LPGA Tour Lexi Thompson Ruling!

[ole gray]

Didn't say anything about football! The point is, at every point the ball is stationary (which is the majority of the time) a ruling or decision can be made. In football, it can't.  I should add that in golf, a player has the opportunity to go back and correct their error if they make one. In football you can't. And golf tournaments are against multiple competitors rather than one opponent, so the outcome for all those competing is a little more complex.

The rules are golf are very clear and are not open to ambiguity, self-interpretation or flexible application.

If you made a rules infringement, whether or not you were immediately aware of it or not, you should be liable to the appropriate penalty. And that also applies after the round. Don't even get started about pros who sign for wrong cards....

 

Yea so allow an appropriate designated rules official to make the call during actual play. It's stupid to allow a spectator (who could possibly be betting on a particular player not to succeed) to call in and alter the outcome of the entire tournament.  You're arguing about a rules infraction and I get that point.  I'm arguing to keep random fans out of the picture which is a totally different aspect.

[McGary6]

This is such crap. She handled herself with class. Armchair officials should not have a say in an event.

 

 

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[jaskanski]

Yea so allow an appropriate designated rules official to make the call during actual play. It's stupid to allow a spectator (who could possibly be betting on a particular player not to succeed) to call in and alter the outcome of the entire tournament.  You're arguing about a rules infraction and I get that point.  I'm arguing to keep random fans out of the picture which is a totally different aspect.

 

Whilst most referees are on hand to make decisions - and I'm fairly sure they would do pretty much everything they could to make sure the player avoided any potential penalty - they are not allowed to issue advice on the course of play. They can indeed answer a direct question about the rules, which the player has every opportunity to do at any point, but just as the players themselves are unaware of any infringement it's still just as possible for the referee to miss it too.

So if anybody has evidence of an infringement occurring, then it must be treated with the same level of scrutiny as would any other rules breach. The fact that it happens to be someone watching on tv is irrelevant.

[golfnut3567]

2 separate issues here.

 

Lexi's mark and replacement of her ball. She did it, it was obvious and in the current rules should be a penalty.

 

Some asshat emailing in the rules infraction after the round and not being assessed until mid next round. That's just brutal.

 

I'm with the other guys. Once a rules official signs the card it's done. You catch something later than that and congrats you got away with one.

 

And please don't allow any call in or emails. The players and rules officials on the course are good enough we don't need outside assistance.

 

 

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100% agree. Spent several years as rules official. Absolutely it was an infraction of rules. Her partners didn't call it, spectators didn't call it, she didn't call on herself, and no one viewing audience did at that time. Does that make it right, NO.

 

But to come in the middle of next round should not be allowed. She gained no advantage from it, 99% it was not intentional.

 

If message arrived next wed, do you go back and redo the whole thing? Has to be a point where it is closed. No other sport does this, why here?

 

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[jaskanski]

100% agree. Spent several years as rules official. Absolutely it was an infraction of rules. Her partners didn't call it, spectators didn't call it, she didn't call on herself, and no one viewing audience did at that time. Does that make it right, NO.

 

But to come in the middle of next round should not be allowed. She gained no advantage from it, 99% it was not intentional.

 

If message arrived next wed, do you go back and redo the whole thing? Has to be a point where it is closed. No other sport does this, why here?

 

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Once you go down that route, then where do you stop?

I know I certainly wouldn't want to be the player who was remembered for winning a tournament where there was clear evidence that I made a breach and got away with it. How does that make the runner up feel?

[ole gray]

Whilst most referees are on hand to make decisions - and I'm fairly sure they would do pretty much everything they could to make sure the player avoided any potential penalty - they are not allowed to issue advice on the course of play. They can indeed answer a direct question about the rules, which the player has every opportunity to do at any point, but just as the players themselves are unaware of any infringement it's still just as possible for the referee to miss it too.

So if anybody has evidence of an infringement occurring, then it must be treated with the same level of scrutiny as would any other rules breach. The fact that it happens to be someone watching on tv is irrelevant.

