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Non-conforming equipment from OEMs


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Reading the very fine article recently published on the blog about PRGR this section stood out to me:

 

Every OEM has the capacity to make non-conforming equipment, but few broach this category, mostly to avoid any association with terms like illegal and non-conforming. But the Japanese market is decidedly different, and the same rules don't always apply. Japanese consumers demand (and are happy to pay big bucks) for equipment which feeds a need to push against conformity; USGA and R&A rules be damned.

 

...and it really got me thinking.  Why don't US manufacturers intentionally make non conforming clubs?

 

If recreational golfers aren't playing in tournaments or in an event where the equipment is required to "conform" to the USGA or R&A, then what's the issue with nonconforming equipment?  

 

Let me be clear though - I'm not advocating for breaking the rules of play - I'm just wondering why manufacturers can't (or won't), for example, create a club that has a spring effect higher than the .083 currently allowed.  Why not push the boundaries a bit ?

 

If I'm playing with my buddies on the weekends and I swing at 90 mph and the club design can help me gain some extra yardage, what's the harm?

 

Is it Ethics?  Standards?  Perception?  Lack of demand?

 

Curious to hear your thoughts either way - pro or con...

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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There have been OEMs with non-confirming equipment in the past. There are some smaller component companies that offer non conforming drivers right now. There are also companies that will shave the face of your driver to get past the CT limit.

 

But consumers vote with their wallets and the sales haven't been big enough for a major OEM to take that leap and do a big release.

 

Bottom line is that stuff just doesn't move the needle enough in sales

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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There have been OEMs with non-confirming equipment in the past. There are some smaller component companies that offer non conforming drivers right now. There are also companies that will shave the face of your driver to get past the CT limit.

 

But consumers vote with their wallets and the sales haven't been big enough for a major OEM to take that leap and do a big release.

 

Bottom line is that stuff just doesn't move the needle enough in sales

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

....interesting. seems like the manufacturers will do anything/everything besides making equipment nonconforming; like that is the 'third rail' or something.  I think the first release of the Triton was nonconforming and you could send something back and get the 'conforming' section.  I thought that happened with a Nike driver a while ago also.  Wonder how many people bothered to get the 'conforming' versions ??

 

I agree that it is definitely driven by money and profits.  Although, it seems like a company like PXG with loads of $ would be willing to try it out.  

 

Wonder why it is more popular/trendy in Japan vs the US?  

 

Neat to know that you can increase the COR via aftermarket changes.

I think there was an article on the blog about that.  I'll have to revisit that one.

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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The risk for the big OEM's is too great. To be branded a 'cheater' club is death to the wide golf audience. To the niche that want that stuff it may help put that's a super small niche. It's why the Long Drive companies have put out some stuff that never got submitted for testing, most notably in my mind the Geek Golf Little Bastard 130. 

In a :ping-small: Hoofer Lite bag

 :titleist-small: TSR2, 10 degrees, A1 setting, Fujikara Speeder NX Blue 50-S

:taylormade-small: Stealth, 15 degrees, VA Composites Nemesys 70-S 

:755178188_TourEdge: E722, 19 degrees, Oban Devotion 80-S

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal Pro 4-P, Nippon 950GH Stiff Flex

 :cleveland-small: CBX Zipcore 50* (bent to *49) and RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 54* (bent to *55), DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

:wilson-small: Staff Model TG 60*, Dynamic Gold 120 S300

 SIK Golf Flo-C

:bridgestone-small: Tour B-XS (2022 Model)

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I think “niche” is the right word. Off-the-record conversations with many OEM's tells me there's very little love for USGA rules, and they can be pretty petty when it comes to how they interpret and enforce their own rules. No one from Wilson has ever said this, but the whole Triton thing was, in my mind, a big FU from the USGA to Wilson for daring to send a driver to retail without first kissing the ring and getting an official blessing. The visual issue the USGA had was a joke - and the CR issue in one specific setting was crazy - no one would ever set the driver up like that - but Wilson does have to own that because they had it in their instruction sheet and didn't test it at that particular setting - big oops on their part for that, but overall they didn't expect to have any issue with the USGA, nor did they intent to sell a non-conforming driver.

