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Dr Strangelove

Club weighting -- shaft weights or lead tape?

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Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

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Driver:  :ping-small: G410 Plus, VA Vylyn 75 Four
Woods: :cobra-small:F8, F6 Baffer
Hybrids: :callaway-small: XR 4, 5
Irons: PXG 0211 6 - GW
Wedges::ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth 54/14, Zing LW
Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma G Craz-E

Leupold GX-4i3

Penalty Box: :EVNROLL:ER7, :ping-small: G25 irons

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Well, this is just an educated guess, but my thought would be that because driver heads are much lighter than iron heads, moving weights around affects the performance more. I know, for instance, that the EPIC driver head has a 17 gram sliding weight in the back and that it's a lighter driver head so the performance would be effected much more than putting a 10 gram tip weight in a much heavier iron head. People try to use lead tape to affect ball flight but it takes a ton of tape to change the flight characteristics and it would look gaudy on the club. For the most part, people more frequently use lead tape to change the swingweight.


Titleist TS3 9.5* w/Accra TZ5 65 X-Stiff
Titleist TS3 15* w/Fujikura Ventus 7X
Callaway Apex19 Hybrid 20* w/Accra TZ5 95X
Callaway Apex19 Hybrid 23* w/Accra TZ5 95X
Titleist 718 CB 5 iron w/KBS $Taper X-Stiff
Titleist 718 MB 6-PW w/KBS $Taper X-Stiff
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If adding tip weight to a shaft doesn't make any difference, why did Cleveland take 9 grams out of their RTX-3 hosels to move the CG toward the center of the club face?


We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I'm going to disagree with my pal Kenny. Adding weight does make a difference. At least as far as feel goes it does. I recall during my last iron fitting my guy would place a small piece of lead on the hosel and I then struck a few balls while he asked questions and got feedback from me. Such as... how does that feel? And I'd tell him. Too heavy... too light, can't feel the head, etc. etc. I recall eventually I said that feels great. Solid, etc. I love it.

After we finished my fitter asked me to hold out my hand as he placed a few tiny lead shots in my palm telling me that's the amount of weight he'll add to my clubs. I was shocked. I couldn't feel the weight in my hand but on the club it was huge.

 

Another guy here that knows a thing or two about weighting and lead tape is Big Stu. You might look for him.


My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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If adding tip weight to a shaft doesn't make any difference, why did Cleveland take 9 grams out of their RTX-3 hosels to move the CG toward the center of the club face?

 

Because weight in the hosel is useless - it doesn't form any striking part of the clubhead and creates an unnecessary mass away from the centre of the club face.

The problem is, hosels are necessary to attach a shaft to the head (although Callaway among others created zero hosel designs) and it makes altering loft and lie a lot easier.

It is true the driver designs are more sensitive to weight adjustment than irons for the reasons outlined by chersey, but it's worth noting that it takes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of weight positioning before you can alter ball flight. Discretionary weight positioning can enhance swing path and strike tendencies, but they can't fix or alter ball flight to the extent that it will straighten out a hook or slice.

Another point to note is that length plays a role in weight placement. As you get longer ( a driver the extreme example) then small amounts of weight adjustment to the head will dramatically alter swing weight and flex. As you get shorter, the same weight is less noticeable.

Lead tape is still the easiest quick and dirty way to alter (add) swing weight for any club, but don't go thinking that putting it heel or toe will dramatically alter the MOI or CoG of the club -it won't. 

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I agree that weight in the hosel is useless, which is why I referenced Cleveland.  So, all of their talk about moving weight from the hosel of a wedge to alter the sweet spot is all hype?  Other than altering swingweight, there is no point in putting weight in the hosel.  Weight would be best served elsewhere.


We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

Jaskanski nailed it with the effect on ball flight.

 

As for weighting while you build for me the easiest way is to use shaft tip weight.  It's clean and if you are already rebuilding it's the easiest.  Typically powder is used when needing a fair amount of weight but you aren't rebuilding the clubs.  You don't have to pull the heads to use powder.  Shaft tip weights are easiest if you are already pulling the heads.  Lead tape is best if you don't want to rebuild, but don't need to add a ton of weight.  A few grams here or there is a great use for lead tape.

 

So 3 different ways to achieve the same results, it just depends on how much weight you need to add and whether or not you are going to be pulling the shafts anyway.


Driver: :callaway-logo-1: Epic SZ w/ VA Composites Raijin 65 04

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :ping-small: 5i-UW G700 w/ X100 soft stepped once

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 & 58 CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Thanks everyone


Driver:  :ping-small: G410 Plus, VA Vylyn 75 Four
Woods: :cobra-small:F8, F6 Baffer
Hybrids: :callaway-small: XR 4, 5
Irons: PXG 0211 6 - GW
Wedges::ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth 54/14, Zing LW
Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma G Craz-E

Leupold GX-4i3

Penalty Box: :EVNROLL:ER7, :ping-small: G25 irons

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.