 

 

Ok so in conclusion we have come to the reality that you are in favor of fans calling in, and I am opposed.  I think it would be interesting to see what the majority of people on here are in favor of.  Maybe a poll would be of interest?

[jaskanski]

Sure why not?

The whole point is that golf tournaments are won and lost on very small margins sometimes. 

Sometimes that is outrageous luck, sometimes that is painful misfortune, sometimes that is brilliant skill. sometimes it is a woeful error.

Whatever the outcome, it should never ever be at the expense of, or despite of the rules of golf.

We, as golfers, have a simple mantra to uphold: honesty, integrity, courtesy. We are actively encouraged to do the right thing at all times. This incident, although unfortunate from one perspective, had a positive outcome in that the rules were not compromised and the honesty, integrity and courtesy part of the game were upheld in one form or another by more that a few different individuals. Nobody really came out as a loser - certainly not Lexi who came out with her reputation as high as it ever could be. 

[golfnut3567]

Once you go down that route, then where do you stop?

I know I certainly wouldn't want to be the player who was remembered for winning a tournament where there was clear evidence that I made a breach and got away with it. How does that make the runner up feel?

Ok, then call rules violation on Jack Nicholas in 1986 Masters? There has to be a point where things stop and are over. s*** happens.

 

It was not intentional and gained zero advantage. Golf is only sport they allow this crap.

 

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[sixcat]

This isn't going away anytime soon.  The camera used to penalize Lexi wasn't in a still position.

 

 

[downlowkey]

Sure why not?

The whole point is that golf tournaments are won and lost on very small margins sometimes.

Sometimes that is outrageous luck, sometimes that is painful misfortune, sometimes that is brilliant skill. sometimes it is a woeful error.

Whatever the outcome, it should never ever be at the expense of, or despite of the rules of golf.

We, as golfers, have a simple mantra to uphold: honesty, integrity, courtesy. We are actively encouraged to do the right thing at all times. This incident, although unfortunate from one perspective, had a positive outcome in that the rules were not compromised and the honesty, integrity and courtesy part of the game were upheld in one form or another by more that a few different individuals. Nobody really came out as a loser - certainly not Lexi who came out with her reputation as high as it ever could be.

I remain hopeful there will be one loser here. Namely the ludicrous endless PR trumpeting that suggests fairness (via extraordinary review) is ubiquitous in professional sport. Any such suggestion is nothing more than an unnatural house of cards intentionally held together with nearly translucent scotch tape. Press = $$$ and the folks with a seat at the table are absolutely loving the discussion; because so far this day late debate is certainly not shorting them any dollars or lasting credibility.

[chisag]

Everyone is correct on a lot of things:

 

The late penalty was BS

Calls in shouldn't be allowed

The handling by the USGA/LPGA was horrendous 

 

But the one thing that is beyond true and needs to be addressed:

 

You damn well know when you put a marker almost to the side of the ball and then move your ball an inch over to replace it on that spot. She knew 100% what she was doing, I have no doubt about that.

 

 

... This is the most sanctimonious post I have read on any forum. I am not looking to get into an argument as this is your opinion and all opinions are valid, but calling her a liar and a cheater is just taking things too far. An inch? Were you there? Did you run the camera? As someone whose life is based on camera movement, location and a myriad of other factors there is no way to know what was going on with that lens. Looked like 1/2" to me and it was from the side so she had little reference to the hole. Brian cramp under the pressure of leading a Major? Sure. A just penalty? Yes. But obviously cheating is far from "no doubt". VERY far. 

[Kor.A.Door]

Blah, blah blah. The rules of golf state... blah blah blah. the way this was handled was wrong, and needs to be fixed.

[Jmikecpa]

I still come back to the penalty for marking the ball is what it is, but a day later another 2 strokes for signing and incorrect card is real BS to me.  This would have been even more of a disaster if the DQ rule was in effect and she was told on 12 that she was DQ'd for signing and incorrect card.  Happened to Michelle Wie a few years ago after someone watching video called in and said she took an incorrect drop after she completed her round and signed her card. 

