What is penalty or is there a penalty?

[vmibeef95]

Guys, I am new to this, but I wanted some feedback from some other people.  I am always playing in tournaments and watching rules violations.  When I bring it up to head pro, I usually get shot down and told no rules violation.

 

Recently, I played in a stroke play one low net two man team tournament.  Myself and my teammate were in second place, two shots behind.  There were two instances that happened during round that I did not know what to do.

 

First instance

My first shot of the day came to rest about an inch behind a drain grate in the fairway.  I asked for a free drop for relief from the grate because I felt my club would hit it during my swing and after contact of the ball.  Of course, I am hitting a wedge so a divot will be taken.  The team we were playing with would not agree that I should get relief.  I played two balls, one with relief and one without.   My club hit grate and actually made a mark on it.  I did not want to swing but the other team said I either swung or I was out of the hole.  After I hit the grate, the other team allowed me to use the second ball because it was proven to be in my swing plane.  By the way, was only a one shot difference.  What should I have done to not mess my club up??

 

Second instance

We get to the second hole and we have all teed off.  My partner and I hit second shots.  One of the players on the other team says his ball is behind a tree and wants to take an unplayable lie.  He starts to mark out two club lengths that placing him right on top of the cart path.  He then says he gets to drop again for relief from cart path.  I tried explaining to him that this was not his closest point of relief and could not be used.  He does not think I am right and take relief from the cart path.  All the time the closest point of relief is further into the woods.  He ends up being in the fairway because of all the drops.  I also explain to him that he can not change the cut that his ball was originally in.  All the time, he keeps doing what he wants.  Here is where it gets good.  When we identified balls on the first tee, he was hitting a titleist 7.  The ball he has moved now twice is a titleist 8.  As he is over the ball, another team from our flight comes over from the other fairway and says he is getting ready to hit his ball.  The guys from the other fairway are looking as the debacle goes on.  At this point, they find the Titleist 7 and come over and say something.  He places the Titleist 8 back in its original position and commences to hitting the original ball. He finishes hole with par and his partner finishes hole with double-bogey.  I told them we had to wait and get ruling from pro before I signed card.  They would not allow me take part in conversation with Pro.  Afterwards, it was deemed that there was no penalty and the team moved from being in second by one shot to winning our flight by one.  After the round, I asked the pro why no penalty was assessed.  He said he did not hit the ball so no penalty.  I asked why the player was not deemed out of the hole because he could not identify the ball he teed off with.  I was told the other team told the pro that the two balls were the same and I explained the difference between an 8 and a 7.  Anyone help me with this ruling??

 

I am really getting tired of this junk especially when entry fees are over 100 dollars and we have people like this winning money or credit in the pro shop or some big nice trophy.  I am also mad at the pro for not talking with us when there was something really fishy going on.  I also had to ask him about what to do about the grate.  He told me what I did was all I could do because if I did not play the first ball, then I would not have been able to card a score on that hole.

 

All seems messed up when all we have to do is be honest and play the game like gentlemen.

 

Any help??

[null]

#2 is a bit much today follow so can't give any advice there.

 

You should have received the relief in #1 as the grate was an immovable obstruction similar to a sprinkler head

 

"immovable obstruction, from which the player may take relief under Rule24-2b if it interferes with their stance or area of intended swing"

 

However once you did not take a drop and played the original ball, that ball is in play and you can't drop and hit another ball

[gaussman1]

First instance-i would not have hit the shot. You are not required to damage a club because they don't know the rule. You should be able to demonstrate impact with the obstruction in slow motion pretty effectively to prove your case. If not practical to call for a ruling then simply tell them you disagree, mark the location of your ball with several tees so it can be reviewed after the round, take your drop and go. Inform the pro shop as soon as possible so they can make a ruling.

If you are ever in an instance where you're playing two balls- you must declare which ball you intend to use for score on the hole before you strike either one. You don't get to pick and choose based on what turns out better.

2nd instance-a lot going on here. To take an unplayable lie with penalty you can move two club lengths in any direction no closer to the hole. If that puts you in a scenario where you gain further relief so be it. There is no rule against that- the "can't change the cut" rule is really a scramble thing instead of a Rules of Golf thing. Now once he starts dropping a ball that is not his it gets very dicey. Of course he is violating the spirit of the law but since the other team bailed him out by finding his original ball before he could actually cheat there is no penalty UNLESS more than 5 minutes had passed at which point his original ball is deemed lost whether someone finds it or not. He then would have had to go back to the tee and reload with penalty. If he had made a stroke at the new ball within 5 minutes that substituted ball becomes the ball in play and he gets a two shot penalty for playing from the wrong place.

I think an argument could be made that his effort to cheat was a serious breach and they should be disqualified but it's more likely that you're playing golf at the wrong place with the wrong people. For the pro not to want to hear from the entire group is not a good sign.

 

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[PlaidJacket]

In the first the first question I would have done the same thing and I think that was the correct procedure.

 

The second one is confusing not to mention the jerks you were playing with. Also the pro should not have had a private discussion with the other player without you being present. IMO. Poor judgment on the Pros part to say the least.

 

I'm going to refer you to barryrhodes.com. Go there and do a simple search for "nearest point of relief."

 

Two cents: I have given up playing tournaments*. There are too many people out there where winning a cheesy gift certificate in the pro shop or a cheap trophy is everything to them. Many times there is no oversight on handicaps as well.

 

* I'll probably play in our Club Championship (Senior flight) later this summer but it's only $60 and basically no payout. Just recognition. And that's just fine by me.

[cnosil]

Previous post Sounds like it has everything covered.

