What?!

[Justin66]

"The industry must address the fact that the game (golf) is inaccessible, unaffordable, or too difficult (emphasis mine) for many beginners. All stakeholders own a piece of this problem, including the rulemaking bodies, course operators and equipment manufacturers. While there are grassroots programs that provide access to the courses, equipment and instruction, they don't have the reach or support neccessary to make a lasting impact. It's time for the industry to work out mutually acceptable solutions". -George Fellows, president and CEO, Callaway Golf, in the October 2010 issue of Golf magazine.

 

So, a company that moved most (or maybe all?) of its production to Mexico and/or China, in an effort to keep costs down (just like everyone else, golf-related or not) still pumps out product at the same retail price as everyone else yet says the game is unaffordable. This makes me laugh because: A) it's true; and B ) are any of the major OEMs REALLY going to do something like lower their prices for products just entering the market?

 

Obviously, if you wait 3 months you can get a Taylormade at half price (or after about a year, all the other OEMs), but is that still a bargain? I don't think so- not for the "average" golfer. But honestly, I wouldn't even begin to know what a "fair" price for major OEMs should/could be.

 

This doesn't include the perception factor. What if Callaway, Titleist and TM lower their prices on brand new models, yet Mizuno, Cleveland and Nike don't? Would the former be perceived differently than the latter?

 

Of course, you could swap OEMs in and out of either category, but the gist of the idea remains the same... if your "go to" brand were to make a huge reduction (I'm going to put the number out as 1/2, just for debate's sake) to consumer costs, in an effort to grow the game, would you perceive them differently?

[Matt Saternus]

Great find, and, I agree, that is really comical.

 

To answer your question: assuming that Mizuno & TM (my main go-to OEMs) maintained their current level of quality, I would love them that much more if they cut their prices by half.

 

You do raise an interesting point: how much do people perceive expensive as good? The answer (based on my experience) is: A LOT. I am routinely asked, at the store, "Why is this ____ so cheap? It must not be very good." There's another question that I think is linked: if TM (just to pick an OEM) cut their prices by half, how much would that cut into their marketing/tour budget? How would the drop in tour visibility impact their perceived value? My thought would be: a company can cut their prices and still be perceived as quality if they continue to push hard with advertising and tour visibility. If their marketing goes away, price doesn't matter, they will not be well perceived by the golfing masses.

[Stephen_Peszel]

Not while they pay obscene amounts for players to use their products; unless they choose to sponsor me then I withdraw my comments.

most OEMs need to redesign themselves and offer people what they really need to help their game.

There is some really good product out there even from the majors operators, and a lo of stuff nobody should use. I know I have some.

I won't buy anything at the "usual" price, it has to be steeply discounted.

At one time I had a bunch of instructors working for me and whenever they came to town we would play golf, of course it is expensive to carry clubs around so I bought several sets of decent clubs at a discount warehouse for a price I was comfortable with. Never paid more than $250 for a set that had sat in the warehouse for 3 years.

Some of the smaller companies are also too expensive though they produce really good clubs, they don't have economies of scale as they can't move as much product, why?because they don't have the advertising budget and can't afford, or won't, sponsor pros for the aforesaid obscene amount. Vicious cycle they can't get out of. That is where forums such as this can help with product testing of the non big name guys. Most product testers ONLY test big name, I wonder why??

What would happen if all the manufacturers suddenly stopped sponsoring? Well the leaderboard would not say Titleist would it?? Or would it.

Perhaps then pros would use equipment they liked.

Perhaps then amateurs would use equipment they liked.

Except we would still try to emulate the Pros and buy stuff they use but we shouldn't.

Vicious cycle again.

To answer the question, I try not to be swayed by advertising or the name factor so if equipment came down in price i would still only buy if the "price were right".

Don't get me started an clothing prices as they can be just as obscene.

Phew, sorry you asked?

[Tyk]

I don't really consider the cost of equipment as a major factor in the expense of golf, perhaps I should. But, IMO, a quality set of clubs can be had for relatively little money. Will it be the newest, best thing? Of course not, but what beginner needs that?

 

Callaway as a company is in some bizarre fantasy land where beginners are getting fitted and buying a whole new set of gear. I bet that's happened twice in the history of the world!

