Cheaters on Tour

[dang3rtown]

Bottom line, if you're out there to have fun, do what it takes to have fun. If you're playing in a tournament, you follow the rules or you don't play in tournaments.

[revkev]

Bottom line, if you're out there to have fun, do what it takes to have fun. If you're playing in a tournament, you follow the rules or you don't play in tournaments.

Yes although an earlier poster made the point about putting them out to be ready for tournament play - I'm old enough that I've putted them out enough so that I really can go back and forth just fine. Some people can't.

 

Back to those occasions when we are playing by the rules do guys really cheat that blatantly and frequently - I'm stunned- totally stunned by that revelation. I don't ever recall catching someone out and out cheating in a club or city type championship.

 

I've been accused of it twice - both times regarding practice between holes. My accusers were wrong both times. That's why I carry a rule book.

 

 

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[gaussman1]

Billy Mayfair has been the name for years and years

 

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[Espo]

Imagine if everyone cheated the game would no longer be fun. Impossible to compete because you would be trying to outcheat your opponent. Why have a handicap system? Everyone could play even if you cheat your way to the finish. When you are playing on a Calcutta for your member guest or member member it would be very disturbing to think you threw away hundreds of dollars because people chose to cheat and steal your money.

 

 

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[revkev]

Imagine if everyone cheated the game would no longer be fun. Impossible to compete because you would be trying to outcheat your opponent. Why have a handicap system? Everyone could play even if you cheat your way to the finish. When you are playing on a Calcutta for your member guest or member member it would be very disturbing to think you threw away hundreds of dollars because people chose to cheat and steal your money.

 

 

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Well there's cheating and there's cheating. So you have some who improve their lie or don't call that penalty that only they could know about. I'm guessing it's a ridiculously small amount on tour and even among AMs although after this thread I'm starting to wonder.

 

There are also those who cheat on their handicaps by not entering all their scores or purposely tanking some rounds.

 

That's cheating too. A number of years ago we had these two guys in our Men's club that were the later type of cheater. I got one of them as my C player in a Calcutta. He shot 76 as a 16 in a tournament where only three guys broke 80 - I was one of the other 2. We won by a godzillion. I felt so guilty that after taking my family to dinner I gave the rest of my winnings to the club's tree fund. He and his buddy were asked to leave the club.

 

 

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[TBT]

Most of my MGA tournaments we play 18 inch gimmes....who cares

[downlowkey]

Most of my MGA tournaments we play 18 inch gimmes....who cares

If you're posting scores that include a whole mess of gimmes, the USGA handicap committee cares. And so do I for that matter.

[Undershooter]

If you're posting scores that include a whole mess of gimmes, the USGA handicap committee cares. And so do I for that matter.

Let him have them. Just means he's screwing himself on his handicap in legit stroke play. 

[downlowkey]

Let him have them. Just means he's screwing himself on his handicap in legit stroke play.

I concur TBT's handicap correlation coefficient will skew in an unenviable direction. But to me, the whole notion of gimmes is abhorrent. For the great majority of golfers, as proximity to the hole decreases, their ego potential subsequently increases. In modern society, opportunities to test your individual grit are becoming fewer. I can't understand why anyone chooses to cheat themselves out of the unique lesson in effort vs outcome presented by the '3 footer'. Golf is like an onion and in addition to returning a legitimate score, playing by _all the rules_ exposes more of the valuable layers this game has to offer.

[Rickp]

My buds with whom I regularly play and I understand that local rules can be established. Heck, even the pros will play lift, clean and place on a wet course. So we have established our own set of local rules so to speak. If one's ball lies is a divot, we consider it ground under repair. All stakes are either red or yellow, there are no white stakes. We understand that at the venues we play, bunkers are not always properly raked. If one's ball is in a footprint for example, one can rake the bunker and replace the ball. We have what we label the endangerment rule, if your ball lies in an area where your club can be damaged or the player can be physically hurt, the endangerment rule applies ( drop without penalty at the nearest point of relief).

Never heard the "endangerment rule" but I like it.

 

 

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[robertson153]

I think most of us on here agree. We all seem to fluff our ball in the rough, move away from rocks and roots, move from directly behind a tree(so your follow through doesn't hit the tree), etc. I play for fun because I love the game. If it were my "job" (PGA) it's a different story.

 

 

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[Zylem]

I think most of us on here agree. We all seem to fluff our ball in the rough, move away from rocks and roots, move from directly behind a tree(so your follow through doesn't hit the tree), etc. I play for fun because I love the game. If it were my "job" (PGA) it's a different story.

 

 

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I agree, I am not going to risk breaking a wrist or worse a club due to a tree root. It's kind of an unspoken rule in our group. And we don't move the ball to a spot that's closer to the hole.

 

If the ball is behind a tree though your coming out sideways lol.

