Pace of play....is "slower" that big of a deal?

[Golfspy_CG2]

... We will just have to agree to disagree on this. There have been plenty of times as a twosome we have teamed up with the twosome behind us, but other times we just did not want to join them for many of the reasons I listed earlier. And of course if you are keeping up with the group in front of you, as a twosome I would never expect to be let thru. Only if you have holes in front of you open. This is just being courteous. But even courteous is open to interpretation. The more courteous you are, the more you are aware of others around you and I would let 10 twosomes thru if I were playing with a slow group and had open holes in front of us. Yet I play behind groups that think it is some proclamation on their ability to let anyone thru. 

 

... I will add the worst for me is being paired up with a slow 3some that is unaware of the groups around them. I have asked to let groups behind us through only to be told "We had to look for a ball last hole and we will catch up" or some other e use when they never looked back once. It has been my experience that slow groups just don't care that they are slow or are so unaware they don't even know they are slow. 

I don't know if you were referring to my post about disagreeing, but just to be clear, if my group had open holes in front of us and the group behind is constantly waiting on us, then yes we are in fact too slow and I would definitely let them go through.   I was more referring to again like you and Jlukes said, being unaware creates a lot of problems.   Both in the slow group, or also say the twosome behind us, thinks we are slow but can't see the group ahead of us or possibly the group ahead of them that is causing the issue, sometimes they just think because they are a twosome and we are four, we are naturally holding things up.   I'm speaking in very very broad terms there, not something that is always the case.  

 

I think we're on the same page here.

 

edit: I just reread your above statement, sorry if I misinterpreted it!

[chisag]

... All good. I was agreeing to disagree with Kenny B about twosomes always pairing up with the twosome behind them. Another reason I just thought of is we have been on the first tee and asked the players behind us if they want to pair up and they say definitively NO. Not much things worse than being paired up with people that don't want to be paired up with you. 

... And as a + index player I get it is often intimidating for others to join us. I will never understand that as when I started playing I always loved being paired with better players if they were nice people. Of course some low index players can have a condescending attitude and I get that but I am an inveterate optimist and am very supportive of those I play with. I had one guy in LA tell me being a great guy to play with only made it worse for him because he couldn't hate me as much as he wanted!   

[chisag]

Agree with you both- and to add one more thing to help those who perhaps need to pick up the pace- don't fill out the scorecard on the green- walk or drive off to the next tee box, and as one of you is teeing off, the others can record the scores...

 

 

 

... LOL, especially standing on the green and looking back slowly pointing 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 and even arguing with your partners about 8 or 9!

[djahubes]

Oldie but a goodie thread.

 

I stand by 3.5 hrs as a ideal pace. 4 hours is probably more realistic. 4.5 is borderline ridiculous, and 5 is torture.

 

Played an emergency 9 after our 2 day with a tensome in just over an hour. That is too fast, but it's possible to get around in under 4 hours!!

 

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[Golfspy_CG2]

... All good. I was agreeing to disagree with Kenny B about twosomes always pairing up with the twosome behind them. Another reason I just thought of is we have been on the first tee and asked the players behind us if they want to pair up and they say definitively NO. Not much things worse than being paired up with people that don't want to be paired up with you. 

 

... And as a + index player I get it is often intimidating for others to join us. I will never understand that as when I started playing I always loved being paired with better players if they were nice people. Of course some low index players can have a condescending attitude and I get that but I am an inveterate optimist and am very supportive of those I play with. I had one guy in LA tell me being a great guy to play with only made it worse for him because he couldn't hate me as much as he wanted!   

I will say as a higher handicap player, I've run into a lot more supportive low index/plus guys than I have DB's fortunately.   The only I thing I try to be careful of is not saying "nice ball" on every tee shot and every shot from the fairway, I would expect at that level you kind of expect it, or you will have a different idea of what exactly is a good ball than I do...ha

 

I find as long as I'm keeping pace, which I always do, and using proper etiquette during their shots, they are fine with playing with me.   Sure I know they probably enjoy a good match from another plus index, but as long as you're not a jerk and keep moving, most will enjoy playing with anyone. 