 

People start with hand me downs and continue with hand me ups when they're hooked on the game. Then they start buying gear and they become like most of us here, but everyone here think about your first set of clubs! I played a buddies cast offs for a few rounds, it wasn't even a full set, we had to share a putter! Then I bought a complete set of cheap Wilsons from some big box sporting good store for $150, bag included. I played those clubs for 2 years, adding bits and pieces here and there.

 

I really balk at paying "full price" for anything golf related. I'm always looking for deals and sales, and I almost always wait the 6 months or a year for the price to drop on clubs. I do this mainly because I can. The OEMs themselves give me that opportunity. Thier fast product cycles force them to blow out thier "old" equipment at 1/2 price a year after releasing it! Great for me!

 

I still maintain that the biggest detriment to golf is TIME and cost of green fees. Most people simply don't have 5 hours and $50+ to spend every week.

[Stephen_Peszel]

I have to agree Tyk, green fees here in Canada can be steep, typically $75 and up for a par 71 course, $40 for an "executive" length course. I have been on some of my local full length courses for 5.5 hours! Even the short ones, because they pump so many people out, can take 3,5 hours.

Such fun to arrive at a tee and find 3 other groups waiting.

That does put people off.

I suggested that all four should tee off at the same time, sort of "Salvo Golf" would speed things up, got strange looks.

I end up trying to play twilight or sunset just because it is cheaper.

[Justin66]

I still maintain that the biggest detriment to golf is TIME and cost of green fees. Most people simply don't have 5 hours and $50+ to spend every week.

 

That's another good point... I'm a firm believer in not spending more than $50 on a round of golf. The only place on my "bucket list" would be St. Andrews, but even then I don't think I'd shell out the cash for it. I payed $80 at a local, "big" course a couple of years ago and felt totally deflated. Having houses everywhere kind of sucked most of the scenery out of it, and it wasn't any more of a challenge than a couple of the other local munis (not saying I conquered it, but I shot about what I'd normally shoot). They ended up being a recession victim, came into new ownership and had their greens fees reduced 45%... while still maintaining a pretty high level of maintenence. Now, I feel it's worth fitting into my rotation of other local tracks.

[Xamilo]

Think about Wilson Staff. Ci7 irons went for $300 new. Did hey sell more than Taylormde Burners or Callaway's X-22 which cost more than twice the price even though they are as good or even better? Nope. hey still went under-sold compared with this two sets. That means people are willing to spend that amount of money for the brand or style which suits them most, or the one they find the brand to be more appealing. It is awesome to change your clubs all the time, but seriously, could you play with your same clubs for three years and change none? I'm sure the answer is yes, maybe except for the wedges due to the grooves. If yo had no money to spend on clubs, you could easily keep playing the ones you ones.

 

Green fees though are becoming ridiculous. Yes, I know maintaining the field in proper conditions requires a considerable amount of money, but sometimes it makes the game unplayable. Close to my place (Eastern Suburbs, Sydney, NSW, Australia) there are four or five courses. Couple of them go for around $40 which is alright but two go over $150 and one is totally private for a $2500 a year fee. $150 is the price of a new driver (last year model, or last month if Taylormade), and in four rounds I can pay for my entire equipment again.

 

That's what makes the game ridiculously expensive, and something which keeps me out of playign different places than m usual $39 a round Bondi Course

[Stephen_Peszel]

One of our local courses, Quilchena, is private and offered me a killer deal: $10,000 off the entrance fee and only $250 a month. Tempting.

[chappy]

I, like Xamilo play my golf in Australia.

 

This can be expensive but depending on where you play your golf in can be all relative.

 

I am a member of a private course in Melbourne, with full membership costing between $2,500 and $3000. And joining fees between $1000 to $15,000+.

 

In Melbourne, in my view, from a course perspective you get what you play for. The course that I am a member at a good course, but by no means the best.

 

However those in Melbourne, have a multitude of options as far as course selection goes and for those prepared to drive for 1.5 hours the whole Mornington peninsula opens up as an option. Having said that you still wont get much change out $70 for a round at a decent course and significantly more for the best courses (that is, if you can get on them)

 

Chappy

[Tyk]

Interesting to hear what courses cost in other parts of the world!

 

Here in Kansas City the cheapest courses are probably $25. Your decent public courses run from $30-$60. Upscale public is about $65-$80. I have a membership at a decent muni course for $1400/year which includes everything but cart fees. Membership at a private club starts at about $200/month plus initiation fee and can go WAY up from there. There's at least 50 golf courses within a 45 minute drive of my house.

