Newbie/High Cap - Start with blades or SGI/GI?

[hckymeyer]

Alright, I'm opening up this can of worms so let's discuss.

 

You have a person who's either relatively new to golf and/or a higher handicap player.  They are in the market for new clubs, what do you direct them towards?

 

There seems to be 2 schools of thought on this one.  

 

1st is the blade/MB theory.  It basically goes to start the person with blades and they will figure out how to hit the sweet spot sooner as there isn't as much room for error.  Thought is that in the long run that person will be a better ball striker.

 

2nd is to put them in to a very forgiving GI or SGI iron that will help them with poorer ball striking.  

 

Here's my personal opinion and it's in 2 parts.  1st I think most (all?) of the people out there could benefit from added forgiveness.  We don't use persimmon clubs and hickory shafts any more for a reason.  Technology advances and if you aren't taking advantage of what's available you're just handicapping yourself.  My caveat to this is the 2nd part, play what makes you happy.  If you get enjoyment from playing blades then by all means do so.  I'd guess most people starting out will get more enjoyment from watching the ball fly down the fairway and on to the green than from looking down at a sexy blade or MB though.

 

So let's discuss, which camp are you in?  

[ole gray]

This is my take on it and I'm an advocate for "playing" golf these days. If you're young and looking to become a tournament player and you have good athletic skills, players clubs could work for you.  Especially if you grow up with a teacher showing you the ropes at your local country club. Now if you're starting golf later in life or maybe even after retiring you better hop on the GI irons. Let's face the fact that golf will beat ya like a drum if you can't bend over and tie your shoe without busting your arse. I'd say at least 75 percent of those starting this game should play game improvement irons. 

[PlaidJacket]

Interesting subject for sure. And.... I just had this conversation last week with a guy in my office. This young man wants to play a little more golf. He's played some but he's a 95-100 shooter he says. He also said he will not be playing every week or practicing much. What he wants is a more modern set of sticks that are easier to hit. His bag is mixed with a jumble of hand-me-downs and other assorted clubs. Older stuff mostly. So he axed me what I think....

 

My first suggestion was for him to consider a slightly used set of irons. I even went by a local shop and scoped out a couple of sets of GI irons in the $200-$250 range. I also looked at a few used drivers. 1-2 year old. $175-$200. I wouldn't suggest to his fellow any blade irons. He's not interested in one day becoming a great ball striker. Blades would only frustrate him.

 

My friend has heard of club fitting and asked me about it. My suggestion again was consider a used set but; if he wanted to go new and spend more then get a basic "retail" fitting and he'd have a nice set to get out and have some fun with. Same for a driver. I've offered to go with him so as to not be taken advantage of by a salesman. However, in the end the decision is his to make.

 

We all have to remember.... a lot of Pros play GI irons except perhaps their wedges. They're not all out there hitting blades. Heck I'd even wager than many of them have never played a true blade iron.

[JAGolfore]

I feel most, should start with GI. These will help you learn and understand the game. Your wedges will be important and should be helpful as to helping you understand when you can move onto MB or blades. Once you can consistently hit the sweet spot then you can start to tinker. But that's my opinion.

 

 

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[TheWahoo]

I'm smart enough to know that I ain't smart enough to know.    So my advice has always been go see a recognized competent club fitter for help.  But in lieu of that, get whatever you think will make the game more enjoyable for you consistent with the goals that you have established.  

 

But when I play with a bud using blades, we ain't making no wagers because he most likely will have no trouble kicking my butt.  

[JohnSmalls]

I am one of the resident newbie/high handicappers--played a couple of summers of golf 12-13 years ago, and averaged maybe 1 round a year there after until this year. The golf bug bit and I have jumped in headfirst.

The iron dilemma has been one that has plagued me on which direction to go. I am playing an old Snake Eyes half set and have needed an upgrade desperately, though, I am beginning to hit them better than I ever have. I was leaning on the Ping wagon, but patience ran thin as did the high Toyota like resell value of used Ping irons.

Nike going out of business left me with a few interesting options (Vapor Pro Combo or Vapor Speed); as has a great offer on Cobra Fly-Z irons (#2 in 2015 GI most wanted). I have been leaning towards the Pro Combo option because the most closely resemble the size of my current sticks, as well as not having the "crutch" of forgiveness offered by the Vapor Speed and Cobra irons. I think that learning on a less forgiving set would be more beneficial in the long run. However, a couple of recent subpar ball striking days is pushing me towards the game improvement aisle. 

 

The spring has been a blessing and I have been able to play 9-27 holes/week and I generally get a little bit of time in to send 100 or more practice balls down range during the week (great stress relief).  What do y'all think, GI or pro combo?

