Newbie/High Cap - Start with blades or SGI/GI?

[Jmikecpa]

This argument isnt even close for me. Play GI irons. Put someone in a set of Ping G. If for some reason you think you have better ball striking than that play nothing more than a Steelhead Pro iron. Just because it has pro in the name doesnt make it a pro club. That is a GI club  

For someone learning or for someone that has a low cap?  Put me in a set of Ping G irons and I would struggle mightily for a bit until I got used to them. 

[Sschaffer24]

Another important consideration for people is just what the ACTUAL differences will be between a set of blades and a set of GI irons. We all talk forgiveness and striking, but let's not forget what that means. If you hit a MB, CB, GI, SGI out of the toe with the same swing characteristics the ball is going to have a very similar flight for all of those. It will have similar curvature and so on.

 

The biggest difference someone will experience between these different models is the penalty they will experience on dispersion. Let's be clear. We all tend to think dispersion equals how close to the target line in relation to the ball finishing left or right of the target. This conversation isn't really about that. We all tend to assume that will happen (that the SGI irons will let a beginner stripe every shot down the middle but the blade will make them slice it into the woods) when in reality the ball is going to largely react the same off the face. Remember: the ball doesn't know anything about where the forces that are being applied to it are coming from. It doesn't matter what you use, how you look, your age, gender or race, it only knows physics. The type of clubs you use to apply those forces aren't going to change the laws of them.

 

What we ARE debating is the value in dispersion short and long. I think a lot of golfers tend to forget about this. They think to themselves "oh I hit my 8 iron 150." and expect their 8 iron to travel 150 every time they swing the club. If they shank it, they understand the ball didn't travel that distance, but what if the catch the ball out of the heel, the ball speed drops, the flight looks great and they finish 10 yards short? Most guys aren't thinking to themselves "well, I mishit that so it actually traveled 140 instead of the 150 like I expect." Most guys are still convinced they hit it 150 and they just got unlucky/had the wrong yardage, etc.

 

The differences between these clubs boil down to the differences in their ability to maintain ball speed all over the face. Something like an SGI in theory should perform better in overall CONSISTENT distances with a strike not located in the center of the face than a muscle back ever could. The idea that a new player (or anyone?) wouldn't benefit from that kind of consistency is hard to wrap my head around.

 

Now the counter argument of spin models and these clubs abilities to hold a green makes this an even more interesting discussion, as that will swing the favor back towards blades... but that's a different topic.

[null]

Yup, I always have to help my buddies buy clubs and I have to keep reminding them that forgiveness does not mean less slicing, it means less yardage loss on off-center hits

[Kor.A.Door]

If it is someone truly new to the game, and just wants to play, I would emphatically suggest for them either GI, or SGI, angently ised set to get them started. After they improve, then they might could look into a players type of club. AP2, CF16, Mizuno JPX series. For staring out they will need a full OS cavity back. Again I am thinking of the newbie, not someone who took time off and is getting back into the game. Completely new to the game, they need to feel like they can actually hit the ball, and a players club or blade will not allow them to do that.

[Kor.A.Door]

This argument isnt even close for me. Play GI irons. Put someone in a set of Ping G. If for some reason you think you have better ball striking than that play nothing more than a Steelhead Pro iron. Just because it has pro in the name doesnt make it a pro club. That is a GI club

The steelhead pro is not really a GI club, the regular steelhead club is. The pro model is much smaller and has a much thinner top line, more along the lines of the AP2. Titleist calls theirs AP1, and AP2, Callaway gives theirs the "pro" name on them. The AP2 and the "pro" models to me are more of a players CB instead of GI. You get the forgiveness of the cavity back, but the look of a players iron. Mizuno does the same with their irons, gives them the "pro" stamp for the players club. I use the terms loosely,but that's how I see each manufacturers distinction between GI and Players CB.

