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Club weighting -- shaft weights or lead tape?


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Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

:ping-small:G410 plus driver,:taylormade-small:Aeroburner 3W, :cobra-small:F6 Baffler 
:callaway-small:XR 4, 5 hybrids
:titleist-small:2021 T300 6 - GW, SW irons
:callaway-small: Mack Daddy CB 58/12 wedge
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Alternates: Srixon ZX4 MKII irons

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Well, this is just an educated guess, but my thought would be that because driver heads are much lighter than iron heads, moving weights around affects the performance more. I know, for instance, that the EPIC driver head has a 17 gram sliding weight in the back and that it's a lighter driver head so the performance would be effected much more than putting a 10 gram tip weight in a much heavier iron head. People try to use lead tape to affect ball flight but it takes a ton of tape to change the flight characteristics and it would look gaudy on the club. For the most part, people more frequently use lead tape to change the swingweight.

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I'm going to disagree with my pal Kenny. Adding weight does make a difference. At least as far as feel goes it does. I recall during my last iron fitting my guy would place a small piece of lead on the hosel and I then struck a few balls while he asked questions and got feedback from me. Such as... how does that feel? And I'd tell him. Too heavy... too light, can't feel the head, etc. etc. I recall eventually I said that feels great. Solid, etc. I love it.

After we finished my fitter asked me to hold out my hand as he placed a few tiny lead shots in my palm telling me that's the amount of weight he'll add to my clubs. I was shocked. I couldn't feel the weight in my hand but on the club it was huge.

 

Another guy here that knows a thing or two about weighting and lead tape is Big Stu. You might look for him.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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If adding tip weight to a shaft doesn't make any difference, why did Cleveland take 9 grams out of their RTX-3 hosels to move the CG toward the center of the club face?

 

Because weight in the hosel is useless - it doesn't form any striking part of the clubhead and creates an unnecessary mass away from the centre of the club face.

The problem is, hosels are necessary to attach a shaft to the head (although Callaway among others created zero hosel designs) and it makes altering loft and lie a lot easier.

It is true the driver designs are more sensitive to weight adjustment than irons for the reasons outlined by chersey, but it's worth noting that it takes a lot (and I mean a LOT) of weight positioning before you can alter ball flight. Discretionary weight positioning can enhance swing path and strike tendencies, but they can't fix or alter ball flight to the extent that it will straighten out a hook or slice.

Another point to note is that length plays a role in weight placement. As you get longer ( a driver the extreme example) then small amounts of weight adjustment to the head will dramatically alter swing weight and flex. As you get shorter, the same weight is less noticeable.

Lead tape is still the easiest quick and dirty way to alter (add) swing weight for any club, but don't go thinking that putting it heel or toe will dramatically alter the MOI or CoG of the club -it won't. 

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I agree that weight in the hosel is useless, which is why I referenced Cleveland.  So, all of their talk about moving weight from the hosel of a wedge to alter the sweet spot is all hype?  Other than altering swingweight, there is no point in putting weight in the hosel.  Weight would be best served elsewhere.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Hello. I have in mind to get an extra set of irons and try re-shafting them.  The topic that has always puzzled me is weight adjustment.  Some advocate using shaft tip weights.  Others say to pour powder down the shaft.  And then there is always lead tape.

 

Here's the part that gets me confused.  The OEMs are spending all kind of marketing and engineering dollars trying to allow us to move 5 grams around on a driver or iron (PXG), yet I'm reading that adding a 10 gram tip weight to an iron shaft - the heal of the club - makes no difference to the playing dynamics.  I don't get it.  If that's the case, then why even bother with lead tape (or more specifically, lead tape placement)?

 

Signed,

Confused

Jaskanski nailed it with the effect on ball flight.

 

As for weighting while you build for me the easiest way is to use shaft tip weight.  It's clean and if you are already rebuilding it's the easiest.  Typically powder is used when needing a fair amount of weight but you aren't rebuilding the clubs.  You don't have to pull the heads to use powder.  Shaft tip weights are easiest if you are already pulling the heads.  Lead tape is best if you don't want to rebuild, but don't need to add a ton of weight.  A few grams here or there is a great use for lead tape.

 

So 3 different ways to achieve the same results, it just depends on how much weight you need to add and whether or not you are going to be pulling the shafts anyway.