[chisag]

I will say as a higher handicap player, I've run into a lot more supportive low index/plus guys than I have DB's fortunately.   The only I thing I try to be careful of is not saying "nice ball" on every tee shot and every shot from the fairway, I would expect at that level you kind of expect it, or you will have a different idea of what exactly is a good ball than I do...ha

 

I find as long as I'm keeping pace, which I always do, and using proper etiquette during their shots, they are fine with playing with me.   Sure I know they probably enjoy a good match from another plus index, but as long as you're not a jerk and keep moving, most will enjoy playing with anyone. 

 

... At 64 my days of intense personal competition are over for the most part. I am competing against myself and the course. As long as my playing pards are good companions I couldn't care less what they shoot. And as I have said many times, because of my schedule it is difficult for me to book rounds in advance so I play as a single quite a lot and you are absolutely right, I enjoy playing with anyone that respects the game and their fellow players. Fwiw, I never get tired of replying "no I don't get bored hitting fairways and greens" or hearing "good shot" or "nice ball" even if I don't think it really is. 

[tony@CIC]

Interesting that when play is slow on our course I play a lot worse.

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

... We will just have to agree to disagree on this. There have been plenty of times as a twosome we have teamed up with the twosome behind us, but other times we just did not want to join them for many of the reasons I listed earlier. And of course if you are keeping up with the group in front of you, as a twosome I would never expect to be let thru. Only if you have holes in front of you open. This is just being courteous. But even courteous is open to interpretation. The more courteous you are, the more you are aware of others around you and I would let 10 twosomes thru if I were playing with a slow group and had open holes in front of us. Yet I play behind groups that think it is some proclamation on their ability to let anyone thru.

 

... I will add the worst for me is being paired up with a slow 3some that is unaware of the groups around them. I have asked to let groups behind us through only to be told "We had to look for a ball last hole and we will catch up" or some other e use when they never looked back once. It has been my experience that slow groups just don't care that they are slow or are so unaware they don't even know they are slow.

 

I agree with you on the 2-some being allowed to play through. When there are open holes in front of the 4-some, they should allow them to play through, if there is no gap, and the course is full, then the 2-some needs to find a way to slow down, because even if they are allowed through there is no where for them to go.

 

There are ways to allow a 2 or 4 some to play through that doesn't slow the play too much. Par 3's are a good opportunity, when all the players are on the green, you allow the group behind to hit up, then while they are driving or walking up, the group can putt until they get there. At most the group ahead will have to wait just a minute or 2 in that sceneario. There are ways to do it with out costing much time. Again, the only time they should be allowed to play through if when there are open holes in front of the group.

 

As for slow play, the o e simple rule I try my best to abide by when on the course, KEEP UP WITH THE GROUP ON FRONT OF ME, If I do that I cannot be called for playing slow, for that not saying much, I am in the top 2 players of quick players in our group. By the time someone would say, hey, you're playing slow, I would have already hit a shot and driven to the next shot and played that one too.

[10shot]

If u walk ur slow, pull over and let the carts through. ha ha. Man never read so many conceded folks with their almighty talk about how I should play. I play my game don't like it TS. Ive told many a Marshall to stick that watch somewhere. Now that is unless the club has a time rule posted and enforced, wont play that course, Ill save that one for all you guys thinking golf is a timed sport. You want to run from shot to shot go for it, want to pass me go ahead dont care why Im a happy member of the club that enjoys MY game. Man what a read this thread has been, play safe and play YOUR game. This is of course MY opinion, I can have one right????

 

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[Big money]

I'm what many would consider a very slow - deliberate golfer.A long 5 plus hour round never bothers me at all.Infact I consider 5 hrs somewhat quick.I've always waved everyone thru when possible.Just learn to be considerate with others no matter what pace you play.By doing that,everyone can enjoy the course.

[chisag]

I'm what many would consider a very slow - deliberate golfer.A long 5 plus hour round never bothers me at all.Infact I consider 5 hrs somewhat quick.I've always waved everyone thru when possible.Just learn to be considerate with others no matter what pace you play.By doing that,everyone can enjoy the course.