 

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[Rickp]

I agree, I am not going to risk breaking a wrist or worse a club due to a tree root. It's kind of an unspoken rule in our group. And we don't move the ball to a spot that's closer to the hole.

 

If the ball is behind a tree though your coming out sideways lol.

 

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If your behind a tree coming out sideways, no closer to the hole and costs u a stroke.

Everyone that's plays with us is at least 65 years old min oldest guy 82. The last thing we want is for one of these guys to get hurt. Especially me.

Seriously we won't let anyone take a dangerous shot.

 

 

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[Zylem]

If your behind a tree coming out sideways, no closer to the hole and costs u a stroke.

Everyone that's plays with us is at least 65 years old min oldest guy 82. The last thing we want is for one of these guys to get hurt. Especially me.

Seriously we won't let anyone take a dangerous shot.

 

 

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Exactly, we are out there just to have fun and enjoy the time with friends. If everyone is given that same opportunities I don't see it as cheating. We do honor all rules when playing in tournaments tho.

 

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[Rickp]

Exactly, we are out there just to have fun and enjoy the time with friends. If everyone is given that same opportunities I don't see it as cheating. We do honor all rules when playing in tournaments tho.

 

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We stopped playing for any real money a few years ago. There might be a a small side bet occasionally nothing serious. If there's s rule situation they work it out easily. It's all fun.

 

 

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[Zylem]

We stopped playing for any real money a few years ago. There might be a a small side bet occasionally nothing serious. If there's s rule situation they work it out easily. It's all fun.

 

 

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We still play for five dollars a side. But it become more of a pride bet. Our handicaps are pretty honest so it's always a close game. I think we've passed the same five dollar bills around for the last three months.

 

It's what you said though it's all for fun.

 

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[sixcat]

Billy Mayfair has had an ominous gray cloud hanging over his head for two decades!  There is a reason the guys on Tour call him #WillyPlayfair

https://www.golf.com/news/2019/11/12/billy-mayfair-disqualification-champions-tour/

 

[fixyurdivot]

On 6/10/2017 at 7:17 AM, Shankster said:

If I cheat it's because I'm not hitting my ball off a cart path, out of a crater, up against a giant pine tree, in rocks... I try to avoid this stuff, but I'm not going to take a chance of ruining my clubs. If I am keeping score for handicap I play by the rules, but if I'm out with my dad just having fun. Who cares.

+1.  I'll worry and lose sleep over golf rules when I'm on tour.  Meanwhile, I'll selfishly guard myself and my new irons and woods like a Canadian goose protecting her nest.   I do agree with @PlaidJacketthat this kind of crapola from GD is journalism junk... purely a childish attempt to drum up controversy and sell subscriptions.

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

+1.  I'll worry and lose sleep over golf rules when I'm on tour.  Meanwhile, I'll selfishly guard myself and my new irons and woods like a Canadian goose protecting her nest.   I do agree with @PlaidJacketthat this kind of crapola from GD is journalism junk... purely a childish attempt to drum up controversy and sell subscriptions.

That's the job of Golf Digest, to draw eyeballs so they can sell advertising so they can make money.  I'd love to require more from them, but money IS their goal.  Without people reading the magazine, they're out of work.

As for rules, and protecting equipment, we always have the option of taking unplayable lie relief.  Yeah, we don't like taking the penalty strokes, but its possible to play within the rules and still protect our equipment.

But the stuff on the professional tours, that's a bad look.  Mayfair's responses in interviews, contradicting himself on a number of points, claiming "virtue" for penalizing himself only after he's caught on video, the LPGA Q-school stuff, and people saying that signalling club selections between caddies is rampant, going back to  Lexi's moving the ball on the putting green and not accepting responsibility, its all pretty contradictory to the image that golf would like to present, as a game of integrity.

[Mr. 82]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

That's the job of Golf Digest, to draw eyeballs so they can sell advertising so they can make money.  I'd love to require more from them, but money IS their goal.  Without people reading the magazine, they're out of work.

As for rules, and protecting equipment, we always have the option of taking unplayable lie relief.  Yeah, we don't like taking the penalty strokes, but its possible to play within the rules and still protect our equipment.

But the stuff on the professional tours, that's a bad look.  Mayfair's responses in interviews, contradicting himself on a number of points, claiming "virtue" for penalizing himself only after he's caught on video, the LPGA Q-school stuff, and people saying that signalling club selections between caddies is rampant, going back to  Lexi's moving the ball on the putting green and not accepting responsibility, its all pretty contradictory to the image that golf would like to present, as a game of integrity.

I've taken a different philosophy recently with regards to unplayable lies and playing by the rules by the strictest adherence.  It provides me with a true handicap and is useful come tournament time when I HAVE to count all strokes and take penalties for unplayables, and especially putt everything out.

