and yes the points you raised are certainly important to new players.  The equipment is expensive, but as has been shown in a recent thread

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/18283-walmart-clubs-do-better-for-sub-200/

decent clubs can be had for not a lot of money.  Ask any club pro about which clubs are worthy of playing for your game, and I am sure they can come up with several from which to choose.

 

We have had discussions about who should be doing the reviews, and valid points are made for both low and high handicap testers.  I will qualify that a little; not all high handicap players are poor ball strikers, but it does take decent, not always great but decent ball strikers to test equipment and evaluate their results.  I believe that MGS does a pretty good job both on their Most Wanted testing and on forum testing of equipment.  The point of the testing is to provide people with an idea of club performance so they can make informed decisions on what equipment they may want to try... not go out and buy this club.

 

As far as elitism... this forum isn't.  We have lots of great discussions and banter back and forth is all in good fun.  People here come from all walks of life and various experiences in golf.  I began playing at age 45 and have been playing for 25 years.  My wife and I have played with people at our course who are beginners and scratch players.  I can have fun with any of them.  I find it No Big Deal to play from different tee boxes.  People should play wherever they feel comfortable.  My wife usually plays from the forward tees, and I have played from there.  She has played from the whites if other people are playing there, as have I.  I typically play from the Blues because most of the guys I play with play there.  I have never observed anyone kidding another golfer from playing forward tees.  If you have observed that, maybe you should look for a different course.  I would not play with someone who had that attitude.  Life's too short.  

 

Best of luck, and enjoy the game.  I am looking forward to more of your thoughts!

[PlaidJacket]

Hmmm? I wish I was an elite player. You'd see me on TV each weekend. The reality is I'm 62 and have been playing golf forever it seems like. Since I was a kid anyway. I'm a 6 hcp... sort of. Last weekend while playing from the White Tees I shot 80. That's not elite golf not a 6 hcp round.

Golf clubs can be expensive. Mine were. However, I'd suggest to any beginning golfer to get a nice used set for perhaps a couple hundred. All sports can be expensive. I was recently in a local sporting goods shop and they had little league aluminum bats for $400 and up. $350 gloves, football helmets for $400... and on and on.

I play regularly and my golf buddies are all between say a 6 hcp like me up to perhaps 16-18. We have a blast. It's not all about your playing ability so don't be intimidated by a golfer who's better than you because tomorrow he too might shoot a 90. Like I do sometimes.

The reviews here on MGS are probably the most accurate anywhere and honest. Certainly unbiased.

 

I have a feeling Denvertim you're intimated buy a bunch of jerks you have been playing with. Go find another group. Finally, stick with it and improve you game if you can. If not just enjoy it for what it is.

 

Welcome to the Forum.

[silver & black]

Welcome to MGS. You won't find any elitism nonsense on here. There are some really good players on here with + handicaps, and they are all good guys that will talk with anyone here about the game, equipment, etc..... 

 

I understand where you're coming from.... my life is difficult at this point, and I don't have the income or the means that I used to have.  I play golf because I love it. I find a way to play a few "nice" courses a season, with the majority of my playing being at a local public course that I pay $330.00 a year for a membership. That allows me to play all year for that amount if I walk..... as many holes as I can. With a cart its $12.00 for 18 holes.

 

Yep, equipment is expensive, and mine is no exception. I value quality tools, so I don't scrimp on my clubs. I have quality equipment, but I play with it for years before I think about replacing it/them.

 

I agree with you about having fun. As long as you and your friends are fine with a few rules being overlooked, so what!? We aren't playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you play in a tournament, you need to follow the rules..... if you're just out having a good time, no harm no foul. But... if you turn your scores in for a handicap, I wouldn't use scores from rounds like that..... they have to be legit and the rules followed. Just my .02.

[djahubes]

Let's answer these one at a time.

• The game is too expensive: Yes, I tend to agree this is true. But are cars too expensive? Sure, a $500,000 Lamborghini is too expensive (for some) but you can also buy a brand new Toyota Yaris for $18,000 and some other makes for even less. Does that mean the person who can't afford the Lambo shouldn't buy a "new" car just because they can't afford that vehicle? No, it doesn't. Expensive is in the eye of the beholder, and as long as the general golfing public knows what they are comfortable with, they can get into the game. Case in point, I have a good friend who is new to the game and bought a whole set (used, good condition) on Ebay for $200. It's Taylormade stuff that is perfect for him. That's no worse than anything he could buy new.