 

 

... As long as you recognize you are 1 hour over the recommended pace of play AND you wave other groups thru, there should not be a problem. I view it kinda like a movie. There are those that enjoy a 3 hour film if it is good (I am one of them) but the majority of movie attendee's prefer just under 2 hours. Once Upon A Time In America's original release comes to mind. Many a great film has been edited down to accommodate the majority. 

 

... That said and if you don't mind the personal question, why do you think you are you so deliberate? 

[STUDque]

I commend 10shot and Big Money for sharing unpopular opinions on this thread. That's the beauty of this site is that everyone is free to speak their mind openly. Everyone plays at their own pace.

 

 

That being said, they both have a redeeming quality to their slow play: willingness to let other groups play through. That's the key. Most golfers can tolerate slow play as long as it doesn't affect the entire course flow. There's a big difference between playing slow by taking your time to make decisions and playing slow by wasting time.

 

 

I don't consider myself a fast golfer or a slow. I could play 18 under 3 hours by myself or partake in a 5+ marathon in a foursome (ie playoff matches). It really depends on the day and the speed of the groups around me.

 

 

On most days, I would probably prefer not to be paired with either of you but, if I have the time and enjoy your company, why not? There's a few players in my league that are just ungodly slow but I really enjoy being around them and they don't waste time.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Big money]

... As long as you recognize you are 1 hour over the recommended pace of play AND you wave other groups thru, there should not be a problem. I view it kinda like a movie. There are those that enjoy a 3 hour film if it is good (I am one of them) but the majority of movie attendee's prefer just under 2 hours. Once Upon A Time In America's original release comes to mind. Many a great film has been edited down to accommodate the majority.

 

... That said and if you don't mind the personal question, why do you think you are you so deliberate?

When I golf, I've always set the whole day aside just for golf.When I'm done with the round.Me and the partners will sit in the bar and talk for hours.If we enjoy the company in the bar or the course it doesn't matter what the time is.We plan on spending the whole day there anyway.Plus I treat every shot as a challenge.Analyzing yardage-terrain-conditions etc.When I'm ready to hit I can at least say I've planned for all variables.Some may say slow and deliberate.As you stated, we rarely hold anyone up.If your faster by all means play thru and enjoy the day at your own pace.Can recall only several times where a ranger said we were holding up play.

[Kor.A.Door]

When I golf, I've always set the whole day aside just for golf.When I'm done with the round.Me and the partners will sit in the bar and talk for hours.If we enjoy the company in the bar or the course it doesn't matter what the time is.We plan on spending the whole day there anyway.Plus I treat every shot as a challenge.Analyzing yardage-terrain-conditions etc.When I'm ready to hit I can at least say I've planned for all variables.Some may say slow and deliberate.As you stated, we rarely hold anyone up.If your faster by all means play thru and enjoy the day at your own pace.Can recall only several times where a ranger said we were holding up play.

I think the only time that this would become an issue is when the golf course is full, even by letting faster groups through, it slows the play of the entire course. At least you let them through, there are lots of people who don't.

[djahubes]

If u walk ur slow, pull over and let the carts through. ha ha. Man never read so many conceded folks with their almighty talk about how I should play. I play my game don't like it TS. Ive told many a Marshall to stick that watch somewhere. Now that is unless the club has a time rule posted and enforced, wont play that course, Ill save that one for all you guys thinking golf is a timed sport. You want to run from shot to shot go for it, want to pass me go ahead dont care why Im a happy member of the club that enjoys MY game. Man what a read this thread has been, play safe and play YOUR game. This is of course MY opinion, I can have one right????

 

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Sure you have!

 

Here's the deal, the world doesn't revolve around you and your game. If you are the only person out there go ahead, play 5 balls, spend countless hours, do whatever you want. The problem is there are other people trying to enjoy themselves as well. The sooner you stop thinking about just yourself maybe you would get the point. It's not conceited to expect people to follow pace of play, which is normally posted on most courses.