 

The economic recession has put a lot of courses in the area in some serious financial trouble. Not to many have closed yet, but I suspect its coming if things don't turn around in the next year or so. Most courses offer some pretty serious discounts during the week and during the afternoon. If one paid attention I think you could play some pretty quality golf courses and average $40/round.

 

Now, compare that to other common sports and recreation. Most team sports around here cost around $75 for a 6 week session. Martial arts cost around $75/month, a gym membership is $50/month. So all of these things are a cheaper than golf even if you play only once a week.

 

The big difference though is that most of these other activities take an hour or two to play. Whereas golf, if you work a regular job and want to play you're either going in the evening after work and not getting home until dark, or you're going to take up 1/2 a day on the weekend. That's a critical difference for alot of people.

[chappy]

Agreed Tyk r.e. time to play. That is the arguement that I have routinely with my wife.

 

She likes that I have golf as an outlet but it drives her mad that it can keep me away from home for up to 7 hours depending on where I play.

[Sandy Koufax]

Here in extreme northern Utah, my private club has gone from 400 members 4 years ago to 280 today and probably has about two years left to figure out a way to boost membership before going under and selling the land for condos. At this point equity members are presented with an interesting catch-22: leave because you think the club's going to fail and you cut yourself out of a check eventually when the club fails!

 

In all seriousness however, it is tragic to watch the club founder. There are two other 18-hole courses in the immediate area, both public, with green + cart fees running $40 for 18 holes. And people would rather pay that and have their round last 5 or more hours at the public course, than play in 3 and a half hours on a better-maintained, more scenic course! There is even a VERY attractive junior membership available for $105 a month but the board either refuses or does not know how to market it.

[Justin66]

The going rates in my area (SW MI) are on par with Tyk's. There are some courses that are offering memberships at STEEPLY reduced rates (minus cart fees), while some aren't backing off. Even in good times, I never considered a membership... but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I always thought $30-$50/round made more sense than $600+/year, even though I play 1-3 times a week. If you haven't noticed, math isn't one of my strong suits LOL.

 

One thing I've always wondered is: what effect would your course "going green" have on the prices you pay? It seems like right now being "green" is good, but a tad costly. If your course put in, say, a water recycling set-up, or went to more natural pesticides, would you expect to pay more or less? I'm on the fence about the whole "green" movement, and I'm not highly interested in the politics of it, but it does seem to make sense to recycle water if it's being used strictly for irrigation; or inviting non-invasive predators of golf's agricultural foes (but Sandy, if I kill all of the golfer's, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key). But would/should we pay more for it?

[Super Tuna]

The problem with membership in most area's in Vancouver though is not only do you have to pony up somewhere between 20 and 80k to start, you must know x amount of people there already to sponsor your membership attempt on top of that. I know the purpose of it, but it makes it rather tricky for those of us who move to the city to even have the chance to join somewhere regardless of whether you can afford it or not.

 

Maybe we in Vancouver are lucky, but there are a lot of well maintained city run courses/privately owned public courses at decent prices.

[Stephen_Peszel]

AW, have you been to the UBC Golf Club lately? $59 a round. Mon - Thur. Was $75 in summer. Even the rich and famous would rather play there, could not find a parking spot among the Maseratis.

Best short course in Richmond is Country Meadows at $39.

Sunset/twilight time prices not much of a value right now, sun sets at 19:45 which means that for a 19:00 tee time one can't get 9 holes in. The little things about customer service that go missing.

Local courses punched the greens but did not discount. Gotta love putting on the beach.

[Matt Saternus]

I'll jump in here and agree that greens fees are a much bigger problem for me than equipment. As much as I love (more correctly, LOVE) golf equipment, I don't spend that much on it. I bought a new driver last fall for the first time in 4 years. Haven't changed my irons (except shafts and grips) since I started playing seriously 7 years ago. Lots of putters, yes, but that's just for fun, not needed for golf. $200-300 for new wedges each year and I'm done.

 

The problem is that around me (NW suburbs of Chicago), the cheapest green fees are around $40, even during the week. Yes, there are better deals here and there, but $40 is pretty much the low end. $40 for one round a week X 4 rounds per month X 5 months (conservatively) = $800 and that doesn't include carts, practicing, balls, or anything else. The cost of the game can be brutal and I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

[fozcycle]

The public links that I choose to play in Tampa gave us a "deal" a couple years ago when we moved our game from a club that was going to close (and did so a couple months later.