I think the concept of too expensive is dangerous. Yes, to buy the highest end and totally custom fit set of clubs it can be expensive. But there are different tiers of equipment/service. We choose to pay for which tier we start with. The barrier to entry is no higher than what we choose and at that, who is to blame for the cost associated with playing the game? No one goes out and demands to buy the most expensive rifle to start hunting when they turn 16, why do we feel we need to start at the top end when picking up the game of golf?

• Bias from low handicappers: I think this boils down to your definition of a low handicapper. As others have said, we try to pick who we have testing the product based on the best representation of the needs of the product we are testing and also in the best way for the general golfing audience to get an impression on what it does for them.

Be careful what boxes you draw here though. There are MANY low handicap players who play super game improvement irons, and many high handicappers who play blades. We all have different deficiencies in our games and for the player with the higher handicap their biggest issue may not be ball striking. Tour players are even all over the place with what they game, even though it's tempting to assume they all play blades, they don't.

• MGS Staff Handicap: I'm a 15 at best and at this point (beginning of the season) probably closer to a 20. I struggle with distance like no other and am usually saved by my short game. I would volunteer myself as the evidence against MGS not staffing anyone with a high handicap. I may not be a high handicapper at the end of the season, but that's due to my passion and commitment to the game. Doesn't take away my connection/perspective of a high handicapper though.

[*]Elitism:

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

I am not sure I buy the elitism point mentioned above. If someone is pressuring a player to play back, then they have no concept of the game. It works both ways. I am comfortable playing all tees, but would never put a person in the position to play the tips, one because it's no fun for anyone, and it would drag the round out. I play in a group with a HC range from +1 to around 25. We ALL play the whites in a modified stableford, and the higher HCs usually win the money cause they get all the shots. If you are in a group pressuring to play back, leave that one and find some folks who like to have fun!

 

 

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Are you referencing my post or OP's? I didn't mention anything about tees and am just clarifying.

[tony@CIC]

I'm a relatively new player as well (started when I retired). I occasionally run across 'elitist players' but I found the same in tennis, sailing, etc. Unfortunately some of these guys are in my men's league which I want to play in because I get the jitters - all self induced and I do want to get better. However I decided this year I wont let them bother me.

 

Cost of equipment expensive? As others have remarked there are a lot of options - much more than other sports or activities. Expensive - try boating or skiing. At the same time, I am amazed at the frequency of new equipment introduced - not to mention the selection golf balls. Geez just go to Dicks or GG - from an outsider's perspective this business could do with some consolidation but looks to be going the other way.

 

Having said all that I'm happy making incremental improvements every year, replacing clubs only when needed and disregarding elitist players

 

 

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[Liberty Ball Markers]

I would agree with a lot what has been said above.

 

You mentioned that you have been playing 6 years. At this point, you can be the welcome wagon for new players at your course this spring.

 

You know the course, how things tend to work, and you know a lot of the folks there. You also know exactly what intimidated you from the start.

 

Invite those new guys/gals to join you for a round, play whatever tees they like, and agree on what rules are important vs. what can be overlooked.

 

In no time, you will have a large group of golf buddies that you have sorted out on the course, and can play with in a relaxed, comfortable manner. You will also pave the way for others to welcome new players in a much more welcoming manner.

 

 

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[Liberty Ball Markers]

I guess I should explain myself a bit - I was not trying make your issues your responsibility.

 

I have learned though, that you find out a lot about people when you golf with them.

 

I have played golf with a lot of friends from work. Many (most) of them, I really get along with at work, but can't stand them at the golf course.

 

I have also joined up with strangers at the course, and not only become regular playing partners, but good friends.

 

Over the course of time, depending on who I play with, I play from every set of tees. I think it makes some people more comfortable if everyone is on the same tee box. Like you said - there is a different view and challenge from every set of tees.

 

And those "elite" guys? In my experience, they are usually what we call "all gear no game". I've been stuck with those guys, and a lot of times their scores get really big when you make them adhere to the rules.