[Golfspy_CG2]

Good topic

 

I say GI, but not necessarily  SGI.  I think you need to get all the help you can in the beginning while still playing a club you won't grow to hate looking at in 6 months.   Many of the GI lines, AP1, TMAG, M2, Cobra F7, Ping,Callaway XR are so easy to hit, you don't get much easier than that.  

 

I've never bought into the thought of blades will make you concentrate more.  If you concentrate on that good of swing with GI, you'll get just as good, if not better result, but when you miss and we all know you're going to miss a lot as a beginner, you can still play your ball and not get discouraged.   

 

That's my thoughts anyway!

[PlaidJacket]

Smalls... In my humble opinion and now that you are bit again by the golf bug, playing more and practicing I'd make two suggestions. Pick your order....

Get a professional fitting and let that help guide you toward a club selection.

Find an instructor you like and can work with and start some lessons.

 

Hope I'm not jacking Meyers topic.

[JohnSmalls]

Didn't realize until I reread what I posted, hope I didn't go off on a rabbit trail Meyer.  I am living in the can of worms and looking forward to everybody's viewpoint.   

[null]

You want to get better at finding the center of the face? Get lessons.

 

Taking an inconsistent swing and pounding balls with a bladed iron isn't going to make you a better ball striker.

 

And does this logic apply to other clubs? If so, why isn't everyone gaming Wilson Staff 8802 putters or those putters you find at your local mini golf place.

 

 

Meyer nailed it when he said play what makes you happy. That's all I ever tell people. But don't pretend that clubs that are out of your league are going to "make you better" because they force you to "concentrate more"

[bullldog]

Ok here's my thoughts.. G.I. irons & dont bother getting fit! Seriously & IMO neither fitting or blades are going to help you till lessons or alot of proper practice. Also blades & fitting are going to cost you more and I truly believe the money would be better spent on lessons.

[butters]

Honestly all depends on the player.

 

Are they a more of a natural player or do they need as much help as they can.

 

I'd say but some cheap yet decent used clubs and go hit some balls. If you want to get better then find the path you need to take. Some people do lessons while others can teach themselves.

 

Personally I've never taken a lesson and just work with what I got.

 

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[bullldog]

 

 

Smalls, you said your playing older & not "premium clubs correct? My 1st question is & this comes from playing with a hi-cap sat. What is the shape of your grips. I find quite a few people dont pay attention to em, as far as being worn out. New grips can make an ol set feel new.

Also new & shinny can help confidence in the short term but money can be saved by a good older GI set. I posted earlier about forgoing a fitting BUT not completely. Flex & length can be helpful plus lie can always be adjusted later.

As I mentioned @ the start, the guy had a ol set of ping eye 2 copies, worn grips bad, but I took a nice, smooth & good swing with his 7i & it launched just fine. LOL think it was my best shot all day. Hehehe

[djahubes]

I grabbed an old set of lynx blades that my dad had at 14 years old. I believe they forced me to strike the ball as I learned. Would shy away from SGI for sure

 

 

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[Shankster]

Thanks. I think everyone knows where I stand here...

 

My opinion here is why start out with GI irons if you can CONSISTENTLY find the middle or near middle with a club that may perform better. If you don't need help, why get it? I started out with some Wilson Blades and it forced me to groove my swing, I couldn't afford lessons so i spent hours on the course figuring them out. Switched to GI irons and saw a decrease in MY overall iron play. Switched back to a Players CB years later and had much better results. Now I am playing CB's but looking to get blades back in the bag after I hit those new cobras.

 

So IF an beginner or anyone for that matter has a swing for blades or players cb's there is no need to "improve" if the mechanics are correct.

 

Now if you are dead set on said GI irons go ahead and get them.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it is the moral of my story.

 

Whatever suits your eye. I think putting a stigma on blades/players CB's of for the best players is wrong.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are some golfers who need all the help they can get and that's fine. Enjoy your sport, but don't think you aren't good enough for something if you haven't tried them yet.

 

Play what works for you.

 

- Alan

 

 

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[jaskanski]

Personally, I use blades but I wouldn't necessarily uphold the "tough love" theory of forcing yourself to hit a better ball. 

Proficient ball striking comes from many hours of practice and the correct technique - it seldom comes as the result of finding a solution to a problem.

What the solution really could be is rather more straightforward. You are basically looking at finding the centre of the club face on a regular basis. How this is achieved has little or no bearing on the make up of the club head. The statistics show that you are more likely to find the centre of the club face with a set that have been fitted to your swing and stature. Pure and simple.