 

 

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[chisag]

When I golf, I've always set the whole day aside just for golf.When I'm done with the round.Me and the partners will sit in the bar and talk for hours.If we enjoy the company in the bar or the course it doesn't matter what the time is.We plan on spending the whole day there anyway.Plus I treat every shot as a challenge.Analyzing yardage-terrain-conditions etc.When I'm ready to hit I can at least say I've planned for all variables.Some may say slow and deliberate.As you stated, we rarely hold anyone up.If your faster by all means play thru and enjoy the day at your own pace.Can recall only several times where a ranger said we were holding up play.

 

 

... Thanks for the response. I don't count anything before or after the round as "slow play" and spending the whole day at the course sounds awesome. 

 

... As an instructor we certainly were aware of the term "paralysis by analysis". I also get some process information faster than others. As I am walking to my ball, I have already calculated the wind, pin location and shot required, as well as approximate yardage. All that is left is find my exact yardage and make any adjustments for my lie. Takes about 10-20 seconds max and I am ready to hit my shot. 

 

... One of the unique aspects of golf and how it effects each of us differently is the time it takes to process information, as some are faster than others. I was what you would call a gamer when I played QB in college. At practice with all the time in the world I just wasn't as accurate as I should have been. But in the game there is no time to think and you just react so I was more accurate and the speed of the game dictated my play. Golf is unique in that it is not reactionary like almost all other ball sports. I see so many high index players frozen over the ball, or take 3+ practice swings (that look nothing like heir real swing) and then hit a poor shot only to trudge 50 yds and do it all over again. I did a drill with those type of students where I teed up 10 balls just off the ground for good contact and had them step and swing without ever stopping. Almost every one of them hit the last 5 balls better than the first 5 balls because they were no longer thinking, just swinging. 

 

... I certainly would not presume to tell you how you should play, but as an experiment, it might be interesting to play a round where you play much faster than normal. Just get your yardage and hit the ball. It will be uncomfortable at first, but you may find it improves your game. Then again it could also be the worst round you ever play.   But it would be an interesting experiment either way. 

[Big money]

Good thread here

[Canucklehead]

I don't mind, and usually play 4-4.5 hours even when I'm by myself. Granted, I walk and usually right behind the horde that goes out first thing, which is at least 5 groups most days. Hit an extra shot if the first was lousy, read my putt from 3 points, etc. Always catch up to the others anyways, so no point in rushing.

 

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[revkev]

I think slow play is one of several factors impeding golf's growth. I endure it when necessary but I'm not a fan of it.

 

I do think that three and a half hours is a reasonable amount of time for a foursome to play 18 holes in.

 

Consider that Greg Norman and Fuzzy Zoeller completed an 18 hope playoff on a US Open course in under 3 hours.

 

 

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[djahubes]

Good thread here

The gift that keeps on giving.

 

 

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[djahubes]

Last thing on this from me, if it wasn't an issue then there wouldn't be hundreds of studies and initiatives to try to fix it.

 

http://www.usga.org/articles/2016/02/key-findings-point-to-potential-pace-of-play-solutions.html

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2016/pace-and-innovation-symposium/Pace-of-Play-Financial-Study.pdf

 

 

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[ddryan]

At the end of the day, golf is for the most part, a for profit endeavor for the club or pro-shop or course owner.  Revenue is driven, in part, by the number of fee paying players, so getting more thru is good for business.  It is like a restaurant- Most restaurants (fast food shops excepted) count on the first "turn" of tables to cover the fixed costs (rent, electricity, employee salaries, etc) and the second "turn" (the second or subsequent guests at the same table) is where the profit may lie (based on many other aspects including food cost, waste, etc).

 

There is financial incentive for courses to push as many paying individuals thru as possible- and therefore a financial incentive to have groups play at an acceptable pace- whether that is 3.5 hours, 4 hours or 4.5.  There is (in my humble opinion) no earthly reason a round should take any more than 4.5 hours.

 

If you are not comfortable playing in that time, or just learning, or want to play three balls from a particular area to test clubs, swing, or any other issue, don't put yourself in the "rotation" but rather go out in the afternoon, after revenue times, when there are not as many people on the course.