 

Anyway - you've found a great online community here. No bull$hitters here. Hopefully you can find some of the good people that share similar interest in the game at your local course as well!

 

 

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[djahubes]

Are you referencing my post or OP's? I didn't mention anything about tees and am just clarifying.

OPs, just wanted to respond in the thread.

 

 

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[djahubes]

Are you referencing my post or OP's? I didn't mention anything about tees and am just clarifying.

OP's. just trying to make a point that it's not really elitism, more of an ego thing. A lot of guys play back and shouldn't bc they feel that's the thing to do.

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

OP's. just trying to make a point that it's not really elitism, more of an ego thing. A lot of guys play back and shouldn't bc they feel that's the thing to do.

 

 

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Agreed! My post was quoted so I was just making sure I didn't miss something! Haha.

 

I totally agree though that elitism is unnecessary and doesn't have a place anywhere, let alone the golf course.

[mrsmith123]

Okay so I am a relative new player to the game 6 years (started at age 50). I wanted to share my thoughts as a new player and Wife's thoughts as a new player.

These are things that I feel are hindering people playing the game.

Since this is in equipment I will try to tailor it to equipment.

 

1. To damn expensive. We all like new and shiny things. But sticker shock of new equipment is real. Now you can buy used and most of us now know where to get this. But its hard just getting into the game of knowing what is good/ bad / crap.

 

2. Reviews are biased to low handicappers. If its a game improvement model that a new player would use why in the world do you have the majority of your testers using it and reviewing it. The reviewers should be people the clubs are meant for. I don't want a single digit handicapper telling me that a club is this or that when he isn't going to ever use that type of club. They should be tested by people from classes under the guidance of instructors. with that input it would be great and useful knowledge. This is to include clubs balls and etc.

 

If MyGolf has a high handicapper on staff i haven't seen them. I like their input but as above its biased to the low handicapper and isnt always relevant. I will use an example. Does the input of Dale Earnhardt matter about what car you want to buy? I know in the past most of us loved the info on what the Tour players use but the game needs to change from that group (shrinking) to the new or potential golfers who want to play for fun,yes get better but play for fun

 

3. Elitism; This goes to all and why not exclusively equipment based it is in part. This game has way to many people full of themselves. People feeling pressured by friends or fellow players to play from tees they shouldn't, to play a certain way etc. If you are on tour fine the rules apply and follow each and every one, dame as if your using your score to input you your USGA handicap etc or on a tournament. But if not allow players to play to have fun!

 

This game needs more fun and your kidding friends that want to use or should use the forward tees only makes it less fun for them. Look at it this way. Do you really think Spieth would feel any accomplishment beating you in a game?

 

The best instructor I had would play rounds with us to work on not only the mechanics but course management. He would play with the Tee box we played with. He also encouraged us to do that. One it speeds up the game if a foursome doesn't always use 4 different boxes and 2 it really changes the course. Try playing a course from the forward tees once in awhile its a blast and changes the course a lot.

 

Any that's my beginning salvo. Maybe more to follow. Have fun!

Denvertim, welcome!! I can understand your arguments (I try to be accepting of differing views, I was a philosophy major) but I would to beg to differ on them.

 

1. Price of this sport when you reference equipment is actually not different then it was ever. Annual inflation over the last 120 years of our economy will back that up. I will however concede that titanium and other alloys are more costly then wood. Drivers were $400 back in 2000 to buy them used for the high end ones. The cost of products has just been a product of the system (people as a whole will pay it because they can get dialed in via a professional fitting). Keep in mind that a non-adjustable Cleveland Launcher requires much less resources and time from factory to fit then a 2017 Tmade M1. And please don't forget that "new" is a complete mental game by manufacturers. I'm a 2 hdcp playing the original Launcher head and I still hit it 3-Bills most of the time. Don't get caught up in price because eBay and some good advice go a long way. I've never paid retail for any of my gear (the best money spent is in lessons with a good instructor).

 

2. Reviews Biased: I'm calling bull shinto on that. This is the most unbiased site I've ever been a part of. The pure conjecture of that is absurd. If you want bias, go read golf digest or a company's advertising. The point of this site is to inform not to pander. Plus pay attention to the hdcp of people posting and responding. And just because someone like me who is a low hdcp provides feedback or gets to test a product doesn't mean anything other than I can give a more detailed response about the product. Is a 30-yr mechanic or a 6-month apprentice gonna give you better feedback about how to fix a car?

