In desperate need of putting help

[tony@CIC]

I'm looking for a good online or other video program on putting. For some reason my putting really deteriorated this year (I'm 3 & 4 putting most holes). As background I did get fitted for my putter and I have used the Ping putting app (with cradle). My instructor recently moved about 12 hrs. away to South Carolina so I'm out of luck there.

 

Additionally I do get great information from the Ping app - just don't know what to do with it. Also I need to analyze whether I'm not reading the greens correctly or it's a function of putting stroke.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

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[cnosil]

Are you unable to work with your current instructor? I have an instructor that I have never met in person and do everything through email and YouTube videos.

 

What are the symptoms of your problem? What is your approach?

[tony@CIC]

Are you unable to work with your current instructor? I have an instructor that I have never met in person and do everything through email and YouTube videos.

 

What are the symptoms of your problem? What is your approach?

The issue is a combination of distance (leaving them short/ long) and direction (missing left and right of the hole). I know part of the problem now is caused by lack of confidence so I'm second guessing everything.

 

I have used the Ping putting app and it's giving me very specific data I just don't know what to do with it - for example 'closing angle' is 13.5, tempo is 1.8. I wish there was a manual on the ideal #'s.

 

FYI the recommendation from about 20 sets of putting drills is a strong arc and I have a putter that accommodates that style. So the original putter fitting was accurate.

 

 

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[bluesmandan76]

13.5* is extremely high. This is from 10 feet right? If this wad from 10 feet, then tell me, what is the length of your backstroke for a ten foot putt, and what is the length of your follow through?

 

 

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[tony@CIC]

13.5* is extremely high. This is from 10 feet right? If this wad from 10 feet, then tell me, what is the length of your backstroke for a ten foot putt, and what is the length of your follow through?

 

 

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The ping app shows it as a total of 850ms. Back is 542ms and forward is 308ms

 

 

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[bluesmandan76]

The ping app shows it as a total of 850ms. Back is 542ms and forward is 308ms

 

 

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Sorry, I meant in inches.

 

 

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[cnosil]

The issue is a combination of distance (leaving them short/ long) and direction (missing left and right of the hole). I know part of the problem now is caused by lack of confidence so I'm second guessing everything.

 

I have used the Ping putting app and it's giving me very specific data I just don't know what to do with it - for example 'closing angle' is 13.5, tempo is 1.8. I wish there was a manual on the ideal #'s.

 

FYI the recommendation from about 20 sets of putting drills is a strong arc and I have a putter that accommodates that style. So the original putter fitting was accurate.

 

In putting there really isn't anything that is an ideal number.   Ideal numbers are what works best for you and what you can do repeatedly.  The 13.5 means you have a lot of rotation in your putter.  The putting tempo may be a bit slow,  but as long as you are consistent across all length putts it isn't bad.  2.0 is average but putting stroke typically range from 1.4 to 2.5.

 

Second guessing and continually making adjustments is part of the problem.   Need to focus on a consistent stroke and starting the ball online.  My suggestion would be to roll the ball over a dime about 16" in front of a ball and see if you can determine a consistent miss or if you roll the ball over the dime.   Don't need a hole,  just work on rolling the ball over the dime.    

 

Distance issues could be that you are continually adjusting based on your miss.  If your putt goes left you have a closed face which means it may go long.  Leave the face open and it ends up short.  

[null]

Go read Stockton's Unconscious Putting. Immediately.

[BigGar]

Go read Stockton's Unconscious Putting. Immediately.

This. It will completely reset your mind. It worked wonders for me when I was struggling with the flat stick.

[hckymeyer]

If you boil it down there are only 2 parts to putting.  Distance and aim.  There are 2 parts to aim though, being able to hit the ball where you intended, and being able to read where you should intend to hit it.

 

cnosil's dime drill is a great way to determine if you are hitting the ball where you intended.  Another would be to find a flat 10' putt and see how many you can make and if your miss is has overall left or right tendency.

 

For distance control don't putt to a hole.  Lay a piece of string down and hit 20' putts and try to stop the ball on the string.  Don't worry about the line, only the pace.  Are you able to get within a foot?  6 inches? You can do this at different lengths and start to get a feel for how hard to hit each length putt.

 

With those 2 out of the way it comes down to green reading.  I can't really help you much with that one, but I've heard really good things about Aimpoint.

[yungkory]

Go read Stockton's Unconscious Putting. Immediately.

 

Just picked this up with Google Play credit I've been accumulating from doing surveys they send to my phone every other day or so. Thanks for the suggestion!

