STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 This happened in my match today and I've been discussing with my captains whether or not it's legal. I know it came up at The Open but I'm not sure what the formal ruling was. They're 2v2 matches. My opponent went well over the green and couldn't see the flag stick over a mound. His teammate stood where the proper landing spot would be while he hit his shot. As the ball came in, he moved so it wouldn't hit him. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that he stood there with the clear intent to line him up. They openly discussed it. 1. Is this legal or not? (please cite rulebook) 2. What repercussions do we have now that the match is over? Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigtazzGolf Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Without breaking out the book. I think they lose the match. I think they can help line up but have to move before the shot is taken similar two on the LPGA when the caddy lines them up on putts. BigTazz Grip in Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball! Grip n Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball In my staff bag King F7+ Mitsubishi Tensei CK Pro White 60 - Graphite Tour X-Stiff CBX 13.5 3 Wood Atomic Irons 4-AW (reviewing) CG16 Satin 52* 588 RTX 2.0 56* and 60* Sentio Sierra 101-M Putter Proud tester of the Tommy Armour ATOMIC Irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommc23 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 As what happened with Jordan at the open he had to have Greller move before the shot was even hit to avoid a penalty. He can stand there prior to the shot but that is it. And that was how it was explained to me. Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 I found rule 8-2. To me this seems clear but I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing. Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigtazzGolf Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Looks like you have a clear beef, but can anything be done now? Will it change the results? BigTazz Grip in Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball! Grip n Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball In my staff bag King F7+ Mitsubishi Tensei CK Pro White 60 - Graphite Tour X-Stiff CBX 13.5 3 Wood Atomic Irons 4-AW (reviewing) CG16 Satin 52* 588 RTX 2.0 56* and 60* Sentio Sierra 101-M Putter Proud tester of the Tommy Armour ATOMIC Irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1. Is this legal or not? (please cite rulebook) 2. What repercussions do we have now that the match is over? Based on rule 8-2 I would say it isn't legal. There is an exception that the flagstick can be attended or held up but that doesn't seem to be the case. See this video for example of it happening on PGA tour : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqKweki8Sxc Regarding your position now that the match is over is up to your committee. Probably should have been brought up on the hole with the other team or with the captains at the end of the match. Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 I said something to the person standing in place but a jet was flying over and he didn't hear me. I texted my captains during the match. Who would the "committee" be? There commissioner or the 4 captains? Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I said something to the person standing in place but a jet was flying over and he didn't hear me. I texted my captains during the match. Who would the "committee" be? There commissioner or the 4 captains? Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy I would say the league commissioner. While you said something during the incident, you should have said something after the plane passed. Penalty is loss of match. If it is a friendly league, probably best to let it go but give them the info to increase knowledge. Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Looks like you have a clear beef, but can anything be done now? Will it change the results? BigTazz Grip in Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball! Yes. I lost the match by 1 stroke and 1 hole. So I'd go from losing 2-0 to winning 1.5-.5 I hate to be "the guy who called that bs rule" but it IS the League Championship and this ruling swings us from being behind 5-3 to leading 4.5-3.5 Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigtazzGolf Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I'd sound the horn tonight to the powers that be and get them looking into it. BigTazz Grip in Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball! Grip n Rip it Chicks dig the LONG ball In my staff bag King F7+ Mitsubishi Tensei CK Pro White 60 - Graphite Tour X-Stiff CBX 13.5 3 Wood Atomic Irons 4-AW (reviewing) CG16 Satin 52* 588 RTX 2.0 56* and 60* Sentio Sierra 101-M Putter Proud tester of the Tommy Armour ATOMIC Irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Here you go...right from the book Penalty is loss of hole in match play ..I would call someone's attention to it tonight XR Driver Matrix Ozik 8m3 Black Tie Shaft King F7 3W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 5W UST Mamiya Chrome Elements 7F4 Shaft King F7 4 Hybrid Graphite Designs Tour AD-HY 95 Shaft PXG 0211 DC 5-PW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Shafts RTX ZIPCORE 50*,54*,58* UST Mamiya Recoil 95 Shafts Metal X Milled #7 with SuperStroke 2.0 grip MTB Twitter: @timldotson Instagram: timldotson Facebook: TimDotson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Here you go...right from the book 9715A2E2-3F07-4FDE-8C6D-6A6CA81645D1.png Penalty is loss of hole in match play ..I would call someone's attention to it tonight So I contacted my captains. They contacted the opposing captain who is being understandably resistant. I think they're both reluctant to take it to the commissioner. I'll wait and see what they do with it from here. If I was a captain, I'd push the issue but I'm not so I'll sit back and see how it plays out. Hopefully we have a decision before they tee off with the next 4 matches. Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 In addition to the rule cited, there's a requirement for timely notification for a claim: 2-5. Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and ClaimsIn match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. The Committee may consider a claim only if it has been made in a timely manner and if the player making the claim has notified his opponent at the time (i) that he is making a claim or wants a ruling and (ii) of the facts upon which the claim or ruling is to be based. A claim is considered to have been made in a timely manner if, upon discovery of circumstances giving rise to a claim, the player makes his claim (i) before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground, or (ii) in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green, or (iii) when the circumstances giving rise to the claim are discovered after all the players in the match have left the putting green of the final hole, before the result of the match has been officially announced. If you didn't notify your opponents in a timely manner, the committee should NOT consider the matter. Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Thanks Dave. I was trying to find a rule with that information but was unsuccessful. I should've said something right there but I didn't because I was unsure. I guess I just have to let it die. The road of life is littered with indecisive squirrels Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Thanks Dave. I was trying to find a rule with that information but was unsuccessful. I should've said something right there but I didn't because I was unsure. I guess I just have to let it die. Yeah, it would be wrong to push it, knowing that. However, you've set wheels in motion, it would be interesting to see if the various captains and commissioner know about that portion of the rule. Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 The matches today started at 1230 and I didn't hear anything about it prior. I guess that means the captains just let it go and will try to win it on the course. Could this decision have swung the match my way? Absolutely. Is it the reason I lost? No. I missed 4 short putts before this happened and then missed another on 18 that would've halved the match. I've got no one to blame but myself. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaidJacket Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Interesting this topic is up in the forum... Just today I received my Thursday email from Barryrhodes.com covering this exact question. If you're interested in rules check out his site. I enjoy it and you might too. My Sun Mountain bag currently includes: 771CSI 5i - PW and PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges EXS 10.5*, 929-HS FW4 16.5* Willimette w/GolfPride Contour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 Yeah, it would be wrong to push it, knowing that. However, you've set wheels in motion, it would be interesting to see if the various captains and commissioner know about that portion of the rule. I guess they just let it go since I didn't say anything during the match. The team kicked butt the next day so it became a moot point and saved us from some drama. That would've been something real heated if we won because the ruling decision tipped the scale in our favor. Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 IMG_5360.PNG I found rule 8-2. To me this seems clear but I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing. Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy Just had a thought on this. As I read the rule, I could help but think of pros using spectators behind the green to line up there shot. That person obviously isn't purposely lining the pros shot up, but it would seem this should fall under that rule. However, it's perfectly legal. Sent from my SM-G920V using MyGolfSpy mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Just had a thought on this. As I read the rule, I could help but think of pros using spectators behind the green to line up there shot. That person obviously isn't purposely lining the pros shot up, but it would seem this should fall under that rule. However, it's perfectly legal. Sent from my SM-G920V using MyGolfSpy mobile app I think the rule is about intentionally moving something to indicate line. I can use a tree, person, piece of grass but I can't move an object to show the line. You can use a spectator to line if the shot but you can't tell the spectator to move 5 steps to the left. Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaidJacket Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Actually you can use a spectator. You can ask them to stand in a position indicating your line, etc. However, they have to move before you take a shot. (except on the putting green) www.barryrhodes.com Rhodes Rule School Rule #73 My Sun Mountain bag currently includes: 771CSI 5i - PW and PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges EXS 10.5*, 929-HS FW4 16.5* Willimette w/GolfPride Contour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 One of the guys found me this video. It gets on this thread's topic at 11:05; they even had a spectator stand in place for a while as the caddie moved people around and talked to JS about the shot. It's also got pretty much the entire episode for those that wanted to see the whole debacle at 13. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFjjcOv5OX0&feature=youtu.be Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycleguy55 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Based on rule 8-2 I would say it isn't legal. There is an exception that the flagstick can be attended or held up but that doesn't seem to be the case. See this video for example of it happening on PGA tour : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqKweki8Sxc Regarding your position now that the match is over is up to your committee. Probably should have been brought up on the hole with the other team or with the captains at the end of the match. Based upon Mickelson's comments it appears Bones was tending the flagstick in order to remove it and avoid the possibility of interference with Phil's attempt to hole it. The intent is different, plus the player could see it whether held or otherwise, meaning 8-2 didn't apply. Sent from my Moto G (4) using MyGolfSpy mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUDque Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Bones actually did pull the stick though and he almost made it. There's a million other things he could've lined up with anyway so I'd be hesitant to call 8-2 on Phil. In my situation, he had zero viability to the pin or any tangible target. Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy In my Pisa, riding on a 3.5+ G410+ EXS 5W King F7 Hy i500 5-GW Equalizer 56/60 Heppler Ketsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Based upon Mickelson's comments it appears Bones was tending the flagstick in order to remove it and avoid the possibility of interference with Phil's attempt to hole it. The intent is different, plus the player could see it whether held or otherwise, meaning 8-2 didn't apply. Sent from my Moto G (4) using MyGolfSpy mobile app My assumption based on the rule is that phil could have told Bones to stand on a particular side of the flag while tending the flag. Otherwise you can move people to a particular spot. Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP043 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 My assumption based on the rule is that phil could have told Bones to stand on a particular side of the flag while tending the flag. Otherwise you can move people to a particular spot. As I read the rules, Phil couldn't have had Bones stand there as an aiming point. However, once Phil decided to have the flagstick attended, totally withing his rights under 17-1, he can then decide where he wants Bones to stand while Bones is attending the flag. While the flagstick is being attended, the ball may NOT strike the flagstick or the person attending it. Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X T22 54 and 58 wedges 7-wood 5-wood B60 G5i putter Right handed Reston, Virginia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 As I read the rules, Phil couldn't have had Bones stand there as an aiming point. However, once Phil decided to have the flagstick attended, totally withing his rights under 17-1, he can then decide where he wants Bones to stand while Bones is attending the flag. While the flagstick is being attended, the ball may NOT strike the flagstick or the person attending it. I read it the same way Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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