 

3. Elitism: Really? Did you miss the definition of this word? I'm quoting from www.dictionary.com: "(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society". This term doesn't even apply to golf as it is right now. To be "elite" would mean a high-level player like Jordan Spieth or Phil Mickelson. I have buddies who love playing the Tips but that doesn't make them an "elitist". I have friends who have to have the newest irons from PXG golf and they do because they are wealthy businessmen, but they are some of the most humble and giving people I know. An elitist believes themselves to be better then others because of who they are as a person or a job title. Just because you spend money on new equipment or wanna play tees that you clearly aren't skilled enough for doesn't make you a different person.

 

Unfortunately you are perpetuating the stereotype here. That stereotype is someone who feels a golf round should be $25, only last 3 hours, and bending the rules is "okay" because it speeds up play. If you are going to be "that guy", it really takes away from the experience on this site. If I'm spending hard earned dollars on a round of golf that is say $70 at a nice course, I certainly hope it doesn't only take 3 hours.

 

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[Denvertim]

Great feedback , thank you.

My point on the expensive side of equipment is , yes you can and should buy used at first, but getting info is hard. I decided to get an instructor right of the bat so I was given good info in what to buy. In fact he kept suggesting that I not buy new till I break 100 😀.

Then I discussed it with him got fit and still use those clubs the Callaway XR.

Point being is yes it's just like buying a used car when your not an educated car enthusiasts.

 

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[downlowkey]

Welcome Tim. There are several MGS members in the Denver metro. Please reach out if you ever need some advice on equipment or wanna tee it up somewhere.

On to the business of your prior missive. If you don't intend to stay locked up in your house, in our society elitism is unavoidable. But as a community, golfers are on the short list of groups with overwhelmingly positive character traits generally outshining the bright light of judgement. Despite technological advances, the physics of hitting a round ball with a flat club to a 4.25" target a quarter of a mile away is punishing proposition for any mortal. And the only route to becoming a proficient player is a great deal of hard work.

 

By the numbers I am an elite player and take some pride in the tens of thousands of hours spent practicing over the past 20 years. But outside of tournament golf, almost all my regular playing partners have double digit handicaps. I enjoy playing golf with them because they are students of the game and respectful but moreover they are nice guys and I enjoy their company.

 

When I have a bad round it still inevitably bruises my ego. I'd venture it's similar to the bruising your ego takes when comparing the frustrating state of your current skills against great players. However, expecting great players to be magnanimously great people is absurd. Bad players certainly aren't bad people. I'll agree that when a great player is a jerk it's easy to conflate that individual's ego as representative of elitist character flaws permeating the proficient golfing community but it's simply not true. I personally believe ego is the 15th club in every golfer's bag and it generally finds what it seeks. So if you maintain a myopic focus on identifying and judging elitism, surprise surprise, you're going to find it.

 

Golf seems to work best as a gentleman's game and I think if you'd ignore skill level entirely and focus on developing golf relationships the same way you develop friendships outside the game, you will soon be whistling a more pleasant tune. On that note, be cognizant of how rarely egos rage within this forum and you should really enjoy interacting here.

 

 

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[Denvertim]

Let's answer these one at a time.

 

• The game is too expensive: Yes, I tend to agree this is true. But are cars too expensive? Sure, a $500,000 Lamborghini is too expensive (for some) but you can also buy a brand new Toyota Yaris for $18,000 and some other makes for even less. Does that mean the person who can't afford the Lambo shouldn't buy a "new" car just because they can't afford that vehicle? No, it doesn't. Expensive is in the eye of the beholder, and as long as the general golfing public knows what they are comfortable with, they can get into the game. Case in point, I have a good friend who is new to the game and bought a whole set (used, good condition) on Ebay for $200. It's Taylormade stuff that is perfect for him. That's no worse than anything he could buy new.

I think the concept of too expensive is dangerous. Yes, to buy the highest end and totally custom fit set of clubs it can be expensive. But there are different tiers of equipment/service. We choose to pay for which tier we start with. The barrier to entry is no higher than what we choose and at that, who is to blame for the cost associated with playing the game? No one goes out and demands to buy the most expensive rifle to start hunting when they turn 16, why do we feel we need to start at the top end when picking up the game of golf?