[null]

Just picked this up with Google Play credit I've been accumulating from doing surveys they send to my phone every other day or so. Thanks for the suggestion!

Completely simplified and changed my approach to putting.

 

Unconscious Scoring did the same for my chipping and pitching

[bluesmandan76]

The ping app shows it as a total of 850ms. Back is 542ms and forward is 308ms

 

 

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The reason i asked for length (in inches, not seconds) is that i have found degrees of rotation to correspond to backstroke length. A good putting stroke should have a relatively short backstroke and a follow through that is 2-3x the length of the backstroke. A "bad" putting stroke has an excessively long backstroke, which results in a lot of rotation and a deceleration through impact. This is usually accompanied with a short follow through but not always.

 

Excessive rotation means you can't consistently square up the face at impact. And deceleration at impact means you can't control speed. 13.5* is excessive for a 10' putt, so i would guess you have a backstroke of 12" or more, when it should be 8" or less. A shorter backstroke prevents excessive rotation and promotes acceleration through impact.

 

How short is too short? You have to find the length that promotes even acceleration and smooth delivery. Too short will produce an abrupt and unstable transition with sharp acceleration and inaccurate distance control.

 

Start with a too short backstroke that forces an awkward acceleration, then try strokes adding one inch at a time until you feel it smooth out. Keep adding to your backstroke and eventually you'll get to a point where you have to decelerate through impact.

 

A recent putting lab study shows that tour players typically have a follow through that is twice the length of the backstroke. And I've also read that you will never be a great putter until you get that putter face rotation down to around 5*. A short backstroke - the shorter the better - with smooth transition and even acceleration through impact.

 

 

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[chisag]

... As someone that gave away a free putting lesson with a 6 package lesson deal I can tell you that far and away the #1 culprit for bad putting was the anxiety of trying to make the putt. It manifests in different forms but the results were all similar. The biggest key for my students was learning to not care if they made their putts and concentrate on the process instead. Trying to guide the ball in the hole causes many problems from tension to flipping the putter head to poor distance control/direction.  

... Obviously there is a lot that goes into successful putting including the ability to read the line, stroke the ball on the correct line and using the correct speed or that line. But the first thing I would recommend is forget the line and only concentrate on speed. One of the drills I found helpful is my 6 ball drill where you hit a first putt to a specific distance, usually the edge of the collar but anything works other than the hole, and then putt the next 5 balls attempting to have them stop 1 foot short each time. Do this on flat, uphill, downhill, straight and breaking putts. It will give you a much better feel if your distance control is erratic. 

... Back to actual putting. Once you read the line from behind the ball, completely forget it as your brain will take care of it and just concentrate on the speed. I am a die putter so I like mine to stop around the hole but if you are a finish 18' past the hole, which is really ideal, concentrate on that speed. Again, concentrate of the stroke and speed which relieves the anxiety over trying to make the putt go in the hole and just trust the outcome. Most of my students couldn't believe they made more putts when they weren't trying to make putts. 

[cnosil]

Excessive rotation means you can't consistently square up the face at impact. And deceleration at impact means you can't control speed. 13.5* is excessive for a 10' putt, so i would guess you have a backstroke of 12" or more, when it should be 8" or less. A shorter backstroke prevents excessive rotation and promotes acceleration through impact.

 

 

I have to disagree with this.  The amount of total rotation doesn't relate to position at impact and length is dependent on the speed you move the putter.  

 

Tiger woods SAM Puttlab rotation numbers:  he is open 7.8* at the end of his backswing and 12.2* closed at the end of his forwardswing for a total rotation of 20*

 

Loren Roberts:  1.8* open at end of backswing and 8.6* closed at end of forward swing for a total rotation of 10.1* 

 

Each is individual to the person.  Each person is individual and it comes done to how consistently you are able to repeat those numbers.  If you are consistent,  you can master speed and direction.  Rotation is based on setup position.  If you are farther off the ball you will have a bigger arc and naturally more rotation that a person that is closer to the ball with a smaller arc.  

[cnosil]

... Back to actual putting. Once you read the line from behind the ball, completely forget it as your brain will take care of it and just concentrate on the speed. 

 

I like your approach.  However, all people are different,  we learn differently and process information differently.  Was involved in an interesting discussion comparing linear and non linear thought processes.  Some people need to think line and some people need to think speed and it is up the individual to figure out what works for the,.

[bluesmandan76]

I have to disagree with this. The amount of total rotation doesn't relate to position at impact and length is dependent on the speed you move the putter.