You will instantly see better shots with any iron type if you hit it squarely in the middle - that is pretty obvious. What isn't quite so obvious are the margins of error from the player and their perception of a well struck shot. This is where a GI or SGI iron scores better overall for the higher index player. It simply allows for the statistical higher chance of hitting a slightly off-centre shot and the result the ball flight provides.

Your low hit will travel further. Your toe hit will travel straighter. Not game changing by any means, but enough to make the difference in potential scoring better.

Where it tends to run into problems for good players and pros is the disparity in total distance from a small section of the club face. If a slight miss towards the toe goes 150 yards, then one plumb in the centre could go 160 yards - not good if specific distance is your goal. With a blade, the disparity is much less - the distance from a slight miss to a centre shot might be something like 5 yards - much more acceptable.

For a higher index player though, the chances of a slight miss are higher - and for a big miss maybe higher still. This is where the distance disparity is much less apparent and therefore much more playable for an amateur.

It's got nothing to do with forcing yourself to hit better shots - it's all about getting the best potential from any shot - and that's what GI and SGI irons are intended to do. Not your best shot, but the average of your worst shots.

The blade is the opposite - it works better for the average of your best shots, which for a better player works out as a better overall scoring solution.

So I would ask anyone to get fitted first and foremost - that increases your scoring chances more than anything else. Then you need to take a look at your strong and weak parts of your game and find a solution that makes the most sense for scoring. No surprises here that hybrids and SGI clubs figure highly for longer clubs and blade-like slimmer soled irons work better for shorter clubs for a wide spectrum of handicaps. 

The whole point is fitting the clubs to your game - rather than fitting your game to your clubs. Which asking a high handicapper to use blades would suggest.

[null]

No doubt that if one is routinely finding the center of the face then play whatever you want.

 

I don't think the vast majority of amateurs are finding the center of the face nearly as much as they think.

 

And I doubt the average weekend golfer has 1) the time and 2) the athletic ability to mash hundreds of balls and self correct properly.

 

Also gi irons are more than just forgiveness. Most weekend golfers, especially ones with slower swing speeds, need all the help they can get when it comes to launching the ball and getting ideal peak height that allows maximum carry. The lower cg of gi irons gives those players the help they often desperately need

 

I'd love to to see about my golf spy labs study on average striking distance away from the center of the face of a 7 iron as it relates to handicap.

 

And does anyone know the breakdown of blades/MB vs mc/cb irons in play on tour? You have guys like Jordan Spieth on tour gaming the ap2s. I believe top instructor Michael Breed uses ap2s as well.I I believe the winner of the heritage was gaming Callaway Apex Pros. I bet the split is at least 50/50, with possibly even a slight majority of touring pros using something with at least a little cavity (ap2s, apex pros, srixon 7 series, Bridgestone CBs, etc)

[null]

Personally, I use blades but I wouldn't necessarily uphold the "tough love" theory of forcing yourself to hit a better ball.

Proficient ball striking comes from many hours of practice and the correct technique - it seldom comes as the result of finding a solution to a problem.

What the solution really could be is rather more straightforward. You are basically looking at finding the centre of the club face on a regular basis. How this is achieved has little or no bearing on the make up of the club head. The statistics show that you are more likely to find the centre of the club face with a set that have been fitted to your swing and stature. Pure and simple.

You will instantly see better shots with any iron type if you hit it squarely in the middle - that is pretty obvious. What isn't quite so obvious are the margins of error from the player and their perception of a well struck shot. This is where a GI or SGI iron scores better overall for the higher index player. It simply allows for the statistical higher chance of hitting a slightly off-centre shot and the result the ball flight provides.

Your low hit will travel further. Your toe hit will travel straighter. Not game changing by any means, but enough to make the difference in potential scoring better.

Where it tends to run into problems for good players and pros is the disparity in total distance from a small section of the club face. If a slight miss towards the toe goes 150 yards, then one plumb in the centre could go 160 yards - not good if specific distance is your goal. With a blade, the disparity is much less - the distance from a slight miss to a centre shot might be something like 5 yards - much more acceptable.

For a higher index player though, the chances of a slight miss are higher - and for a big miss maybe higher still. This is where the distance disparity is much less apparent and therefore much more playable for an amateur.

It's got nothing to do with forcing yourself to hit better shots - it's all about getting the best potential from any shot - and that's what GI and SGI irons are intended to do. Not your best shot, but the average of your worst shots.

The blade is the opposite - it works better for the average of your best shots, which for a better player works out as a better overall scoring solution.

So I would ask anyone to get fitted first and foremost - that increases your scoring chances more than anything else. Then you need to take a look at your strong and weak parts of your game and find a solution that makes the most sense for scoring. No surprises here that hybrids and SGI clubs figure highly for longer clubs and blade-like slimmer soled irons work better for shorter clubs for a wide spectrum of handicaps.