 

Last year Greg Norman said he was going to make a big announcement in the middle of the summer that would change the game — my guess is that was before he decided to arm wrestle with a chain saw. My totally out of nowhere and based on nothing theory was that we was going to establish his own governing body separate from the USGA - he's one of the few who would have the juice to do it. Of course I was dreaming, but what would the harm be to the game if there was a separate, non-competition set of rules of play and regulations for equipment? Not sure I'd play a guy for money if he had non-conforming equipment, but then again there are guys who I'd never play for money who wouldn't dream of playing non-conforming equipment - they just find other ways to cheat.

 

 

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What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

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If I recall correctly Callaway sold a non conforming retail driver quite a few years back?

Yeah they did. A version of the ERC Fusion that even had Arnold Palmer pushing it. Was a total flop in the US Market. I think until the industry pushes for bifurcation of the rules with specific "for tournament play" equipment and "recreational" equipment we won't see a real push for clubs that go beyond the current boundaries

 

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:callaway-small: Rogue SZ 10.5 *NEW* Fujikura Pro Green 65 X

:callaway-small: Rogue 15 degree Evnflow Blue 6.5

Back in the Bag :srixon-small: Z765 4-G Nippon Modus 120 Stiff

:vokey-small: 54 and 60

 

:bobby-grace-1: Amazing Grace Ass Kicker

 

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Stroker, I was thinking the same thing the last few times I read about JDM equipment and the non-conforming equipment that many jump all over across the pond. An older guy that could use a few more yards, and doesn't keep up a hdcp or enter tournaments, what the heck, why not?

 

But I thought about it more and more, and realized some of the stuff others have mentioned already

 

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Stroker, I was thinking the same thing the last few times I read about JDM equipment and the non-conforming equipment that many jump all over across the pond. An older guy that could use a few more yards, and doesn't keep up a hdcp or enter tournaments, what the heck, why not?

 

But I thought about it more and more, and realized some of the stuff others have mentioned already

 

Sent from my E6853 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

Yeah... it's really too bad.  I mean if Callaway can have a lineup that includes 10 (!) different sets of irons why not one that has a "non-conforming" sticker on it for the guy that just plays casually...

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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This presents some interesting questions, and a mixed response. 
 
First, I am fundamentally against "non-conforming" equipment for use by adults in standard play as overseen by the standard governing bodies in sport.  I think that everyone playing a sport should play by the same rules, with the same equipment- even in youth sport there is a requirement that the players all have conforming equipment - For example, in softball there are 5 major governing bodies that certify equipment such as bats, balls, safety equipment, gloves, etc- Every organization has a set of rules which promote consistent, fair, and safe play.

 

The same for Golf- the USGA and R&A have worked long and hard (and if the new rules changes are indeed implemented, it will make for a much easier set of rules to understand) to make the game fun, but also fair.   By and large (PGA and professional events aside) the rules of golf are self imposed rules.  Players penalize themselves (or not), and take appropriate relief as the circumstances dictate. 

 

If you want to bang a shaved face driver on the range, more power to you - just as if you want to practice with a training aid or swing aid, or swing between two tees, or lay down an aiming stick - go for it.  Just not on the course while playing.  Rules are rules to promote consistent, fair and safe play.  When you introduce a non-conforming piece of equipment (ball, club, training aid, etc) it changes the dynamics of the game, and takes it outside the bounds of "normal play." 

 

What if some courses made the hole 6 inches wide?  What if some high school basketball teams decided they were going to lower (or raise) the basket, or make the hoop smaller (think carnival hoop where the ball barely fits) - it would change the game fundamentally, and would be (in my humble opinion) be detrimental to both the spirit of the game and competition.