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3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

If you read through the thread the bottom line is that for irons it's basically hitting a desired swing weight and it doesn't matter where you add it.  There isn't going to be an effect on ball flight based on hosel, heel, toe placement etc

 

I reach the sweet spot somewhere between D5 and D7.  No difference in ball flight other than I start hitting the sweet spot

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Kenny- moving weight from a useless part (hosel) of a club to the effective part can move the sweet spot to a more adventageous location, giving better feel, distance control, etc. It may help close or hold off the clubface depending on where the weight is positioned. It will not, in and of itself, alter ball flight. Only geometry (applied to physics) does that.

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Adding weight in the hosel is a placebo effect. It alters how a club balances and thus how it "feels" to the player. Nothing Performance related (unless you're adding a bunch of weight, takes 20 grams before there's any measurable effect on flight in a driver and even then it's minuscule). The effect adding weight in the amounts people add for swingweight is altering how the club feels to them. I swingweight to a heavier weight than most for personal clubs to feel the position of the head, not for performance

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Lead tape on my driver has been the ticket! 44 inches an four two inch strips from the heal has been a miracle for me. Plus a jumbo grip and a red tie shaft and a good swing

 

 

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Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights. 

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... I am always shocked at how much weight OEM's install in the hosel. Mizuno had radically different weights in the MP59's I took apart and reshafted. Titleist was just as bad with my AP2's. I prefer a slightly heavier swing weight with Recoil 95 and 110's, so I have lead tape on my irons to get them to D4. I would never add weight to the hosel unless I was adding the same weight to each club, which is just about impossible. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
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Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
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Swingweights are very important. If you have swingweights that are very out of whack then each club will feel very different to one another. Mostly in regards to a set of irons.

 

A 10 gram weight will change the swingweight a lot and that will change the flex of the shaft, so in turn it will affect the club dynamics. Adding or removing weight from the hosel or clubhead will noticeably change the flex of the shaft. Also, a 5 gram weight moving it around a driver or any clubhead will affect the dynamics of the club.

 

Weighting and weighting location make a big difference. Just do an experiment. I have done this many times. Get a driver and add weight to the head. The shaft will get softer. Or, get two drivers with same loft. One a front weighted driver (SLDR) and low rear weighted driver with the same shaft. Totally different ball flights.

5-10 grams isn't enough to change the flex. Don't believe it, cpm a shaft then add 5-10 grams and do it again. No change in cpm which is a measure of flexural stiffness.

 

Same with the weight, been tested. Takes 20 grams or more in a driver to have any change or impact on ball flight when tested via a robot

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Then I wondering why my fitter who is nationally recognized in the club fitting business (+30 years) is adding weight to the hosel I my irons. As far as I'm concerned I loved the way the feel of my irons came into focus is you will.

Adding the weight seemed to make a difference to me. My irons feel and play great.

Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

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Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Jas is a fitter - in reading his post he stated that weighting may assist a players club path. So even if the weight itself doesn't effect ball flight your swing will (more than anything else). If the club is easier for you in delivering the sweet spot to the ball you will see a more consistent ball flight.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).

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:callaway-small:XR 4, 5 hybrids
:titleist-small:2021 T300 6 - GW, SW irons
:callaway-small: Mack Daddy CB 58/12 wedge
Axis1 Rose putter

Alternates: Srixon ZX4 MKII irons

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Yes, this was along the line of my question.  I always understood weight positioning (when fitting / tinkering, not designing the clubhead) to be about enhancing a golfer's swing path.  For example, putting lead tape towards the toe to battle the tendency to shut the face too soon and hook and vice versa for a slice.

 

If that is true, then I never understood why one would want to put tip weights on a shaft.  It seems your irons would become more hook biased.  Hooks are my miss, so I try not to encourage them.

 

Seems some folks are saying lead tape placement for swing path is nonsense, which would support the thought that putting weight wherever, including the shaft tip, makes no difference to swing path.  But if you do believe lead tape makes a difference in swing path, then I can't see why you would want to put weight into the shaft.

 

Or have I hopelessly confused myself again (and everyone in the process).

 

Well no - you are probably confusing club path with face angle, which are two different things. The weighting in any specific area (e.g. heel or toe) of a club is to lessen the tendency to twist for off centre strikes. This is basic kinetics and MOI in action. 

