Jump to content
Dr Strangelove

Club weighting -- shaft weights or lead tape?

Recommended Posts

Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this is just an educated guess, but my thought would be that because driver heads are much lighter than iron heads, moving weights around affects the performance more. I know, for instance, that the EPIC driver head has a 17 gram sliding weight in the back and that it's a lighter driver head so the performance would be effected much more than putting a 10 gram tip weight in a much heavier iron head. People try to use lead tape to affect ball flight but it takes a ton of tape to change the flight characteristics and it would look gaudy on the club. For the most part, people more frequently use lead tape to change the swingweight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If adding tip weight to a shaft doesn't make any difference, why did Cleveland take 9 grams out of their RTX-3 hosels to move the CG toward the center of the club face?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to disagree with my pal Kenny. Adding weight does make a difference. At least as far as feel goes it does. I recall during my last iron fitting my guy would place a small piece of lead on the hosel and I then struck a few balls while he asked questions and got feedback from me. Such as... how does that feel? And I'd tell him. Too heavy... too light, can't feel the head, etc. etc. I recall eventually I said that feels great. Solid, etc. I love it.

After we finished my fitter asked me to hold out my hand as he placed a few tiny lead shots in my palm telling me that's the amount of weight he'll add to my clubs. I was shocked. I couldn't feel the weight in my hand but on the club it was huge.

 

Another guy here that knows a thing or two about weighting and lead tape is Big Stu. You might look for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If adding tip weight to a shaft doesn't make any difference, why did Cleveland take 9 grams out of their RTX-3 hosels to move the CG toward the center of the club face?

 

Because weight in the hosel is useless - it doesn't form any striking part of the clubhead and creates an unnecessary mass away from the centre of the club face.

The problem is, hosels are necessary to attach a shaft to the head (although Callaway among others created zero hosel designs) and it makes altering loft and lie a lot easier.

It is true the driver designs are more sensitive to weight adjustment than irons for the reasons outlined by chersey, but it's worth noting that it takes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of weight positioning before you can alter ball flight. Discretionary weight positioning can enhance swing path and strike tendencies, but they can't fix or alter ball flight to the extent that it will straighten out a hook or slice.

Another point to note is that length plays a role in weight placement. As you get longer ( a driver the extreme example) then small amounts of weight adjustment to the head will dramatically alter swing weight and flex. As you get shorter, the same weight is less noticeable.

Lead tape is still the easiest quick and dirty way to alter (add) swing weight for any club, but don't go thinking that putting it heel or toe will dramatically alter the MOI or CoG of the club -it won't. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that weight in the hosel is useless, which is why I referenced Cleveland.  So, all of their talk about moving weight from the hosel of a wedge to alter the sweet spot is all hype?  Other than altering swingweight, there is no point in putting weight in the hosel.  Weight would be best served elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

Jaskanski nailed it with the effect on ball flight.

 

As for weighting while you build for me the easiest way is to use shaft tip weight.  It's clean and if you are already rebuilding it's the easiest.  Typically powder is used when needing a fair amount of weight but you aren't rebuilding the clubs.  You don't have to pull the heads to use powder.  Shaft tip weights are easiest if you are already pulling the heads.  Lead tape is best if you don't want to rebuild, but don't need to add a ton of weight.  A few grams here or there is a great use for lead tape.

 

So 3 different ways to achieve the same results, it just depends on how much weight you need to add and whether or not you are going to be pulling the shafts anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

If you read through the thread the bottom line is that for irons it's basically hitting a desired swing weight and it doesn't matter where you add it.  There isn't going to be an effect on ball flight based on hosel, heel, toe placement etc

 

I reach the sweet spot somewhere between D5 and D7.  No difference in ball flight other than I start hitting the sweet spot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kenny- moving weight from a useless part (hosel) of a club to the effective part can move the sweet spot to a more adventageous location, giving better feel, distance control, etc. It may help close or hold off the clubface depending on where the weight is positioned. It will not, in and of itself, alter ball flight. Only geometry (applied to physics) does that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Adding weight in the hosel is a placebo effect. It alters how a club balances and thus how it "feels" to the player. Nothing Performance related (unless you're adding a bunch of weight, takes 20 grams before there's any measurable effect on flight in a driver and even then it's minuscule). The effect adding weight in the amounts people add for swingweight is altering how the club feels to them. I swingweight to a heavier weight than most for personal clubs to feel the position of the head, not for performance

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lead tape on my driver has been the ticket! 44 inches an four two inch strips from the heal has been a miracle for me. Plus a jumbo grip and a red tie shaft and a good swing

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... I am always shocked at how much weight OEM's install in the hosel. Mizuno had radically different weights in the MP59's I took apart and reshafted. Titleist was just as bad with my AP2's. I prefer a slightly heavier swing weight with Recoil 95 and 110's, so I have lead tape on my irons to get them to D4. I would never add weight to the hosel unless I was adding the same weight to each club, which is just about impossible. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights.

5-10 grams isn't enough to change the flex. Don't believe it, cpm a shaft then add 5-10 grams and do it again. No change in cpm which is a measure of flexural stiffness.

 

Same with the weight, been tested. Takes 20 grams or more in a driver to have any change or impact on ball flight when tested via a robot

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).

 

Well no - you are probably confusing club path with face angle, which are two different things. The weighting in any specific area (e.g. heel or toe) of a club is to lessen the tendency to twist for off centre strikes. This is basic kinetics and MOI in action. 

If however the swing path and face angle are hopelessly out of sync (usually as a result of a poor swing) then all the weighting in the head to combat twisting is a complete waste of time. 

So apply weighting to get your club path and face angle correct first by all means - whether by swing weighting or MOI matching to achieve this - but don't expect any discretionary weight placement to have any effect on off-centre strikes before you have your face angle relative to your club path first. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting topic...I use tip weights in building a set to get a specific swing weight, either for consistency in the set progression or to MOI it to a set SW for all clubs. But I wouldn't think of it as changing/potentially changing the flight characteristic of a swing...allowing a player to achieve the best swing he/she can...yes.

 

I use lead tape in the fitting process to determine what gives the player the best feel/feedback from his/her swing. I'm not sure if the placement of the lead tape would alter the flight characteristic of a swing...I'll accept if someone says it does (same as if you adjust weights on a Cure putter it will increase/decrease the toe movement) but I would be doubtful that a strip or 2 (under 10g) would be that much of a difference.

 

As to the 'pouring shot down the shaft' I have done that with putters, used a cork and epoxy to hold it in place, but for me...I think I would avoid it in a iron/wood. When you pack it (so to speak) to avoid the 'swish' sound it would make going up and down the shaft; I would assume you have altered the strength/flex of that point of the shaft...good if thats what you wanted to do, but not so good if it alters the feel from the fitting to the finished product.

 

Be interested to read some more opinions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Announcements

×
×
  • Create New...