 

• Bias from low handicappers: I think this boils down to your definition of a low handicapper. As others have said, we try to pick who we have testing the product based on the best representation of the needs of the product we are testing and also in the best way for the general golfing audience to get an impression on what it does for them. 

Be careful what boxes you draw here though. There are MANY low handicap players who play super game improvement irons, and many high handicappers who play blades. We all have different deficiencies in our games and for the player with the higher handicap their biggest issue may not be ball striking. Tour players are even all over the place with what they game, even though it's tempting to assume they all play blades, they don't.

 

• MGS Staff Handicap: I'm a 15 at best and at this point (beginning of the season) probably closer to a 20. I struggle with distance like no other and am usually saved by my short game. I would volunteer myself as the evidence against MGS not staffing anyone with a high handicap. I may not be a high handicapper at the end of the season, but that's due to my passion and commitment to the game. Doesn't take away my connection/perspective of a high handicapper though.

 

• Elitism: Couldn't agree more with this one my friend! This game is NOT about how good you are. I don't care if someone bombs it 50 yards past me down the fairway or beats me by 20 strokes. It doesn't matter. This is a leisurely game and we all are owed the same respect as a tour pro among each other. You are right that the lack of respect and intimidation around playing this game causes issues with people picking the sport up. That absolutely isn't right and isn't healthy for the game in general.

One context to keep in mind though, just because someone is an established golfer/good player that doesn't mean they're an elitist. Most times people have that bias that they apply to those people and that ultimately isn't fair to those people either. It goes both ways at the end of the day.

Great Info

What I would love to see or would find useful is a conclusion based on Handicap

 

Let's answer these one at a time.

 

• The game is too expensive: Yes, I tend to agree this is true. But are cars too expensive? Sure, a $500,000 Lamborghini is too expensive (for some) but you can also buy a brand new Toyota Yaris for $18,000 and some other makes for even less. Does that mean the person who can't afford the Lambo shouldn't buy a "new" car just because they can't afford that vehicle? No, it doesn't. Expensive is in the eye of the beholder, and as long as the general golfing public knows what they are comfortable with, they can get into the game. Case in point, I have a good friend who is new to the game and bought a whole set (used, good condition) on Ebay for $200. It's Taylormade stuff that is perfect for him. That's no worse than anything he could buy new.

I think the concept of too expensive is dangerous. Yes, to buy the highest end and totally custom fit set of clubs it can be expensive. But there are different tiers of equipment/service. We choose to pay for which tier we start with. The barrier to entry is no higher than what we choose and at that, who is to blame for the cost associated with playing the game? No one goes out and demands to buy the most expensive rifle to start hunting when they turn 16, why do we feel we need to start at the top end when picking up the game of golf?

 

• Bias from low handicappers: I think this boils down to your definition of a low handicapper. As others have said, we try to pick who we have testing the product based on the best representation of the needs of the product we are testing and also in the best way for the general golfing audience to get an impression on what it does for them. 

Be careful what boxes you draw here though. There are MANY low handicap players who play super game improvement irons, and many high handicappers who play blades. We all have different deficiencies in our games and for the player with the higher handicap their biggest issue may not be ball striking. Tour players are even all over the place with what they game, even though it's tempting to assume they all play blades, they don't.

 

• MGS Staff Handicap: I'm a 15 at best and at this point (beginning of the season) probably closer to a 20. I struggle with distance like no other and am usually saved by my short game. I would volunteer myself as the evidence against MGS not staffing anyone with a high handicap. I may not be a high handicapper at the end of the season, but that's due to my passion and commitment to the game. Doesn't take away my connection/perspective of a high handicapper though.

 

• Elitism: Couldn't agree more with this one my friend! This game is NOT about how good you are. I don't care if someone bombs it 50 yards past me down the fairway or beats me by 20 strokes. It doesn't matter. This is a leisurely game and we all are owed the same respect as a tour pro among each other. You are right that the lack of respect and intimidation around playing this game causes issues with people picking the sport up. That absolutely isn't right and isn't healthy for the game in general.