 

Now- I am all for providing youth the opportunity to play forward (such as the USGA Family tees program) and allowing some variances for physically challenged individuals- to help build and maintain interest in the game for youth and the physically challenged communities- but by and large,  I believe that fundamentally, the challenge of player versus course requires a standard to be upheld- and equipment standards are part of that standard- otherwise how do you recognize a course record - recorded by an individual playing non conforming clubs, non-conforming ball, from family tees and giving him or herself 10 foot "gimme's"

 

Look, I am never going to set any course records-  My fun comes from achieving a personal best or doing well against a very challenging course- that is about where the competition goes for me- but it is fun to be able to compare against your buddies or against the visiting club team without having to worry about every club, every ball and every opportunity for a "discrete foot wedge" from your opponent - or team-mate for that matter.

 

My two cents...

What's in the bag?
 
Driver :callaway-small: Callaway Mavrik 105 set to 9.5, square, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 60G Stiff shaft
#3 Wood  :callaway-small: Callaway FT Tour 13 degree neutral setup, Fuijkara 370 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid  :cobra-small:  18 Degree King Cobra Baffler pro, Baffler Stiff shaft
4-PW :titelist-small: Titlest 714 AP2, Standard loft and lie, MGS S Shafts
:benhogan-small: 53, 57 degree loft Hogan Equalizer wedges
1962  :wilson_staff_small: Wilson "Sandy Andy" sand wedge with HUGE bounce!
Putter MLA Pro Classic
:titelist-small: Titlist ProV 1, ProV 1x

Currently Gaming "Costco Kirkland Signature Tour Performance" balls

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fair enough...but keep in mind who the USGA and R&A regulations were created to conform to.

 

They weren't created to conform to guys/gals that have average swing speeds.

They weren't created to conform to folks that play casually at their local muni.

They weren't created to conform to....

 

They were created to conform to **everyone** touring pros and high handicap amateurs alike.

 

Perhaps the governing bodies would consider a different set of tolerances for amateurs vs professionals?

 

reiterating - this is equipment only.  I have no problem with the rules as they are constituted and everyone should follow them no matter what.

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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There is a lot of Asian Tour equipment that is perfectly legal there for play but does not conform to USGA and R&A rules. If you get into a lot of JDM stuff you can find it on Flea Bay etc. 

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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I have to ask for who & for proof that the regs are for 1 group only

 

may not be understanding your question properly but these are straight from the USGA rule book.  Appendix II covers the design of clubs..

 

Capture2.JPGCapture.JPG

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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You answered it in the 1st highlighted attachment.

You implied the equipment /rules weren't for average players just pros but the above statement says both were considered when making the rules

 

I see... sorry... my response was a bit confusing.

 

I meant to say that the equipment regulations are in place to conform to **everyone** - from tour pros to 35 handicappers.

 

Again - I don't mind the rules - I think it's simple and we should all follow the same rules for the game no matter if it is golf or checkers or monopoly or basketball.  

 

I think when it comes to the equipment - since tour pros are much different than non tour pros - there should be exceptions to some of the limitations in place to potentially allow for better performance for those wishing to use that type of equipment...

 

right now, there isn't even a choice and it seems a little short sighted.  

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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So, should we have 7 foot high basketball hoops for amateur players (and those vertically challenged, like me) and 10 foot high ones for the pros - or how about 12 foot high hoops for the pros, 10 for college.  Lets make college football fields 75 yards, but pro 150 yards- and the football smaller for pros, larger (easier to catch) for amateur and college teams....

 

Where do you draw the line- the game ceases to be a game of skill and more a gaming of the rules if you decide you can play from wherever, with whatever... Make the hole a foot in diameter for amateurs - will certainly improve my putting - oh, and chipping, too...

 

Sure, these are silly, extreme examples of what might happen without standards - rules of conformity- and, as I said, no harm done if you want to take a non-conforming driver and non-conforming iron set and non-conforming balls and shoot lights out - on your own, competing against your own score or an arbitrary number that you strive to attain- but the nature of golf is that you are often with other players, and while only truly competing against the course, invariably you are compared to the players you are walking with... and to give one a technological advantage which the  others cannot leverage- well, is not fair- and despite Indiana Jones' proclamation about bringing a gun to a knife-fight- there should be some reasonable process to achieve parity while still allowing for fun!