 

Take a rule book or have it in your phone next time. Always good to reference in those situations.

[Canucklehead]

I also don't really play tournaments for the simple reason I'd have to put up with people like that for 4-5 hrs

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

For scenario one, The rules of golf allow relief from that. I would not have swung with the risk of damaging my club or my wrists. At least they allowed you to play a second ball which by the rules of golf is not allowed since you played the first one.

the second scenario Has a lot going on, taking the unplayable is 2 club lengths, it does not have to be nearest point of relief, it cannot be closer to the hole, if that drop ends up where he would need relief from the cart path, then it becomes nearest point of relief, this scenario could actually put him back toward the tree, if that area is the nearest point. Since he did not strike a shot with the incorrect ball he did not get a penalty for that, if he played his original ball from its original spot then how can there be a penalty. The only way there could have been a penalty is if he played the incorrect ball, which then becomes a 2 stroke penalty. It sucks that this happened to you, but it sounds like the correct ruling was made in scenario 2.

[Shankster]

I'd send the bill for your new club to the other teams captain. And find a new group of guys to play with.

 

This is why I play solo mostly. I follow the rules when I have to. But if you follow them while out having fun it can be a bit much, especially if you don't know them off the top of your head.

 

Does anyone play by the rules 100% of the time?

 

I usually play 2-4 balls per hole, wouldn't my first shot with 2nd one technically make my first out of play?

 

 

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[Eseay32]

I'd send the bill for your new club to the other teams captain. And find a new group of guys to play with.

 

This is why I play solo mostly. I follow the rules when I have to. But if you follow them while out having fun it can be a bit much, especially if you don't know them off the top of your head.

 

Does anyone play by the rules 100% of the time?

 

I usually play 2-4 balls per hole, wouldn't my first shot with 2nd one technically make my first out of play?

 

 

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Playing a 1 man swat are ya? just kidding

 

 

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[vmibeef95]

Thanks everyone for making a comment.  All the comments make sense.  I have been surprised no one has made any comment about the fact that the guy could not correctly identify the ball he teed off with.  This was my biggest concern.  I understand no penalty for moving another players ball.  My problem is that the guy teed off on first tee with titleist 7.  The reason I know this is because we identified balls so we would not get them mixed up.  So when he announced it was a Titleist 8, I told him that he had told us he was using a Titleist 7 on the first tee. He had only hit the ball 6 times at this point.  So when the other player comes over and says that was his ball, his story changed.  So they find the Titleist 7 in better shape and not having to take an unplayable lie which comes with a penalty shot.  When the guy sees this and sees the better lie and better option, his entire story changes, and now he was hitting a Titleist 7 again.   There has to be some kind of penalty for not being able to identify the ball that was teed off with.  I mean one second he is playing with Titleist 8 and then a better option shows up.  So his story changes and his ball is now a Titleist 7.  What to do and what penalty for the change in balls and also the change in story???

[MDGolfHacker]

No penalty for those guys changing their story. Just a violation of the spirit of the game, sad to say. I'd make it known to the pro and I wouldn't play in that tournament again.

 

MDGolfHacker

[Shankster]

Playing a 1 man swat are ya? just kidding

 

 

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Haha. I'm usually the only person on the course. The only luxury about living in Winterfell.

 

 

- Alan

[Kenny B]

Clearly, the guy was worried that he would not find the ball and rushed to play the 8 when he found it instead of looking for his 7 and not finding it.  Unfortunately, as stated previously there is no penalty until he hits the wrong ball, which he didn't do.  Yes, it sounds like there was probably intent.  It's unfortunate that people are willing to play like that.  What would be curious would be if he had played the 8 ball, would the pro uphold his side of the story or yours?  It says a lot about the pro.

[PlaidJacket]

This kind of stuff is precisely why I've had enough of tournaments really. Granted 99% of the time I never had any issues or problems with anything. But just in the past 10 years I've seen a noticeable slide in player integrity. Sad. Tournaments have gotten too expensive IMO but if you can at least place 3rd you'll break even usually. And that's a good enough finish for many people. At any cost.

Quite frankly I wish tournaments didn't have a payout of any kind. Just a small trophy or medal. I'm dreaming I know. Tournaments are held to make a club or course money. The tournament is just the vehicle.

[DaveP043]

For the first instance, I would have taken relief and played.  Its up to you to make a judgement about whether the obstruction (grate) interferes with your stance or swing.  If they had a question, mark the original location and ask for a ruling when you get done.  Alternatively, you CAN play two balls and get a ruling later, but you have to announce your intention to do so, and indicate which you prefer to use prior to hitting either shot.  You can only play two balls like this in a stroke play situation, not in match play.

 

For the second situation, as others have said, if the guy didn't play a stroke with the wrong ball, there's no penalty.  Sure, he was willing and ready to play the wrong ball rather than take a lost ball penalty, but he didn't actually do it.  As for the drops, it sounds like he did that stuff correctly (assuming that had really been his ball).  Unplayable allows two club lengths (no closer to the hole).  Once that drop is made, its a completely new situation, so he could legitimately take a free drop from the cart path.  That drop MUST be within one clublength of the nearest point of complete relief.  FREE drops use the nearest point, unplayable lies give you two clublengths in any direction (as well as two other options).  Its certainly possible that the end result would put him in the fairway.  This isn't a case of "legal cheating", its using the rules (and knowledge of them) to obtain the best possible result.   If its done within the rules, its not cheating.  The rules don't always penalize, sometimes they can actually help you.  This is why its a good thing to learn and understand the basic rules, like OB, unplayable, hazards, relief from obstructions.  They're really not too complicated, and they'll cover almost all of the situations you find yourself in.