[numberonecoog]

The steelhead pro is not really a GI club, the regular steelhead club is. The pro model is much smaller and has a much thinner top line, more along the lines of the AP2. Titleist calls theirs AP1, and AP2, Callaway gives theirs the "pro" name on them. The AP2 and the "pro" models to me are more of a players CB instead of GI. You get the forgiveness of the cavity back, but the look of a players iron. Mizuno does the same with their irons, gives them the "pro" stamp for the players club. I use the terms loosely,but that's how I see each manufacturers distinction between GI and Players CB.

 

Id have to disagree. The AP2 is much closer to the Apex irons. The Players CB of the Callaway line is the Apex and the APEX Pro.

The Steelhead pro is the GI and the regular Steelhead and Big Bertha are SGI. The AP2 is played by a lot of touring professionals. Due to the size of the Steelhead and offset they arent. 

[numberonecoog]

For someone learning or for someone that has a low cap?  Put me in a set of Ping G irons and I would struggle mightily for a bit until I got used to them. 

For a high cap. 

[Jmikecpa]

Id have to disagree. The AP2 is much closer to the Apex irons. The Players CB of the Callaway line is the Apex and the APEX Pro.

The Steelhead pro is the GI and the regular Steelhead and Big Bertha are SGI. The AP2 is played by a lot of touring professionals. Due to the size of the Steelhead and offset they arent.

I would say both the Apex Pro and the AP2 are plenty forgiving and also agree the looks are why a lot of better players bag them. The Apex Pros from a few years back are some of the sweetest feeling irons around. I played a set of them on and off since they came out.

 

 

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[Shankster]

I checked out the AP2's and the Ping iBlade today at the golf shop. They (AP2) are tiny, like smaller than the Taylormade PSI irons, and the Apex Pro yet offer game helping quality. They also had the M2's there, not a bad looking club at all, the stock config was a lot upright though.

 

But those Scotty Putters.... I'm hooked.

 

 

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[Jmikecpa]

I checked out the AP2's and the Ping iBlade today at the golf shop. They (AP2) are tiny, like smaller than the Taylormade PSI irons, and the Apex Pro yet offer game helping quality. They also had the M2's there, not a bad looking club at all, the stock config was a lot upright though.

 

But those Scotty Putters.... I'm hooked.

 

 

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Love the look of the AP2 and have yet to find a setup that works for me with them.  Had the 712 and 714 AP2s and between them had nine different shafts in them with no luck.

[Jmikecpa]

I checked out the AP2's and the Ping iBlade today at the golf shop. They (AP2) are tiny, like smaller than the Taylormade PSI irons, and the Apex Pro yet offer game helping quality. They also had the M2's there, not a bad looking club at all, the stock config was a lot upright though.

 

But those Scotty Putters.... I'm hooked.

 

 

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and I like a nice Scotty.......or a few dozen nice Scottys.

[Shankster]

Can't afford one. Let alone a few dozen. Maybe someday.

 

 

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[Brjpool]

I think it really depends on what you want out of the game. I know others have already mentioned that. If you are going to be a weekend warrior then go for the easiest to hit clubs as possible.

 

I think the same goes for just starting out but if your serious about getting better then know that it's just a start and with improvement you will be gettingb different more gamer clubs

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

Id have to disagree. The AP2 is much closer to the Apex irons. The Players CB of the Callaway line is the Apex and the APEX Pro.

The Steelhead pro is the GI and the regular Steelhead and Big Bertha are SGI. The AP2 is played by a lot of touring professionals. Due to the size of the Steelhead and offset they arent.

The Cally apex pro and the Cally XR pro are pretty much the same the same club, one is forged and the other is cast. I play the XR pro and have a friend that plays the Apex pro, they look the same. The AP2 is the same size.

 

We can disagree about this that's fine. I would steer a newbie away from any of these types of clubs, I brand new golfer should start with the most forgiving they can find, at least that's my opinion anyway .

[Jiro]

Great discussion from everyone. I can see both sides and my answer is that it probably depends on what that persons goals are. I am more of the mindset of play what makes you happy and excited to get out there and play and practice. What will be most fun for that person?