 

Tiger woods SAM Puttlab rotation numbers: he is open 7.8* at the end of his backswing and 12.2* closed at the end of his forwardswing for a total rotation of 20*

 

Loren Roberts: 1.8* open at end of backswing and 8.6* closed at end of forward swing for a total rotation of 10.1*

 

Each is individual to the person. Each person is individual and it comes done to how consistently you are able to repeat those numbers. If you are consistent, you can master speed and direction. Rotation is based on setup position. If you are farther off the ball you will have a bigger arc and naturally more rotation that a person that is closer to the ball with a smaller arc.

I don't care about total rotation--just the amount of rotation that happens in the backstroke. You can claim "individuality" all you want (and too many internet posters do!) but it is just logic -- the longer the backstroke and the more rotation that occurs, the harder it is to square up the face at impact.

 

 

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[Pappyvanroyl]

For hitting the correct line, nothing has helped me more than Dirty Larry Golf's Navigator. When I first got it, it revealed that what I saw as a square clubface was actually open 1-2 degrees, so I would miss right on the first hole then left after overcorrecting, and on and on. Now I ALWAYS hit my correct line. Now it's just down to making the right read for break and speed which comes with practice on the greens. Can't recommend the Navigator enough. It was the first "training aid" I've ever bought.

 

 

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[chisag]

I like your approach.  However, all people are different,  we learn differently and process information differently.  Was involved in an interesting discussion comparing linear and non linear thought processes.  Some people need to think line and some people need to think speed and it is up the individual to figure out what works for the,.

 

 

... So true and it is why I would have to explain things different ways until it clicked with a student. Many asking "Why didn't you say that to begin with?" And my reply was along the lines of I did, 6 different ways but the 7th is what made sense to you. I understand we all have idiosyncrasies but the line is already imprinted once we decide what that line is. I have used this many times but walking down a path we don't watch our feet make each step. We look ahead and our brain tells us where to put our feet as it already has that information and is looking ahead. The brain can only concentrate on one thing at a time, so once you have the line, forget it actively and concentrate on the speed. 

 

... That said, ya never know what lurks in the mind of men and if actively concentrating on the line works for you and you are a good putter, then that is the way to go. But that is the rare player and not the norm. 

[Canucklehead]

Having just one thought while I was putting really helped. Once I placed my ball, lined up and stepped away to check, I stop thinking about anything to do with aim. Line up my putter with the ball and focus on the stroke. I didn't record puttingnumbers back then but probably knocked 5 per round off my score

 

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[chisag]

Having just one thought while I was putting really helped. Once I placed my ball, lined up and stepped away to check, I stop thinking about anything to do with aim. Line up my putter with the ball and focus on the stroke. I didn't record puttingnumbers back then but probably knocked 5 per round off my score

 

 

... Good stuff! It is amazing to watch players move their head and sometimes entire upper body on a short putt. They are focusing on making the putt and not making the stroke. One of my sons 26 yr old friend just can't help himself. I will stand over him and hold his head in place and he makes good strokes. As soon as I remove my hand and it is a real putt? He goes right back to moving everything yet furious when he pulls or pushes a 2 footer. 

[TWar]

There is probably a ton of great info here.

 

My 2cents. Head to the practice green put a tee in the ground, stroke 10'ers only looking at the hole. Get a feel. Don't worry about line, or hitting the ball. Don't worry about numbers etc. make nice easy strokes.

 

This has helped me.

 

 

 

 

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[cnosil]

I don't care about total rotation--just the amount of rotation that happens in the backstroke. You can claim "individuality" all you want (and too many internet posters do!) but it is just logic -- the longer the backstroke and the more rotation that occurs, the harder it is to square up the face at impact.

 

 

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He has only provided a total rotation number which is what iPing reports.    Yes,  it is true that the longer the backstroke the harder it is to square the face at impact and that a faster tempo is probably a bit better than a slower tempo,  but that isn't rotation that is length of stroke.  There are no exact numbers and an individual's setup will influence the amount of rotation.  A six inch backstroke for a player that sets up with eyes over the ball will have less rotation than a player that sets up with eyes inside the ball on the same six inch backstroke.  

 

Look at any players swing and putting stroke and there are individual traits that uniquely define there swing or stroke.  There is no single best way.  

[tony@CIC]

The reason i asked for length (in inches, not seconds) is that i have found degrees of rotation to correspond to backstroke length. A good putting stroke should have a relatively short backstroke and a follow through that is 2-3x the length of the backstroke. A "bad" putting stroke has an excessively long backstroke, which results in a lot of rotation and a deceleration through impact. This is usually accompanied with a short follow through but not always.

