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Average Drive

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I can see some merits with the stroke gain theory. I get summery after every round. Longer off the tee, or look at it another way, shorter approach to the green can be advantageous even at the expense of being in the rough, as long as it's in the correct angle to attack the pin.

 

That said, avg golfers don't practice enough from inside 125, especially inside 100 yards which makes for more difficult approach than full shots. It's what separate low handicap to mid and high handicappers not the distance off the tee, or even driving accuracy. What separate pros and low handicappers is the ability to score from 170-225 yards, imo.

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I'm sorry to be a pain but the biggest single difference between categories of players is in fact distance off the tee. The Golf Digest things shows it, Brody shows it, another recent study delineating the difference between a touring pro and scratch player showed it - every study out there shows it.

 

It's distance off the tee first - always -

 

What do you think the biggest difference is between big league and college pitching? Yes big leaguers have better control and a better plan, etc, etc - they also have an avg fastball of 92 vs 83 for the college pitcher.

 

Same thing

 

It starts with the tee ball - the next most important thing is debatable but the first one is always the same in every study.

 

 

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I'm sorry to be a pain but the biggest single difference between categories of players is in fact distance off the tee. The Golf Digest things shows it, Brody shows it, another recent study delineating the difference between a touring pro and scratch player showed it - every study out there shows it.

It's distance off the tee first - always -

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Yeah sure why not, distance off the tee is the main difference between PGA pros and everyone else, as a "category" of players. I just don't think that the stroke gain from driving distance is what give them the astronomical advantage over me. For sure it's not putting as I tie with Lee Westwood at 1.7 stroke per hole and trail Jim Furik and Graeme McDowell by just a bit at 1.6.

 

I can play their drives from the fairway and still can't approach their score. So somewhere between their drives and being on the green they kick my A$$.

 

I can out drive some of the LPGA tour players(avg carry 218 yards), but it does not mean my stroke gain will mean anything to them. Same way I feel about some young high capers who blast their drives 290-300 yards. They are no threat:).

 

It's not the (just) distance off the tee that separate pros to amateurs, if it is low handicappers would have a shot against the LPGA players but we still don't, even less chance against the champion PGA players.

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@Rusty I agree with your last statement although you might be stunned at how far LPGA players hit the ball. Given that two of them are members at my club and one is very popular we find LPGA players there all the time. The only ones who hit it farther than them are one of our pros, Brittany's husband (who used to be a long drive guy) and a handful of younger guys a couple of whom play college golf. You may be as long as some of them but you may also be in for a rude awakening.

 

Yes I agree that pros of both stripes are better across the board. My only point is that statistically speaking the biggest difference is driving distance and that holds true across player categories.

 

Also it's not distance alone but it's distance plus penalty stroke avoidance. That's what creates the strokes gained driving category. In that category just in the left rough may trump right side of the fairway because the green opens up from the left side.

 

 

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No matter how long I've played this great game.Ive been 240 to 250 carry with my driver.With roll I max out at 260.Out of curiosity,I would drop a ball 300 from the tee and look back.Only way I could hit 300 is with a rocket launcher attached too the cart

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I play with a few juniors at our clubs most are slow and decent. A few are exceptional, one girl is a +4, it may not look like a lot on paper between her handicap and I, but our game are in a different league. This is my club, I shoot underpar all the time, my game here is full of confidence across the board, a few times I played with this girl I feel so out-classed. Her driving avg is about 20 yard shorter.

 

I know distance off the tee counts for something but thru personal experience playing with better players, including an ex-girlfriend in college who was a scratch player( when I was 14 handicap) taught me that it's a small part that separate good players from not yet so good ones.

 

I agree pros of all strips are in the different league when it comes to distance off the tee, impressive distance and not even approaching their redline.

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I play with a few juniors at our clubs most are slow and decent. A few are exceptional, one girl is a +4, it may not look like a lot on paper between her handicap and I, but our game are in a different league. This is my club, I shoot underpar all the time, my game here is full of confidence across the board, a few times I played with this girl I feel so out-classed. Her driving avg is about 20 yard shorter.