I can see some guys that would have more fun with blades because they are gung ho about getting into the game and putting in the practice time and would enjoy challenging themselves to become better ball strikers.

Other beginners will have more fun with GIs because they just want to get out there and have some early success which will get them more into it. Some of the SGIs are set up to eek out a little more distance with exotic metals and spring board designs and for some that is what is fun for them.

I started out with the GI route and that got me into the game. I moved on to slightly smaller CBs that had more feedback but still largish heads. In theory, practice with feedback would help with my ball striking. I score the same with either of them--just need to find that time for practice--tough with two small kids

 

 

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[Shankster]

25%-35% is all I could find on the amount of pros using Blades and it's a bit old 2014 season. Couldn't find anything about "players CB's" or GI on tour, they are there I see pictures every week.

 

 

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[adawson]

Not sure either school of thought will agree on this one. As long as there different clubs there will be different opinions!

[ole gray]

I made a post early and should have backed it up with some info on the subject however Colin Montgomery did use the same irons I currently use.  Callaway Razr XF.   Note the XF actually stands for extra forgiveness so yea, touring pros do use the forgiving irons....

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/231385/colin-montgomeries-winning-witb/

[numberonecoog]

The Cally apex pro and the Cally XR pro are pretty much the same the same club, one is forged and the other is cast. I play the XR pro and have a friend that plays the Apex pro, they look the same. The AP2 is the same size.

 

We can disagree about this that's fine. I would steer a newbie away from any of these types of clubs, I brand new golfer should start with the most forgiving they can find, at least that's my opinion anyway .

I agree 100% They should play forgiving clubs. That was the point of my argument. I think some of the best GI clubs are the G series. I dont think a starting golfer can ever go wrong with the G series.

[dang3rtown]

I'll say this; the only reason I wouldn't put a newbie/high handicapper onto SG/SGI is if I thought they had the potential to permanently ingrain bad swing habits. 

I do not think that is the case, at least not with current club technology. With the biggest, fattest SGI head you can think of, you still need to swing the club with the same mechanics as you do with a tour issue blade. Therefore, give the poor guy some help! Make the game more accessible and if he outgrows the SGIs, trade em in and move up! (I know a great equipment review site he can check out!). However, if the day comes when a club is made that hits the ball perfect every time, no matter the swing, throw it in the dumpster, it'll keep you from ever playing the real game!

[gaussman1]

This is an interesting topic for a couple of reasons. What even is GI or MB anymore? I play Srixon 765s, which are clearly not muscle, but many would call them blades. I think of them as "player's CBs" but you could make the argument for either category. They definitely get tour play so does that make them MBs? Either way, it seems as if we can concede that CBs are played by the best players in the world so there is no reason for a newbie to be in something harder to hit than that. Should a new player get more help than that and go to super GI? My opinion is that depends on speed. If the club is moving fast then no. If the club is moving slowly (and that doesn't seem to be a condition which will change in the near future) then yes to max SGI. I guess I would say the same to any player, whether they are new to the game or not.

[Jmikecpa]

This is an interesting topic for a couple of reasons. What even is GI or MB anymore? I play Srixon 765s, which are clearly not muscle, but many would call them blades. I think of them as "player's CBs" but you could make the argument for either category. They definitely get tour play so does that make them MBs? Either way, it seems as if we can concede that CBs are played by the best players in the world so there is no reason for a newbie to be in something harder to hit than that. Should a new player get more help than that and go to super GI? My opinion is that depends on speed. If the club is moving fast then no. If the club is moving slowly (and that doesn't seem to be a condition which will change in the near future) then yes to max SGI. I guess I would say the same to any player, whether they are new to the game or not.

I would say they are player's CB irons but to add to this what would you consider Titleist TMBs?  They have no cavity, the look and appearance of a blade but are more forgiving than the AP2 according to Ralph Maltby's scale.  If you look at his rating the Titleist MBs they are about 100 points less on the scale, but still not nearly as poor a rating from a playability standpoint as the Hogan Ft. Worth 15s.