 

I think you present a good question, and if you want to play with a driver that, regardless of your swing, will result in a 300 yard bomb straight down the middle of the fairway, well, more power to you-  but I am reminded of the story of the old weekend golfer who struggled his whole life to break 80.  When he passes to the next life and opens his eyes he sees "Augusta"   to his left, Pebble Beach to his right, St. Andrews just down the lane and almost every other legendary golf course available to him.  He walks to Augusta, the starter welcomes him and sends him to the first tee- where he proceeds to crack a drive dead down the middle of the fairway -

 

Wow, he thinks, this is awesome- I cant believe I am in Augusta, and I just striped one down the fairway... when he arrives at his ball, he pulls a 5 iron, hits it pure and arrives about 20 feet from a tough pin placement- two-putts for his par.  Still unbelieving, he steps up to the second tee, hits his driver out to almost 300 yards again- his second is just short of the green, chips on and two--putts for his par-

This must be Heaven- I must be dreaming- the round continues- perfect scores- pars the entire course...  a personal best

 

The following day he finds himself at Pebble, and plays the same way, par every hole, every drive down the center, every green in regulation, every putt a 2-putt- a par round and he is in stunned disbelief...

 

The next day he plays the Old Course- same story...Every drive in the fairway, every green in regulation, every hole a 2-putt...The following day the same story at Cypress Point...

 

He arrives at  a course on the fifth day- it matters not which course.  He tees it up and stripes it down the middle, puts his approach on the green and two putts for his par- and begins to wonder, maybe this isn't Heaven after all.........

 

Just a thought... 

What's in the bag?
 
Driver :callaway-small: Callaway Mavrik 105 set to 9.5, square, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 60G Stiff shaft
#3 Wood  :callaway-small: Callaway FT Tour 13 degree neutral setup, Fuijkara 370 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid  :cobra-small:  18 Degree King Cobra Baffler pro, Baffler Stiff shaft
4-PW :titelist-small: Titlest 714 AP2, Standard loft and lie, MGS S Shafts
:benhogan-small: 53, 57 degree loft Hogan Equalizer wedges
1962  :wilson_staff_small: Wilson "Sandy Andy" sand wedge with HUGE bounce!
Putter MLA Pro Classic
:titelist-small: Titlist ProV 1, ProV 1x

Currently Gaming "Costco Kirkland Signature Tour Performance" balls

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So, should we have 7 foot high basketball hoops for amateur players (and those vertically challenged, like me) and 10 foot high ones for the pros - or how about 12 foot high hoops for the pros, 10 for college.  Lets make college football fields 75 yards, but pro 150 yards- and the football smaller for pros, larger (easier to catch) for amateur and college teams....

 

Where do you draw the line- the game ceases to be a game of skill and more a gaming of the rules if you decide you can play from wherever, with whatever... Make the hole a foot in diameter for amateurs - will certainly improve my putting - oh, and chipping, too...

 

Sure, these are silly, extreme examples of what might happen without standards - rules of conformity- and, as I said, no harm done if you want to take a non-conforming driver and non-conforming iron set and non-conforming balls and shoot lights out - on your own, competing against your own score or an arbitrary number that you strive to attain- but the nature of golf is that you are often with other players, and while only truly competing against the course, invariably you are compared to the players you are walking with... and to give one a technological advantage which the  others cannot leverage- well, is not fair- and despite Indiana Jones' proclamation about bringing a gun to a knife-fight- there should be some reasonable process to achieve parity while still allowing for fun!

 

For some reason you seem to be taking this and applying it other sports... this is apples and oranges.

basketball courts are all the same size

football fields are all the same size

tennis course are all the same size

baseball fields are the same size (after little league)

 

every golf course is a different size/shape/layout...every. single. one.

and in this case we have changed more than 1 variable and the equipment being used does matter.

 

frankly it seems like you're taking this to the extreme - which I am not suggesting at all....

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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Perhaps the joy of the game is in the challenge, and not the achievement- I don't know but I find excitement and enthusiasm in the challenge of recovery from a missed shot, the long punch out from under a tree, or carving a draw around an obstacle to save par... and playing "juiced" equipment, in my simple mind, is akin to steroids or HGH if you are a weigh-lifter-  Yes you want all the advantage you can get "within the rules" but I would not want to violate them just to get 10 more yards out of my drive.  I'd (and please understand, this is my personal opinion, worth exactly what everyone paid for it, and similar to belly buttons -everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs is better!!!)  rather play within the rules that work for everyday golfers and pros- their swing is always going to be better than mine, their clubs are going to be longer than mine and their results are almost always going to be better, too. 