 

They have winter rates ($54)& summer rates ($34)so they gave us a flat rate of $30 year round for a shotgun start every Saturday morning at 8 AM. We provide a modified stableford points game every Saturday for about 20 to 30 golfers. Then every 6 months, we hold a 2 day tourney.

 

To be a member of the club, you pay about $120/month + $16 cart fees. To play as a member, the cost would be about $2,200 versus the $1,560 that I am paying.

 

Since I play year round and am not yet retired, I can only play on the weekends. This provides me with a reasonably affordable round of golf every week without paying to be a club member.

[Tyk]

That's pretty cool foz, very unusual for a course to give up such a premium tee time at a discount. 8:00 on Saturday is probably the easiest spot to sell! If you can't book that, you're doomed!

[Dave]

Equipment prices are irrelevant. You can get a set of clubs for anywhere from 10 bucks, up to the new Homna's. Depends on your budget and love of the game like everyone else has said.

 

Sounds like I may be lucky enough to live in the cheapest place in the world to play golf. I live in town with about 50K people living in it. 4 18 holes courses in town itself, Probably another 20 courses within an hour, most of them 9 holers though. My home track is in the middle of town, 2 mins drive from my house. I pay $360NZ ($260us) a year, unlimited golf, walking only. No need to book a tee time, you will get a game anytime in the weekend you like, expect between 11-3pm Sat. I'm a member at 2 clubs for the grand total of $560NZ a year. I get a discount at the other club, being a member at another club already, basically unlimited green fees.

[W.J Bosley]

I believe for most new players looking to play regular golf that finding on a regular basis the time to play is the most difficult task to sort out.

 

When they do get to play the game in the initial phase of checking it out and seeing if its for them on a weekly basis I find that a lot of my friends feel that it is way to slow compared to most other sports and thanks mainly to televised Pro Golf that is the type of game most of us are now used to which means 4 to 5 1/2 hour rounds. No fun in that.

 

I still don't understand why 18 holes is really pushed at new players when they are usually done after 9 holes and the 2 to 2 1/2 hours of play/walking.

 

Equipment cost doesn't really come into nowadays as the range of values is fine and to be honest who really needs 14 clubs to play the game well. I think if you were taught with 9 clubs and they were very well thought out designs you would shoot the same scores.

 

Private clubs are going to keep hurting until they work out how to get the missing 25 to 55 year old guys back into the club in a manner that does not put pressure on the lack of Saturday tee times, which tends to be the main day most regular current players want to play.

 

Just some thoughts, Boz.

[Tyk]

You are spot on with the 25-55 age group Boz, its a real problem at our course too, and a BIG issue for the game of golf as a whole. I'd even set the critical age range lower at 25-35, out of 80 guys in our association I think we have 3 under 35 years old. 40 of them are over 50, and probably a third of them are over 65!

 

So, who is going to pay to maintain all these golf courses in 10 years? The golfers are dying off faster than they're being replaced!

[JohnBarry]

I know I am doing my part, both of my kids are in the First Tee program.

[Super Tuna]

AW, have you been to the UBC Golf Club lately? $59 a round. Mon - Thur. Was $75 in summer. Even the rich and famous would rather play there, could not find a parking spot among the Maseratis.

 

That's the course closest to me so I go there quite frequently. Yes, my Rabbit does stand out from the other silly expensive cars in the parking lot too heh. However those prices aren't set in stone as I pay quite a bit less then that due for various reasons. Nice course but some wickedly snobby people there. Very good client meeting site however.

 

Tyk: The thing that a lot of people in that age bracket rail against is the hike in weekend prices when they can go. Now it may just be that the week day prices are a deal while the weekend prices are the true rate but that's not the perception. It more looks like the exceptionally wealthly people who don't have to work during the week get the sweet deal while the "working professional" types get drilled by the course greed. I find that in the golf industry, much like civil law cases, perception is everything. People play more expensive equipment because it's "better", people play at more expensive courses to brag about it, etc. Most of my friends are much more price concious and are looking for the deals to spend their money on and instead they get the greed perception. Normally I'd worry about the longevity of the courses in such an atmosphere where the 20/30/40 somethings are flocking elsewhere but Vancouver/Victoria has such a high retirement population that the attitude will never change and the game will remain solely in the hands of 60+'s.