 

I know distance off the tee counts for something but thru personal experience playing with better players, including an ex-girlfriend in college who was a scratch player( when I was 14 handicap) taught me that it's a small part that separate good players from not yet so good ones.

 

I agree pros of all strips are in the different league when it comes to distance off the tee, impressive distance and not even approaching their redline.

And that's my point - when we have handicaps they come for a variety of reasons. If somehow, some way we are as good as a touring pro in a category we are going to be incredibly deficient in the others.

 

Consistently though distance is the biggest factor. Consistently armatures over estimate their distance and so think it isn't.

 

A plus 4? Brittany is a plus 2 or 3 at our club - it's 75 /144 from the tips so she's breaking par from there about once every 4 rounds. And she's in the top 20 in the world. That girl must be incredible. Why isn't she on tour?

 

In a side note her name is next to mine on the handicap sheet. It's very humbling. There was one time when she and I were the only ones on the range together. She was hitting driver after driver to a golf cart that was 284 from where we were at. It was impressive.

 

I may be a better putter than her and am definitely a better chipper. Her ball striking is sick. Just awesome, more like a PGA player than an LPGA one.

 

 

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Consistently though distance is the biggest factor. Consistently armatures over estimate their distance and so think it isn't.

A plus 4? Brittany is a plus 2 or 3 at our club - it's 75 /144 from the tips so she's breaking par from there about once every 4 rounds. And she's in the top 20 in the world. That girl must be incredible. Why isn't she on tour?

 

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I had a privilege to play and know several good junior players. I'm playing with one right now from time to time, though he's no longer a jr, just a few years younger than me. this girl was already a good solid golfer when she arrived from Asia. I was told she's +4 and had no reason to question that at all. I shot 71 the round played with her and she shot 66 at our club. She's too young to join the tour and it takes more than low scores at the home clubs to be an LPGA player. A few big tournaments would separate a few players who could survive the pressure of touring.

 

All low singles and scratch player have one thing in common, their short game. They may have decent driving distance but short game is a must have. Sadly it's a perishable skills that's why my handicap move up and down depending on the amount of golf I get to play. 3-4 rounds per week is an absolute must in order for me to keep the skills sharp enough for the task.

 

None I know have any delusion about their perceived distance and actual distance. Perceived skills and actual skills is another story. How much of your range game can you bring onto the course. Can you do that under pressure too. I know I can't, I often play like a 10 handicap in tournament.

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Sorry Rusty I'm not buying - players on tour have ball striking in common- the best players in the world are the best ball strikers.

 

Again that is statistically verifiable. The better the player, the better the ball striker.

 

We may disagree and that's fine but I do have the numbers on my side.

 

Bobby Locke. God rest his soul, was dead wrong and the stats prove it.

 

 

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Fair enough. I may have understood your message wrong. What I heard you said was mainly distance is what separate the rest from pros. Or to put it into my context distance is what separate good player from not as good ones.

 

This is the opposite of what I believe, stats or no stats. What I'm saying is the difference between low am to mid am is short game. Driving distance helps but it's not a must.

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Fair enough. I may have understood your message wrong. What I heard you said was mainly distance is what separate the rest from pros. Or to put it into my context distance is what separate good player from not as good ones.

 

This is the opposite of what I believe, stats or no stats. What I'm saying is the difference between low am to mid am is short game. Driving distance helps but it's not a must.

Rusty,

 

I agree. Difference is 150 yards and in. And even more 100 yards and in.

Look at the Memorial today. Those fairways are running. Distance is nothing. If you can scramble and make putts you will win.

 

 

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I'm sorry guys but I have to go back to the stats - look them up for yourselves. Distance does separate but it must of course be usable - all guys on tour have distance.

 

So to the scrambling myth and the memorial - look at the top 10 money winners. All are in the top 25 strokes gained tee to green. Only one, Rickey Fowler, is in the top 25 strokes gained putting or around the green. Jason Duffner's position in strokes gained putting actually got worse while winning. The key was he was near the top of the field strokes gained tee to green.

 

No one ever accused Jack of having a good short game and while Tiger did it was not the reason he dominated. He had a run of leading the strokes gained tee to green stat. They didn't have that when Jack played but he regularly hit 16 or 17 greens in regulation.