[gaussman1]

I would say they are player's CB irons but to add to this what would you consider Titleist TMBs? They have no cavity, the look and appearance of a blade but are more forgiving than the AP2 according to Ralph Maltby's scale. If you look at his rating the Titleist MBs they are about 100 points less on the scale, but still not nearly as poor a rating from a playability standpoint as the Hogan Ft. Worth 15s.

Agree about TMBs. There are so many clubs in that "players" category with GI features that nothing is really a blade anymore. Except the pure MBs and there's no reason for a beginner to try to handle those

[dang3rtown]

I would say they are player's CB irons but to add to this what would you consider Titleist TMBs?  They have no cavity, the look and appearance of a blade but are more forgiving than the AP2 according to Ralph Maltby's scale.  If you look at his rating the Titleist MBs they are about 100 points less on the scale, but still not nearly as poor a rating from a playability standpoint as the Hogan Ft. Worth 15s.

 

I have to say, as a person who plays the ft Worth 15s because they are by far, the easiest "blade" to hit well, I seriously wonder about the quality of Mr. Maltby's ratings scale.

[Shankster]

Anyone at a shop with a full line up on the shelf and access to a launch monitor and a beginner?

 

Like say:

 

1. Cobra MB

 

2. Cobra CB

 

3. Cobra Forged Tec

 

4. Cobra F7

 

5. Cobra King OS

 

Or another brand that covers that many types of SGI/GI/CB/MB...

 

And match the closest loft not the number on the bottom. Head to head.

 

 

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[Jmikecpa]

I have to say, as a person who plays the ft Worth 15s because they are by far, the easiest "blade" to hit well, I seriously wonder about the quality of Mr. Maltby's ratings scale.

I tend to agree with that.  Played the Ft. Worth's for two plus years and they were not as hard to hit as the ratings suggest.  Long irons were a bit tough, the Hi version are really easy to hit off the deck or tee.

[Shankster]

One more reason I've been thinking about why you would pick a Players club from the get go. If you look back 10-20 years the blade/player cb iron, the looks haven't really changed much, nor the tech. GI irons are all over the place, so when you are due for a new set would you want to put something familiar in the bag or some spaceship looking stuff? Just a thought.

 

 

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[MDGolfHacker]

It may just come down to looks preferences which is why manufacturers have blurred the lines between GI and players clubs. The figured that people want blade looking clubs but really need the help of a GI club. I know I fall in this category...

 

MDGolfHacker

[Rusty1885]

SGI or GI are better choice, not only they are easier to hit straighter shots but they are more durable as well. Not to mention most MB are only available in stiff flex steel shafts which harder for new swingers to get the feel of the club head.

 

Newbies don't need full set of clubs. Their 5i distance and 7i distance are pretty much the same.

 

They only need

5 wd

5 hybrid

8i, Pw, Sw and a putter

 

Use it til they break a hundred then start adding clubs from short to long as their game improved. I'm a 4 hdcp and only play with 11 clubs til recently I added the 5th wedge 64*(because one gotta goof around sometime:)) I have all of the distance covered from tee to green for my game.

 

They can buy as a single clubs from a used e-commerce site like global golf. SGI is highly recommended and why not pick up a 7i blade for honing in sweet spot.

 

I'd say if they want to improve their impact, add a DST compressor 8i for practice session would greatly speed up their ball striking ability.

[Treymcneil]

I think blades/mbs with instruction will be a great route for the right person. By right person I mean someone who is athletic and in shape. If they can only make a 60% turn and things aren't as loose as they used to be, go to the forgiveness side of things and let them have fun and play the game better that way. I grew up playing blades and it developed my swing and made me a better ball striker. The only time I didn't play blades was for one season competitively in school and I thought some ping zings would get me the forgiveness I needed to hopefully score better. I went to blades the next season because they didn't make that much of a difference and I found I couldn't work the ball as much. There's my 2 cents!

 

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