[Kenny B]

This isn't going away anytime soon.  The camera used to penalize Lexi wasn't in a still position.

 

 

The camera should not have been zoomed in that close.  If the infraction is not be seen by competitors, officials on site, or the gallery and reported immediately, the cameras should not provide the doofus at home with a closeup view to see it either.  All of this has happened in the last few years with camera technology improvements.  For 200 years it would have only been called a penalty if the player or those watching locally observed it; only in the last 10 years could it be observed.  Don't allow broadcast of shots with closeups, and the call-ins and emails will stop.

[Shankster]

http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/11/19/usga-decision-affects-viewer-call-ins.html

 

 

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[JohnSmalls]

I am with the common and dissenting opinion that a spectator has no right to call a penalty in from TV coverage. Being a golf rookie, can someone please briefly explain what rule she broke?

 

 

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[Jmikecpa]

I am with the common and dissenting opinion that a spectator has no right to call a penalty in from TV coverage. Being a golf rookie, can someone please briefly explain what rule she broke?

 

 

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She played a stroke from the incorrect position. Don't know the rule number but that is in layman's terms what she did wrong.

 

 

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[Zeasy]

TIL: the LPGA was playing a major this weekend. On a serious note, what was going on?!? If you watch how she marked it and replaced it, there was something extremely odd about the motion. I wonder if there was a spike mark between her and the hole.

 

Good weekend for the LPGA. Viewership was way up on Sunday and probably more people talking about her and the LPGA in the last two days than the last two months.

[The Dansome]

TIL: the LPGA was playing a major this weekend. On a serious note, what was going on?!? If you watch how she marked it and replaced it, there was something extremely odd about the motion. I wonder if there was a spike mark between her and the hole.

 

Good weekend for the LPGA. Viewership was way up on Sunday and probably more people talking about her and the LPGA in the last two days than the last two months.

Straight up strange and fishy. I'm sure you're right that there was a spike mark or something and she moved her ball over to avoid it. I have no doubt there was full intent to dodge the rules.

 

On the flip side the tour sure did generate some buzz for itself.

[The Dansome]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSbNoZ5helC/

 

- She walks up and is about to tap in and sees something she doesn't like

- places marker and it's 100% clear you CANNOT see the marker it is hidden by ball

- picks ball up and moves closer to herself and replaces

- marker is now 100% in clear view

 

She blatantly moves that ball, most likely to avoid something in her line.

 

*Note the hole on right side of screen, it never moves. Camera angle remains​ the same.

[McaseyM]

Love this....courtesy of DivotDiggersGolf.

I can understand the 2 stroke penalty, but the 4 strokes was ridiculous.

 

 

 

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[The Dansome]

https://twitter.com/DrBobParsons/status/849073886180368384

 

Even Bob Parsons is stirring it up

[coachdoc]

IF they are going to allow " outside" officials ( and my opinion is not a hope in hell should it be happening) the very least is and decisions MUST be made prior to the commencement of the next round following any reported infraction.

In NO WAY SHOULD PENALTIES BE ASSESSED OR DELIVERED ( on an after the fact decision in the middle of a final round)

This was totally in appropriate and disrupted ALL the players and yes it took away a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP from a class act competitor whose unintended mistake had nothing to do with the short putt she made as it would have been made irregardless.

 

 

 

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[mnfats95]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSbNoZ5helC/

 

- She walks up and is about to tap in and sees something she doesn't like

- places marker and it's 100% clear you CANNOT see the marker it is hidden by ball

- picks ball up and moves closer to herself and replaces

- marker is now 100% in clear view

 

She blatantly moves that ball, most likely to avoid something in her line.

 

*Note the hole on right side of screen, it never moves. Camera angle remains​ the same.

 

If this is a normal play for her I'm sure it will come out. There has to be 100's of hours of footage of her out there to go through.

 

Haters have nothing but time.

 

Only she knows the truth!