 

Distance is the biggest but not the only determining factor between pros and scratch and then each subsequent group because usable distance contributes to fewer strokes. There is over 30 yards between a scratch player and a guy on tour off the tee on average. Multiply that by 14 and you get 420 yards - that's why the strokes gained driving stats say 3.5 between the groups. That's more than double any other category and about half the difference in handicap index.

 

Between other handicap groups it's less significant. I'm all in on that. I've certainly taken down my share of guys who hit it well longer than I do but I've had to make up for it by being better at everything else.

 

I have a wicked good short game. It's the only way that I could hit the ball as poorly as I do right now and break 80 on the course that I play.

 

If you made my short game average for my handicap, let me do everything else as I do now and gave me 30 yards I would be a better player beyond a doubt. I'd only get up and down 4/10 instead of 6/10 but I wouldn't be missing 10 greens anymore, because I'd be hitting less club in getting it closer to the hole on average - yada yada

 

Usable distance isn't the only factor but it is the most significant one between handicap groups in any statistical study that I've ever seen.

 

We've probably exhausted this one and clearly aren't going to agree and that's fine. It's a fun discussion. I just wish we were having it over a beer or a coffee. (Since it's 6 AM)

 

 

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I'm still struggling to find that upstrike without going too low on the face

 

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Three things to consider Canucklehead:

 

1. Ball position and tee height. To work on consistent ball position get some alignment sticks. Put one along your footline at the tips of your shoes and then put another at a 90 degree angle pointing at the ball. Then set up with the inside of the heel of your front foot about a half inch in front of the ball. Teeing height is difficult but a great rule of thumb is making sure the equator of the ball is at or just below the top of the driver face.

2. Is your spine angle correct at setup? To create a swing motion that has an upward angle of attack, I would recommend you have a slight tilt in your spine away from the ball. Or in other words, your back shoulder is slightly lower then your front shoulder.

3. Focus on keeping your back shoulder (right shoulder for a right hander) low through impact.

 

Hope it helps. It might feel weird at first and but give it some time. It is how I have set up for driver since I was 15 years old and it creates a great attack angle.

 

 

 

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Three things to consider Canucklehead:

 

1. Ball position and tee height. To work on consistent ball position get some alignment sticks. Put one along your footline at the tips of your shoes and then put another at a 90 degree angle pointing at the ball. Then set up with the inside of the heel of your front foot about a half inch in front of the ball. Teeing height is difficult but a great rule of thumb is making sure the equator of the ball is at or just below the top of the driver face.

2. Is your spine angle correct at setup? To create a swing motion that has an upward angle of attack, I would recommend you have a slight tilt in your spine away from the ball. Or in other words, your back shoulder is slightly lower then your front shoulder.

3. Focus on keeping your back shoulder (right shoulder for a right hander) low through impact.

 

Hope it helps. It might feel weird at first and but give it some time. It is how I have set up for driver since I was 15 years old and it creates a great attack angle.

 

 

 

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Thanks for the advice Burk!! 🙂 I actually took a lesson the other day and one thing my pro noticed was I was tucking my head down a little bit. So he got me to straighten the head to be more in line with my spine and that helped a lot. Head was bobbing up and down a little bit through the swing which was likely the reason for the inconsistencies

 

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I consistently carry the ball 250 yds and with roll out I get anywhere from 260-265. The conditions have to be right for me to carry any longer and get max roll out.  

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I used to be one of those guys who thought they hit it 300 consistently... not even close.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_2934.PNG

 

 

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What app is that? Looks like something I want to try

 

 

The name don't lie...

Leaving tap ins short since '00

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What app is that? Looks like something I want to try

 

 

The name don't lie...

Leaving tap ins short since '00

Game Golf Live

 

 

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Here is what the SkyCaddie game stats look like. Second stage review coming next week.

 

 

 

 

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I was standing behind the end zone watching a HS football game last fall. The fans coming in at the other end zone were just 140 yards away but if it had been a fairway I would have sworn they were 200+/- yards away. When I saw 140 from that perspective, I was very happy with my 7 iron.

 

 

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