 

Excessive rotation means you can't consistently square up the face at impact. And deceleration at impact means you can't control speed. 13.5* is excessive for a 10' putt, so i would guess you have a backstroke of 12" or more, when it should be 8" or less. A shorter backstroke prevents excessive rotation and promotes acceleration through impact.

 

How short is too short? You have to find the length that promotes even acceleration and smooth delivery. Too short will produce an abrupt and unstable transition with sharp acceleration and inaccurate distance control.

 

Start with a too short backstroke that forces an awkward acceleration, then try strokes adding one inch at a time until you feel it smooth out. Keep adding to your backstroke and eventually you'll get to a point where you have to decelerate through impact.

 

A recent putting lab study shows that tour players typically have a follow through that is twice the length of the backstroke. And I've also read that you will never be a great putter until you get that putter face rotation down to around 5*. A short backstroke - the shorter the better - with smooth transition and even acceleration through impact.

 

 

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Hmm that is interesting - and yes your correct in your assessment. I do have a long backstroke and relatively short follow-through (compared to the backstroke). I'll work on your recommendation next week.

 

 

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[tony@CIC]

Go read Stockton's Unconscious Putting. Immediately.

Thanks I'll be buying this book as well

 

 

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[bluesmandan76]

I have to disagree with this. The amount of total rotation doesn't relate to position at impact and length is dependent on the speed you move the putter.

 

Tiger woods SAM Puttlab rotation numbers: he is open 7.8* at the end of his backswing and 12.2* closed at the end of his forwardswing for a total rotation of 20*

 

Loren Roberts: 1.8* open at end of backswing and 8.6* closed at end of forward swing for a total rotation of 10.1*

 

Each is individual to the person. Each person is individual and it comes done to how consistently you are able to repeat those numbers. If you are consistent, you can master speed and direction. Rotation is based on setup position. If you are farther off the ball you will have a bigger arc and naturally more rotation that a person that is closer to the ball with a smaller arc.

I think it should be pointed out that iping does not measure the same way as sam. Iping measures the amount that your putterhead closes from the end of your backswing until impact. This should roughly correspond to the amount you are rotating open during the backswing. Using the iping readout of 13.5* that means he is opening the clubface 13.5* during the backswing and trying to close it the same amount. (Though it is technically not measuring the backstroke rotation, only the downswing rotation til the point of impact). This is NOT the same thing as sam's total rotation. Hence my advice. 13.5* rotation from the start of your downswing until impact is way too much. Maybe this information will make my previous posts make more sense. We were not talking about the same measurements.

 

 

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[cnosil]

I think it should be pointed out that iping does not measure the same way as sam. Iping measures the amount that your putterhead closes from the end of your backswing until impact. This should roughly correspond to the amount you are rotating open during the backswing. Using the iping readout of 13.5* that means he is opening the clubface 13.5* during the backswing and trying to close it the same amount. (Though it is technically not measuring the backstroke rotation, only the downswing rotation til the point of impact). This is NOT the same thing as sam's total rotation. Hence my advice. 13.5* rotation from the start of your downswing until impact is way too much. Maybe this information will make my previous posts make more sense. We were not talking about the same measurements.

 

I stand corrected.  Everything i had seen was it was a measurement of forward stroke but after your post I found a couple of references to forward stroke to impact.  

[null]

Holy crap you are totally over thinking your putting stroke. Seriously, get Unconscious Putting immediately

[Rusty1885]

At the end of the day it's about seeing more putts drop. You need to work on your short putts. 2-3 footer is a good start definitely 4-6 footer. Don't worry about Iong lag putts.

 

You are probably practicing a lot of 10-15 footers and seeing a lot of misses. Good putting requires confidence strokes you can get that from sinking a lot of short putts. If you can roll the ball by hand to the hole you have enough distance control to make a good putt.

 

I stopped worrying about the stroke long time ago. As long as I can consistently roll the ball where I want it to go, who cares. You sink enough putts someone would find the way to explain your awesome stroke.

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

I'm not what you would a call a good putter, but I am improving. If I had all this information in my head while trying to putt, i wouldn't be able to putt a ball. Numbers are numbers, but the object is to putt the ball into the hole, if your thinking about opening and closing the face, short backswing long follow through, you aren't going to make anything. practice is how you get better, get out there and putt. There are literally thousands of ways to putt the ball, and none of them are wrong, find one that makes you feel comfortable and practice that way. This whole thing sounds to me like a a lot of overthinking the process, and not enough practice on the excecution.