One context to keep in mind though, just because someone is an established golfer/good player that doesn't mean they're an elitist. Most times people have that bias that they apply to those people and that ultimately isn't fair to those people either. It goes both ways at the end of the day.

Great info,

What I guess , in equipment, I would love to see;

Take your review of the Callaway Fusion Driver.....

Its very informative and awesome. What is missing is the breakdown of  what each group thought.\

The charts of different users was great and informative.

That club is mainly, and I do understand the categories have merged into each other, but mainly a driver for a bit higher Handicapper.

So what did that group feel. I love science but science isn't the only thing that makes us buy. What did each group feel about a club? SO lets say the higher handicap group loved the improvement, But the others groups didn't like it at all? So then I have the information that if I improve on my Handicap this club will have diminishing returns. (example not reality)

 

I challenge each and every User to get someone new into golf to this site.

I challenge Golfspy to look at what would be good intro clubs (used or new) 

 

I once spent over 2 hours with a Callaway Rep talking about Balls and what People should be using and why?. We love the long ball and its fun, but once I changed to a ball that I could get some spin on with wedges etc I dropped my wedge shots down alot and my putting dramatically improved because of where I was leaving my ball. He taught me to work back on a ball. Meaning find one I liked to put and use wedges on then take those and find a good ball that does good with my slower swing (90)

 

Anyway getting more people in golf will only help the game grow. This site has taught me a lot and can teach me more. 

Thanks for your non equipment company bias, its a great breath of fresh air.

[Denvertim]

Denvertim, welcome!! I can understand your arguments (I try to be accepting of differing views, I was a philosophy major) but I would to beg to differ on them.

 

1. Price of this sport when you reference equipment is actually not different then it was ever. Annual inflation over the last 120 years of our economy will back that up. I will however concede that titanium and other alloys are more costly then wood. Drivers were $400 back in 2000 to buy them used for the high end ones. The cost of products has just been a product of the system (people as a whole will pay it because they can get dialed in via a professional fitting). Keep in mind that a non-adjustable Cleveland Launcher requires much less resources and time from factory to fit then a 2017 Tmade M1. And please don't forget that "new" is a complete mental game by manufacturers. I'm a 2 hdcp playing the original Launcher head and I still hit it 3-Bills most of the time. Don't get caught up in price because eBay and some good advice go a long way. I've never paid retail for any of my gear (the best money spent is in lessons with a good instructor).

 

2. Reviews Biased: I'm calling bull shinto on that. This is the most unbiased site I've ever been a part of. The pure conjecture of that is absurd. If you want bias, go read golf digest or a company's advertising. The point of this site is to inform not to pander. Plus pay attention to the hdcp of people posting and responding. And just because someone like me who is a low hdcp provides feedback or gets to test a product doesn't mean anything other than I can give a more detailed response about the product. Is a 30-yr mechanic or a 6-month apprentice gonna give you better feedback about how to fix a car?

 

3. Elitism: Really? Did you miss the definition of this word? I'm quoting from www.dictionary.com: "(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society". This term doesn't even apply to golf as it is right now. To be "elite" would mean a high-level player like Jordan Spieth or Phil Mickelson. I have buddies who love playing the Tips but that doesn't make them an "elitist". I have friends who have to have the newest irons from PXG golf and they do because they are wealthy businessmen, but they are some of the most humble and giving people I know. An elitist believes themselves to be better then others because of who they are as a person or a job title. Just because you spend money on new equipment or wanna play tees that you clearly aren't skilled enough for doesn't make you a different person.

 

Unfortunately you are perpetuating the stereotype here. That stereotype is someone who feels a golf round should be $25, only last 3 hours, and bending the rules is "okay" because it speeds up play. If you are going to be "that guy", it really takes away from the experience on this site. If I'm spending hard earned dollars on a round of golf that is say $70 at a nice course, I certainly hope it doesn't only take 3 hours.

 

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No your definition of Elitism is exactly what I am talking about, its the people, or organizations, or places that feel "by themselves" to be superior. I really am talking about the courses that look down at new players. If you don't believe they are out there you haven't  been told while paying that this is a course meant for "established players" maybe I would be better playing somewhere else. And yes that happened an no I left and was told in email that that person was told not to do that but got the same look again next time. IT WAS A CITY COURSE!

anyway i could give you a lot more examples.. if you want to try an experiment next time you go to a new course say you just started this game last year or this year...

as per players yes and no they don't get to me if I feel they are annoyed at my 4 to 4 and half hour play a like to piss them off by slowing down more. again I play in the afternoon. you want speed golf go play in morning when the faster players play. I feel no hurry to go quickly to wait 10 minutes in the tee box for the next group to clear.