If however the swing path and face angle are hopelessly out of sync (usually as a result of a poor swing) then all the weighting in the head to combat twisting is a complete waste of time. 

So apply weighting to get your club path and face angle correct first by all means - whether by swing weighting or MOI matching to achieve this - but don't expect any discretionary weight placement to have any effect on off-centre strikes before you have your face angle relative to your club path first. 

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Interesting topic...I use tip weights in building a set to get a specific swing weight, either for consistency in the set progression or to MOI it to a set SW for all clubs. But I wouldn't think of it as changing/potentially changing the flight characteristic of a swing...allowing a player to achieve the best swing he/she can...yes.

 

I use lead tape in the fitting process to determine what gives the player the best feel/feedback from his/her swing. I'm not sure if the placement of the lead tape would alter the flight characteristic of a swing...I'll accept if someone says it does (same as if you adjust weights on a Cure putter it will increase/decrease the toe movement) but I would be doubtful that a strip or 2 (under 10g) would be that much of a difference.

 

As to the 'pouring shot down the shaft' I have done that with putters, used a cork and epoxy to hold it in place, but for me...I think I would avoid it in a iron/wood. When you pack it (so to speak) to avoid the 'swish' sound it would make going up and down the shaft; I would assume you have altered the strength/flex of that point of the shaft...good if thats what you wanted to do, but not so good if it alters the feel from the fitting to the finished product.

 

Be interested to read some more opinions.

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DTG Turner H-1 4/5/7 woods

Titleist AP1 irons

TM Tour Preferred wedges (50/54/58)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I found an article by Tom Wishon stating that you're OK with putting up to about 12 grams into the shaft (whether via powder or tip weight).  At 12 grams it DOES start to impact your swing characteristics.

 

I suspected at some point this had to be the case.  If you take it to absurd limits... say put a 50 gram tip weight into the shaft... there's no way that it would not impact how one would manipulate the club during the swing.

:ping-small:G410 plus driver,:taylormade-small:Aeroburner 3W, :cobra-small:F6 Baffler 
:callaway-small:XR 4, 5 hybrids
:titleist-small:2021 T300 6 - GW, SW irons
:callaway-small: Mack Daddy CB 58/12 wedge
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Alternates: Srixon ZX4 MKII irons

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  • 9 months later...

I put 70 gram Kuro Kage shafts in my 712 AP 1 irons -- A flex as I am 67 and had a shoulder injury.  (had stiff shafts) -- these feel way too light, even with light grips.  Should I put lead tape on them?  Center of the club head at the bottom?  

 

Thanks...

"There is not such thing as a bad day on the golf course!"

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I put 70 gram Kuro Kage shafts in my 712 AP 1 irons -- A flex as I am 67 and had a shoulder injury.  (had stiff shafts) -- these feel way too light, even with light grips.  Should I put lead tape on them?  Center of the club head at the bottom?  

 

Thanks...

Have you checked to see what the  Swing-Weight of your re-shafted irons are ????

I would think if they are C8 to D4 , you're just fine !!

Swing-Weight is grossly mis-understood, the idea is to make all your irons feel & thus swing to feel.

I think it was Sam Snead, he could tell when 1 of his clubs was just 1 swing weight out of sync with the rest of his set..  There were & are many golfers who can tell [feel] the difference !!

A Big  "SEMPER~FI"  to all Marines on this site !!

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  • 4 weeks later...

I added lead tape as they were way too light...still not heavy enough.  Have gone back to Titleist 735's with Nippon shaft -- forged and much heavier.  Lost a club in distance but have regained feel.  I cannot handle light...obviously.

"There is not such thing as a bad day on the golf course!"

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As far as I'm concerned, lead tape is one of the best things ever invented.  It's not expensive, it can be used on any club without having to pull it apart, it's easy to use, the desired swingweight can be achieved easily, and if you change your mind it can be peeled off without damaging the finish of the clubhead.  There are some guys who don't like it because of the way it looks.  They want their irons to look "stock", and they feel lead tape looks junky.

 

This is why club manufacturers use tip weights...it's a way to add weight when needed and keep it hidden.  This maintains a clean look.  Many players are surprised or upset when they find out their expensive new set of irons were built with tip weights, and that it is an indication their club heads were not manufactured to high standards.  Keep in mind that due to manufacturing tolerances, iron heads can vary +/- in weight by several grams, and the same goes for grips.  