[coachdoc]

It wasnt intentional..where she places the ball and that you can now see the marker doesnt necessarily mean the ball is closer just on a different line to the hole. It was a violation but the fact it was brought to her attention when it was ( on the back nine of the final round) is the issue. Along with the fact golf and golfers should police their game and NOT OUTSIDE VIEWERS!!

IT IS THE ONLY SPORT WHERE TELEVISION VIEWERS ARE ALLOWED TO BECOME OFFICIALS..AND ITS WRONG!

 

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[racerdoug76]

No more arm chair officials. Don't answer their calls or read their emails, tweets, etc until after the tournament. No more changing a scorecard after it is signed. The monday quarterbacking and stupid rules are a real black eye for golf. If you're gonna go like this, almost no ball is EVER PLACED back in the exact same spot. Guessing every tour pro has done this inadvertently at some point or another... as long as they are not placing it for an advantage please just let them play....

 

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[lou mcconaughey]

So I'm wondering does anyone ever put their ball down in the EXACT spot. I doubt she was off more than a fraction of and inch. It was unintentional. Golf is a game of honor

 

 

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[4Left]

It puts the officials in an awkward spot. Once it is brought to their attention, they need to do something about it. I agree with the two stroke penalty for incorrectly replacing the ball but the additional two strokes for marking the wrong score is brutal. They need to change this. Why is this the only sport where this happens? And what number do you call? 1-800-GOLFRAT? If the on course officials don't catch it, it's done. Move on. In other sports the officials can't even use video unless there is a coach's challenge of some sort.

 

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[downlowkey]

I've viewed the infamous clip about 50 times trying to get a feel for Lexi's mannerisms. My conclusion, she noticed something odd in the final movement of the ball on her previous shot. Most likely the ball came to rest in a slight depression (i.e. an old imperfectly repaired pitch mark). Rather than repair the spot under her ball (totally legal if deemed an old pitch mark) she slightly alters the position and then takes a moment to ensure the ball is at rest (not rolling sideways into the depression) before standing up and brushing it into the hole.

 

Under the circumstances, for Lexi, the best thing that could have happened was for her ball to roll back into the low spot, she then takes the time to make a legal repair and wins by 5 shots. But I believe she was going to make that putt either way and was merely trying to finish out in an expedient fashion.

 

In no way do I believe this hypothetical scenario is a knock against Lexi's honor, rather every pro is well aware how quickly things can go wrong any time you're trying to putt out of a depression and as a group effectively employ "professional courtesy" in those situations. Was it blatant? No. Was it an advantage? Only if she was trying to avoid something other than a pitch mark. Did she play a professional courtesy card? Probably. Should she have taken the time to proceed under the official rules? Right now Lexi would say "absolutely" but this point could easily belong in the pace of play debate. Did the schmuck who brought this to the attention of the officials have money riding against Lexi? Probably. Do I think there should be a private investigation into the masked individual's motivations? Absolutely. This is just my 2 cents; form what opinions you may.


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[jaskanski]

To my mind, Lexi made an error of judgement or just plain had a brain freeze. Either way, she was called out and subsequently had her score revised. It could have been a DQ if she was really unlucky and it was proven that a deliberate breach was made.

I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. But that doesn't mean her actions should go without some form of scrutiny. It could have been from her playing partner or the referee. Instead, it came from a tv viewer. I fail to see the difference in whoever sees it and calls it out.

From a professional perspective, knowing full well what was at stake, knowing the eyes of the world were watching her every move, it seems pretty naive for anyone to think that they are above the rules of golf at any point in a match - regardless if they feel they have done nothing wrong.

It's all very well playing the holier than thou card, but the rules of golf exist so that average guys like us can also enjoy the same level playing field even for fun on a weekend four ball. Would it make any difference to us if someone failed to replace their ball correctly in a friendly game? Probably not, but we have the luxury to make that call. Professionals with the money, title and sponsors at stake have something rather more substantial to adhere to when they play by the same basic rules as you and I. And because of that, their wits must be as sharp as their pencil.