How many people out there, even those who play by the rules, take gimmes inside of 2 feet of the hole?  You'd be surprised how many times people will miss these putts.  This year specifically I have stopped giving myself putts, and even when someone says, "it's good, pick it up." to me I'll still putt it out.  I mean, unless it's within 6 inches of the hole, I'll putt it out even in a casual round.

Let me make it clear that I am not sandbagging, but I count everything in even a casual round.  I've discovered that unless I play by the rules then I'll get murdered in tournaments.  I'd much rather play strictly by the rules all of the time, that way when I am under tournament conditions I don't notice any difference in the way I am playing the game.  If anything, when I am in a tournament now, I feel much less pressure during the round and just go out and play, mostly because there is no difference between my casual rounds and that tournament round.

All that said, I don't hold others to these standards in casual rounds.  If you want to give yourself a glory handicap, then more power to you.  You'll get murdered in a tournament, so that's on you.  One of my friends I played with last weekend decided to give himself putts and ignore penalty strokes on the last couple of holes.  I guess he preferred to record that 96 in the GHIN system, versus the 101.  I have no problem letting him do it either, because I know he has no shot of beating anyone in a net tournament.

[tony@CIC]

24 minutes ago, GSwag said:

I've taken a different philosophy recently with regards to unplayable lies and playing by the rules by the strictest adherence.  It provides me with a true handicap and is useful come tournament time when I HAVE to count all strokes and take penalties for unplayables, and especially putt everything out.

How many people out there, even those who play by the rules, take gimmes inside of 2 feet of the hole?  You'd be surprised how many times people will miss these putts.  This year specifically I have stopped giving myself putts, and even when someone says, "it's good, pick it up." to me I'll still putt it out.  I mean, unless it's within 6 inches of the hole, I'll putt it out even in a casual round.

Let me make it clear that I am not sandbagging, but I count everything in even a casual round.  I've discovered that unless I play by the rules then I'll get murdered in tournaments.  I'd much rather play strictly by the rules all of the time, that way when I am under tournament conditions I don't notice any difference in the way I am playing the game.  If anything, when I am in a tournament now, I feel much less pressure during the round and just go out and play, mostly because there is no difference between my casual rounds and that tournament round.

All that said, I don't hold others to these standards in casual rounds.  If you want to give yourself a glory handicap, then more power to you.  You'll get murdered in a tournament, so that's on you.  One of my friends I played with last weekend decided to give himself putts and ignore penalty strokes on the last couple of holes.  I guess he preferred to record that 96 in the GHIN system, versus the 101.  I have no problem letting him do it either, because I know he has no shot of beating anyone in a net tournament.

Good points. By not taking the strokes you're really fooling yourself. On the gimme putts. I do take the gimme - but then I'll announce that I'm taking a practice putt and will putt it out. I generally make the gimme but that's probably because there's no pressure. . Oh and as an FYI - in our men's league the unwritten rule is you have to hole out for par or better since we have skins money on the line.

[Quigleyd]

I never cheat. I just play by a different set of rules... My own. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:00 PM, Rickp said:

Seriously we won't let anyone take a dangerous shot.

Footjoy wedge... but go easy, the backspin can be crazy at times .

[Rickp]

Footjoy wedge... but go easy, the backspin can be crazy at times .

Especially with the sidespin


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[revkev]

I do have a comment on gimme's - I play in two leagues - one is straight forward stroke play, rules of golf, play everything down, putt everything out.  The only variation to that would be a local rule that if it is cart path only there is lift clean and place on balls in the fairway - that is extremely rare and often leads to controversy as we have guys going out from noon to 5:00 PM - In Florida in the summer you can have a deluge at 2:30 for half an hour, the course becomes playable again at 3:30 but now its Cart Path only on a totally different course from the one the guys played earlier.  At any rate you get the point that this is strict rules of golf - even if you are on a root your option is to play it as it lies or take an unplayable.

 

The other is match play that allows for rolling the ball in the fairway, moving the ball from a root (with opponents approval) and since it's match play, gimmes.  The Ryder Cup has gimmes.  If you play match play they happen and anyone who has played golf for a while recognizes that there is a difference between needing to make a 3 footer for par and putting it after it has been given.  Once its inside of your normal 50/50 and it is given you have no choice but to record that score on the card.  On the other hand if your opponent concedes the hole you are supposed to estimate what you would expect to make on the hole for handicap purposes.  More than likely though you are going to get stuck with whatever whoever is keeping score puts down for you.

There are plenty of people that I know who play most of their golf as match play - they aren't trying to cheat or have a vanity handicap - they have little choice in the matter.