I didn't say anything about the Price of courses nor anything about 3 hours play in fact i have been a believer that 4 and half is fair and some weekends i know it will be more and just soak it in.

[jlew2144]

Great Info

What I would love to see or would find useful is a conclusion based on Handicap

 

The problem with definitive conclusions is that it's too difficult to do. As an example: 

 

Two people are selected to review a new set of irons-- myself (18 hcp) and JoeBob (also a 18hcp)

 

I struggle with my wedge game and putter, while my irons are solid.

 

JoeBob struggles with his Irons but short game and driver are on point.

 

My review is going to be different than JoeBob's in all likelihood because our games are completely different. So drawing conclusions based only on handicap I believe would be impossible to do. 

[HighFade]

Welcome!

 

I agree with every word - except MGS not having higher handicap staff. I have met and played with staff and members. They run from scratch-ish up to 20-25hcap.

 

And you are the best kind of member to have. You have something to say! Sparking a conversation is half the battle here.

[mrsmith123]

No your definition of Elitism is exactly what I am talking about, its the people, or organizations, or places that feel "by themselves" to be superior. I really am talking about the courses that look down at new players. If you don't believe they are out there you haven't been told while paying that this is a course meant for "established players" maybe I would be better playing somewhere else. And yes that happened an no I left and was told in email that that person was told not to do that but got the same look again next time. IT WAS A CITY COURSE!

anyway i could give you a lot more examples.. if you want to try an experiment next time you go to a new course say you just started this game last year or this year...

as per players yes and no they don't get to me if I feel they are annoyed at my 4 to 4 and half hour play a like to piss them off by slowing down more. again I play in the afternoon. you want speed golf go play in morning when the faster players play. I feel no hurry to go quickly to wait 10 minutes in the tee box for the next group to clear.

I didn't say anything about the Price of courses nor anything about 3 hours play in fact i have been a believer that 4 and half is fair and some weekends i know it will be more and just soak it in.

I getcha, I used to be in the golf industry and there can be some people who are a real piece of work. Each club is different, I do know there are lots of clubs and people out there who do think they are better because they have a country club membership (most people I discovered are just "country club poor" but have the membership just to impress people). Anyway, I remember as a young kid having old guys try to tell me what I should be doing or where I should play.

 

Sent from my Sprint LG G5 mobile device

[Denvertim]

This thread may be dead but the latest reviews are out and MGS once again did an outstanding job. 

Was wondering though if they could add in groupings. Like what the High handicappers liked and why .. What the Mid etc etc.

Would be interested in knowing that.

As a (now) 15 handicapper I have issues with long woods and Irons going straight... cant be me must be the equipment (lol) 

But when I tried the Callaway XR irons i found i liked the feel and immediate feedback the clubs gave me to help improve..... did it.. yes (lessons did more of course).

 

But I tried a lot of clubs during my fitting and it was funny I immediately like the feedback and feel of these and the numbers looked good.

 

Now need a drill to turn off my over analyzing while getting ready to swing.. 

quote from instructor i hear all the time.... "Tim get out of your head "

[Kor.A.Door]

Getting out of your own head is a major battle sometimes.

[revkev]

Sorry I missed this thread and welcome.

 

I play golf with lots of different people because they want to play with their pastor. Like several other people I agree with much of what you wrote, in fact I could have written it. Golf should be fun so whatever it takes to make it fun without disturbing other players go ahead, knock yourself out. If golf has an issue it's that it looks and seems way too serious to the casual fan. Why in the world would an outsider want to play a game when the top pros can't seem to grasp the rules and guys in suits run up to the middle of play to tell them they are being assessed two strokes?

 

Golf appears elitist!

 

I think by now you recognize that the MGS staff isn't made up of all low handicappers and that they pick a balanced group of testers. There is usually a little bio section about the tester so that you can pick the whose game most closely resembles yours to follow.

 

Good luck and glad that you're here.

 

 

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