My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

If you read through the thread the bottom line is that for irons it's basically hitting a desired swing weight and it doesn't matter where you add it.  There isn't going to be an effect on ball flight based on hosel, heel, toe placement etc

 

I reach the sweet spot somewhere between D5 and D7.  No difference in ball flight other than I start hitting the sweet spot


Driver: :callaway-logo-1: Epic SZ w/ VA Composites Raijin 65 04

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :ping-small: 5i-UW G700 w/ X100 soft stepped once

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 & 58 CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Kenny- moving weight from a useless part (hosel) of a club to the effective part can move the sweet spot to a more adventageous location, giving better feel, distance control, etc. It may help close or hold off the clubface depending on where the weight is positioned. It will not, in and of itself, alter ball flight. Only geometry (applied to physics) does that.

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Adams Super LS 17*

Adams XTD Ti 23*

Wilson Staff Ci7 4-PW

Adams wedges: 52/7 56/13 60/7

Wilson Staff Infinite Southside putter/Odyssey DualForce 660 putter

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Adding weight in the hosel is a placebo effect. It alters how a club balances and thus how it "feels" to the player. Nothing Performance related (unless you're adding a bunch of weight, takes 20 grams before there's any measurable effect on flight in a driver and even then it's minuscule). The effect adding weight in the amounts people add for swingweight is altering how the club feels to them. I swingweight to a heavier weight than most for personal clubs to feel the position of the head, not for performance

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In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Lead tape on my driver has been the ticket! 44 inches an four two inch strips from the heal has been a miracle for me. Plus a jumbo grip and a red tie shaft and a good swing

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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Callaway  Epic Flash 10.5 Driver
Callaway  XR16 4- Wood
Callaway Steelhead 3 Hybrid
Callaway  Rogue X Irons 5 - AW 
Cleveland RTX-4 50 & 56 / RTX-3 60
Ping  Sigma G Tyne Putter

 

 



 

 

 

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Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights. 

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... I am always shocked at how much weight OEM's install in the hosel. Mizuno had radically different weights in the MP59's I took apart and reshafted. Titleist was just as bad with my AP2's. I prefer a slightly heavier swing weight with Recoil 95 and 110's, so I have lead tape on my irons to get them to D4. I would never add weight to the hosel unless I was adding the same weight to each club, which is just about impossible. 

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Driver:   Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 9* ... Tensei Pro Orange 60r
Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 75s
Utility:   TaylorMade RBZ Tour Hy ... Matrix Altus 85 hy
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Kuro Kage 105 Tini s-flex
              4-pw TaylorMade P760 ... Recoil Prototype 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind /SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Recoil 110s
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5x

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Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights.

5-10 grams isn't enough to change the flex. Don't believe it, cpm a shaft then add 5-10 grams and do it again. No change in cpm which is a measure of flexural stiffness.

 

Same with the weight, been tested. Takes 20 grams or more in a driver to have any change or impact on ball flight when tested via a robot

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In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Alpha Distanza 40 weak R flex shaft

Tour Exotics EX 10 3 wood

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,58

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).


Driver:  :ping-small: G410 Plus, VA Vylyn 75 Four
Woods: :cobra-small:F8, F6 Baffer
Hybrids: :callaway-small: XR 4, 5
Irons: PXG 0211 6 - GW
Wedges::ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth 54/14, Zing LW
Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma G Craz-E

Leupold GX-4i3

Penalty Box: :EVNROLL:ER7, :ping-small: G25 irons

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Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).

 

Well no - you are probably confusing club path with face angle, which are two different things. The weighting in any specific area (e.g. heel or toe) of a club is to lessen the tendency to twist for off centre strikes. This is basic kinetics and MOI in action. 

If however the swing path and face angle are hopelessly out of sync (usually as a result of a poor swing) then all the weighting in the head to combat twisting is a complete waste of time. 

So apply weighting to get your club path and face angle correct first by all means - whether by swing weighting or MOI matching to achieve this - but don't expect any discretionary weight placement to have any effect on off-centre strikes before you have your face angle relative to your club path first. 

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Interesting topic...I use tip weights in building a set to get a specific swing weight, either for consistency in the set progression or to MOI it to a set SW for all clubs. But I wouldn't think of it as changing/potentially changing the flight characteristic of a swing...allowing a player to achieve the best swing he/she can...yes.

 

I use lead tape in the fitting process to determine what gives the player the best feel/feedback from his/her swing. I'm not sure if the placement of the lead tape would alter the flight characteristic of a swing...I'll accept if someone says it does (same as if you adjust weights on a Cure putter it will increase/decrease the toe movement) but I would be doubtful that a strip or 2 (under 10g) would be that much of a difference.

 

As to the 'pouring shot down the shaft' I have done that with putters, used a cork and epoxy to hold it in place, but for me...I think I would avoid it in a iron/wood. When you pack it (so to speak) to avoid the 'swish' sound it would make going up and down the shaft; I would assume you have altered the strength/flex of that point of the shaft...good if thats what you wanted to do, but not so good if it alters the feel from the fitting to the finished product.

 

Be interested to read some more opinions.

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RBZ 10.5* driver

DTG Turner H-1 4/5/7 woods

Titleist AP1 irons

TM Tour Preferred wedges (50/54/58)

Hannah C curve putter

My swing speed is on the cusp, stiff flex driver, working down to a regular flex in the irons.

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