 

 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

The other is match play that allows for rolling the ball in the fairway, moving the ball from a root (with opponents approval) and since it's match play, gimmes.  The Ryder Cup has gimmes.  If you play match play they happen and anyone who has played golf for a while recognizes that there is a difference between needing to make a 3 footer for par and putting it after it has been given.  Once its inside of your normal 50/50 and it is given you have no choice but to record that score on the card.  On the other hand if your opponent concedes the hole you are supposed to estimate what you would expect to make on the hole for handicap purposes. 

A kind if side note, the estimation of most likely score will change with the new World Handicap System.  New guidelines will be to assume one putt from 5 feet or less, 2 to 3 strokes from 5 feet to 20 yards, 3 to 4 putts from longer.:

https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Booklet_10_28.pdf

[THEZIPR23]

2 hours ago, revkev said:

I do have a comment on gimme's - I play in two leagues - one is straight forward stroke play, rules of golf, play everything down, putt everything out.  The only variation to that would be a local rule that if it is cart path only there is lift clean and place on balls in the fairway - that is extremely rare and often leads to controversy as we have guys going out from noon to 5:00 PM - In Florida in the summer you can have a deluge at 2:30 for half an hour, the course becomes playable again at 3:30 but now its Cart Path only on a totally different course from the one the guys played earlier.  At any rate you get the point that this is strict rules of golf - even if you are on a root your option is to play it as it lies or take an unplayable.

 

The other is match play that allows for rolling the ball in the fairway, moving the ball from a root (with opponents approval) and since it's match play, gimmes.  The Ryder Cup has gimmes.  If you play match play they happen and anyone who has played golf for a while recognizes that there is a difference between needing to make a 3 footer for par and putting it after it has been given.  Once its inside of your normal 50/50 and it is given you have no choice but to record that score on the card.  On the other hand if your opponent concedes the hole you are supposed to estimate what you would expect to make on the hole for handicap purposes.  More than likely though you are going to get stuck with whatever whoever is keeping score puts down for you.

There are plenty of people that I know who play most of their golf as match play - they aren't trying to cheat or have a vanity handicap - they have little choice in the matter.

 

 

I would agree with this as far as league/tourney play goes. I play with the same 3 guys every Saturday, it is match play. They take their fair share of gimmes. And they do themselves a huge disservice. If they putted everything out they would all go up 2-3 strokes in their handicap. When I first started playing with them they asked my advice as far as what they should do with this. It was a point of contention and I told them to putt everything out. It eliminates everything that comes into question. They didn't take my advice and still basically take the putts they want.

My point is that there are differences between league/tourney play and regular play even when both are match play. 

[THEZIPR23]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

A kind if side note, the estimation of most likely score will change with the new World Handicap System.  New guidelines will be to assume one putt from 5 feet or less, 2 to 3 strokes from 5 feet to 20 yards, 3 to 4 putts from longer.:

https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Booklet_10_28.pdf

Doesn't apply to just putts. If over 5 feet it includes putts, chips or even full shots from 20 yards or longer. 

Why would they introduce this? And who decides what allotment of strokes to be applied? 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Doesn't apply to just putts. If over 5 feet it includes putts, chips or even full shots from 20 yards or longer. 

Why would they introduce this? And who decides what allotment of strokes to be applied? 

I knew my post was a little off-topic, and lest we go even further off, I'll put my comments in here. 

Spoiler

Under the old rules, the only guideline was that we should each use our best judgement as to the most likely score.  I'm sure that was abused, in both directions, so now we have some recommended criteria.  I know for certain I've had some guys say "I gave you that 20-footer for a 4, so you'll turn in 4 for handicap".  Totally wrong, but that's what many people thought should happen.

And I'm not sure what you meant by this

"And who decides what allotment of strokes to be applied? "  You may be referring to the Handicap allocations, which will be a percentage of your Course Handicap, based on the format of the competition you're playing.

If we want to continue this, we can move to a more appropriate thread

[BIG STU]

On 6/13/2017 at 1:27 PM, TheWahoo said:

My buds with whom I regularly play and I understand that local rules can be established.  Heck, even the pros will play lift, clean and place on a wet course.   So we have established our own set of local rules so to speak.   If one's ball lies is a divot, we consider it ground under repair.  All stakes are either red or yellow, there are no white stakes.  We understand that at the venues we play, bunkers are not always properly raked.   If one's ball is in a footprint for example, one can rake the bunker and replace the ball.   We have what we label the endangerment rule, if your ball lies in an area where your club can be damaged or the player can be physically hurt, the endangerment rule applies ( drop without penalty at the nearest point of relief).   

That is exactly how it should be done in casual fun play---- Most courses here due to the abundance of pine trees and sandy soil have a local root rule. In the interest of speeding up tourism play most hazards ( oops penalty areas) are marked as a lateral and most drop zones are on the green side of the penalty area.  Some courses even have it stated again in "local rules" that OB shall be played as a lateral drop. I do not play comps any more and play for fun and have absolutely no problem with modification of the rules as long as everyone is cool with it