The whole point is fitting the clubs to your game - rather than fitting your game to your clubs. Which asking a high handicapper to use blades would suggest.

Well stated. They only thing I would argue is gi and sgi irons are often more forgiving on mishits, meaning that players will see less of a drop in ball speed away from the center of the face than they would from a similar strike with a blade or MB

[Shankster]

Are AP2's GI irons?

 

 

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[null]

Are AP2's GI irons?

 

 

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They all have cavities, and the long irons have tungsten inserts in the heel and toe

 

They are not blades/muscle backs

[JohnSmalls]

Smalls, you said your playing older & not "premium clubs correct? My 1st question is & this comes from playing with a hi-cap sat. What is the shape of your grips. I find quite a few people dont pay attention to em, as far as being worn out. New grips can make an ol set feel new.

Also new & shinny can help confidence in the short term but money can be saved by a good older GI set. I posted earlier about forgoing a fitting BUT not completely. Flex & length can be helpful plus lie can always be adjusted later.

As I mentioned @ the start, the guy had a ol set of ping eye 2 copies, worn grips bad, but I took a nice, smooth & good swing with his 7i & it launched just fine. LOL think it was my best shot all day. Hehehe

You are correct.  I got the clubs when I was around 13 or 14 with either senior or women's shafts per the recommendation of the local pro.  He had them cut down to fit me at the time.  I am in my mid-20's now and the golfsmith grips are amazingly still in great shape---no dry rot & rubber is still "tacky" while showing well below average wear. I would rate them as a 8.5 if that is possible. 

 

Sounds like some eye 2's are in your future!   

[Shankster]

A Players CB no doubt. I was a bit tired when I posted that stuff this morning, and forgot to put "Players CB's" on there. My bad.

 

I'll do the research to see what the pro's are using. Might take a while.

 

1. What are we considering GI?

 

 

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[Shankster]

The cobra MB I'm looking at have tungsten in the toe.

 

 

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[null]

The cobra MB I'm looking at have tungsten in the toe.

 

 

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Yes MBs can have tungsten, but they are still MBs.

 

They don't have cavities.

[null]

A Players CB no doubt. I was a bit tired when I posted that stuff this morning, and forgot to put "Players CB's" on there. My bad.

 

I'll do the research to see what the pro's are using. Might take a while.

 

1. What are we considering GI?

 

 

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The lines are blurred as it what is a true gi iron.

 

Look at the Srixon 5 series irons.

 

Little to no offset

Smallish top line

 

Yet they are considered at game improvement iron.

 

Gone are the days of 3 distinct iron categories (players, gi, sgi). This is why I consistently say get fit/play what makes you happy. If someone thinks playing a blade is enjoyable, regardless of their skill level, then more power to them.

 

And as one poster said above, a proper fitting doesn't result in the club that gave you the best of the best shots, it should result in the club the gave you the best average dispersion (distance and left to right)

[Shankster]

You are missing my point. I don't consider the AP2 a GI. Very much a "better player" categorized club yet pro's do use them. I'm talking the Cobra King Oversized and along those lines.

 

 

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[downlowkey]

In my opinion, the best way to answer this question begins by inquiring about the particular goals of each individual.

 

Why are you taking up golf? / Why are you considering new equipment?

 

Potential answers:

 

A - I want to win the Masters one day

 

B - I want to be competitive in the club championship

 

C - I'm tired of embarrassing myself on the golf course

 

Once their goals are clear, you can begin to form an equipment plan. Without knowing their true motivations, providing sound advice for an individual is unlikely. My first instructor sat me down to talk goals after our very first lesson together and it made a profound impact.

[null]

You are missing my point. I don't consider the AP2 a GI. Very much a "better player" categorized club yet pro's do use them. I'm talking the Cobra King Oversized and along those lines.

 

 

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We gave my father in law a set of the cobra OS irons for his birthday, as well as some hybrids. They replaced his taylormade 320 irons. He's never hit better shots or enjoyed golf more in his life. Those small TaylorMade 320 irons weren't helping him get better.

[Shankster]

All I was trying to say earlier is: don't put yourself in a GI Category if you don't need to. I think if I would have started with GI irons I would have quit, because I was inconsistent with them. I started with blades and I had to work to make them work, so I enjoyed the challenge as a 12 year old kid, I felt like Jack or Arnie out on the course.

 

Now times have changed there are a lot more options out there, and fitting available. And it is all about distance and forgiveness, which I think everyone enjoys.

 

The Pro at the course I worked at handed me a 1 iron and told me to come back when I could hit it. That was my lesson.

 

 

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[Shankster]

Again. Just my opinion Sir. That's all I'm good for.

 

 

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