 

Given the choice, I'd rather use lead tape applied across the back of the head rather than in the hosel.  I know there is some debate on how much the weight position affects performance, but I'll throw my thoughts into the ring on this...I think it does take a lot of weight to change the location of the center of gravity, but not as much to affect the ball flight.  I have also used powder down the shaft (lead powder & tungsten powder) but this is my least preferred method.  If you have powdered  weight sitting on top of a hosel  and it stretches 5-6" up the shaft, the ball flight would have to be different than if that weight was moved to behind the sweet spot.                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

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I just added tip weights to all of my irons and wedges to get close to desired swing weight, then finished off with lead tape on the heads to get it dead on.  Feels great and did what I wanted.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Going back to the original post,

I believe you are asking two separate questions.

1) Swing weight what is it/ where to add weight and

2) what's with moving weight around on/in the head.

 

Swing weight IMO is a measurement from a scale that can show you the consistency of your build. Most golfers cant feel a 1-3 SW pt change. Although there are some that are sensitive to it they are in the minority. For the OEM it can be used as a marketing tool and a QA tool. Advertising the D-2 or D-4 Sw in the spec and then doing QA checks to make sure they are making a consistent product.  now for the first answer, adding a tip weight is more cosmetic appealing meaning you can't see it. However if you don't have the facilities or time then using lead tape to gain your "feel" will have to do. Which leads into the next question

 

Moving weight around in the club head itself can impact the way the head is delivered into the ball. This has been going on since the wood wood era. when drilling holes and placing weights or molten lead in them and covered with the sole plate. Now the larger companies have movable weights on the heads. How much needs moved to truly impact the change? There is the million $$ question. Golfers are a unique in that the slightest change say in appearance at address can affect the way a club is swung. All things created equal I would say you have to move at least 10-12g to get some sort of real change. up down, left or right. 

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Irons - 5-pw, GW stnd length 5.0 flex same grip 1 deg flat. Type low medium offset cavity back, no diggers

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Going back to the original post,

I believe you are asking two separate questions.

1) Swing weight what is it/ where to add weight and

2) what's with moving weight around on/in the head.

 

Swing weight IMO is a measurement from a scale that can show you the consistency of your build. Most golfers cant feel a 1-3 SW pt change. Although there are some that are sensitive to it they are in the minority. For the OEM it can be used as a marketing tool and a QA tool. Advertising the D-2 or D-4 Sw in the spec and then doing QA checks to make sure they are making a consistent product.  now for the first answer, adding a tip weight is more cosmetic appealing meaning you can't see it. However if you don't have the facilities or time then using lead tape to gain your "feel" will have to do. Which leads into the next question

 

Moving weight around in the club head itself can impact the way the head is delivered into the ball. This has been going on since the wood wood era. when drilling holes and placing weights or molten lead in them and covered with the sole plate. Now the larger companies have movable weights on the heads. How much needs moved to truly impact the change? There is the million $$ question. Golfers are a unique in that the slightest change say in appearance at address can affect the way a club is swung. All things created equal I would say you have to move at least 10-12g to get some sort of real change. up down, left or right. 

12g is what Tom Wishon suggested was the limit as well. 12g and above in the shaft tip WILL move the center of gravity.

:ping-small:G410 plus driver,:taylormade-small:Aeroburner 3W, :cobra-small:F6 Baffler 
:callaway-small:XR 4, 5 hybrids
:titleist-small:2021 T300 6 - GW, SW irons
:callaway-small: Mack Daddy CB 58/12 wedge
Axis1 Rose putter

Alternates: Srixon ZX4 MKII irons

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I added lead tape as they were way too light...still not heavy enough.  Have gone back to Titleist 735's with Nippon shaft -- forged and much heavier.  Lost a club in distance but have regained feel.  I cannot handle light...obviously.

 

 

... If you have been playing awhile and used to a certain weight an balance in your irons, it is very difficult for most to go to very light shafts as it throws of the static weight and balance so tempo can suffer. As I grew older I went from 130gm graphite irons shafts to 105, then 100 and finally 95. I tried VS Proto 85gm shafts and they are just too light and adding enough weight to the head changed the overall balance and feel, so my tempo really suffered. If you are still inclined, I would suggest you try a 95gm graphite iron shaft and you may find some additional distance and a much better feel as well as protecting your shoulder. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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