Findings:Pace of Play Improvement IncreasesRevenues for OperatorsValue Proposition (Macro Analysis) Total rounds less impact of tee time interval increase multiplied by increase ingreen fee (average 9%) less revenue from lost rounds Assume 40,000 total rounds 5% decrease in rounds (from increased teeintervals) average rate increase at $4.50 (on $50) Potential increase in green fees (40,000 2,000) x 4.50 = $171,000 (less lostrounds at $50) 2,000 x 50 = 100,000 - $71,000. Typically, $71,000 has no additional cost and therefore a direct increase to profitresulting in an increase in golf course value of $710,000 at a valuation multiple of10.Note: If the utilization of inventory is less than (say) 60% - 70%, typically noadjustment for loss in rounds, or the impact is minimal. data from USGA financial sdudy - 18 January 19th, 2016

[10shot]

I commend 10shot and Big Money for sharing unpopular opinions on this thread. That's the beauty of this site is that everyone is free to speak their mind openly. Everyone plays at their own pace.

 

 

That being said, they both have a redeeming quality to their slow play: willingness to let other groups play through. That's the key. Most golfers can tolerate slow play as long as it doesn't affect the entire course flow. There's a big difference between playing slow by taking your time to make decisions and playing slow by wasting time.

 

 

I don't consider myself a fast golfer or a slow. I could play 18 under 3 hours by myself or partake in a 5+ marathon in a foursome (ie playoff matches). It really depends on the day and the speed of the groups around me.

 

 

On most days, I would probably prefer not to be paired with either of you but, if I have the time and enjoy your company, why not? There's a few players in my league that are just ungodly slow but I really enjoy being around them and they don't waste time.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yep, thats OK, when The golf powers put a time limit on a game of golf I will follow the rules, until then I'll watch u guys in a big yank... shank.....

 

Have a great day golfing

 

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[10shot]

I think the only time that this would become an issue is when the golf course is full, even by letting faster groups through, it slows the play of the entire course. At least you let them through, there are lots of people who don't.

U know, there is no time limit in golf, right.

 

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[DaveP043]

U know, there is no time limit in golf, right.

The Rules of Golf include this.  You ARE aware of it, right?

 

Play at Good Pace and Keep Up

Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

[chisag]

... U recognize a troll when u see one right? 

[Kor.A.Door]

U know, there is no time limit in golf, right.

 

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Letting guys play through when the course is full actually slows the play down further, so if you are out there as a 2 some and catch up to the group in front of you, but they've been waiting, it makes no sense for you to go through because you aren't going anywhere even if you do. If there are open holes in front of that group then yes playing through should be allowed, if I've been waiting in every hole, I don't care if you are by yourself, you will not play through.

[Kor.A.Door]

... U recognize a troll when u see one right?

I should have recognized it, or read your response before typing.

[chisag]

... When you play enough golf as a single or twosome, you see just about every scenario. Pretty simple really. If nobody is in front of you and a faster group or player is behind you, let them through. If the course is crowded, I drop an extra ball and hang back when the group in front is on the next tee or simply catch up and have a conversation with them on every tee if they are a friendly bunch. Quite often we hear "we would let you thru but there is nowhere to go" and of course respond "thanks, we can see there is no place to go".

... As most of us know, it is just common courtesy both ways. Every now and then I run across a group that seems to think it impugns their manhood to let anyone thru, even when there are more than one open hole in front of them. Especially when I am playing with my wife. 

 

[cksurfdude]

... When you play enough golf as a single or twosome, you see just about every scenario. Pretty simple really. If nobody is in front of you and a faster group or player is behind you, let them through. If the course is crowded, I drop an extra ball and hang back when the group in front is on the next tee or simply catch up and have a conversation with them on every tee if they are a friendly bunch. Quite often we hear "we would let you thru but there is nowhere to go" and of course respond "thanks, we can see there is no place to go".

 

... As most of us know, it is just common courtesy both ways. Every now and then I run across a group that seems to think it impugns their manhood to let anyone thru, even when there are more than one open hole in front of them. Especially when I am playing with my wife.

 

 

Yeah I've seen those guys .. playing from the Dustin Johnson tees even though they hit like Pee Wee Herman.