 

That said, I would love to see them sit for a day in my chair, in my profession (doesn't matter what I do, but for each of you I am sure it is the same- be it a painter, a construction worker, plumber, pilot, military officer, police, firefighter, surgeon, etc) let a professional athlete try to do what you do and I  bet they wont be as good...

 

OK, rant done- now I have to get back to my real job or else I will have plenty of time to work on my golf...

What's in the bag?
 
Driver :callaway-small: Callaway Mavrik 105 set to 9.5, square, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 60G Stiff shaft
#3 Wood  :callaway-small: Callaway FT Tour 13 degree neutral setup, Fuijkara 370 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid  :cobra-small:  18 Degree King Cobra Baffler pro, Baffler Stiff shaft
4-PW :titelist-small: Titlest 714 AP2, Standard loft and lie, MGS S Shafts
:benhogan-small: 53, 57 degree loft Hogan Equalizer wedges
1962  :wilson_staff_small: Wilson "Sandy Andy" sand wedge with HUGE bounce!
Putter MLA Pro Classic
:titelist-small: Titlist ProV 1, ProV 1x

Currently Gaming "Costco Kirkland Signature Tour Performance" balls

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For some reason you seem to be taking this and applying it other sports... this is apples and oranges.

basketball courts are all the same size

football fields are all the same size

tennis course are all the same size

baseball fields are the same size (after little league)

 

every golf course is a different size/shape/layout...every. single. one.

and in this case we have changed more than 1 variable and the equipment being used does matter.

 

frankly it seems like you're taking this to the extreme - which I am not suggesting at all....

 

Stroker- you are correct, and I apologize if you took this out of context - not at all what I meant- I understand and agree that an individual has the right to use whatever he wants- and not sure why the industry (other than what has already been mentioned) doesn't make more non-conforming equipment.

 

My only point in my little (ok maybe more than little) rant is that I personally prefer to play within the confines of the rules as they currently exist-

 

My experience is that some individuals will take the inch they are given, and stretch it into a yard, and that concerns me for a game where I call most penalties on myself.  Again, this is just me- 

 

BTW, Thanks for the great topic.   I think I have written more here today than I have in several of my recent research papers!!!  Guess that tells you where my mind is right now!! 

 

What's in the bag?
 
Driver :callaway-small: Callaway Mavrik 105 set to 9.5, square, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 60G Stiff shaft
#3 Wood  :callaway-small: Callaway FT Tour 13 degree neutral setup, Fuijkara 370 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid  :cobra-small:  18 Degree King Cobra Baffler pro, Baffler Stiff shaft
4-PW :titelist-small: Titlest 714 AP2, Standard loft and lie, MGS S Shafts
:benhogan-small: 53, 57 degree loft Hogan Equalizer wedges
1962  :wilson_staff_small: Wilson "Sandy Andy" sand wedge with HUGE bounce!
Putter MLA Pro Classic
:titelist-small: Titlist ProV 1, ProV 1x

Currently Gaming "Costco Kirkland Signature Tour Performance" balls

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Stroker- you are correct, and I apologize if you took this out of context - not at all what I meant- I understand and agree that an individual has the right to use whatever he wants- and not sure why the industry (other than what has already been mentioned) doesn't make more non-conforming equipment.

 

My only point in my little (ok maybe more than little) rant is that I personally prefer to play within the confines of the rules as they currently exist-

 

My experience is that some individuals will take the inch they are given, and stretch it into a yard, and that concerns me for a game where I call most penalties on myself.  Again, this is just me- 

 

BTW, Thanks for the great topic.   I think I have written more here today than I have in several of my recent research papers!!!  Guess that tells you where my mind is right now!! 

 

 

Thanks for commenting!  I was hoping this topic would generate some interest and commentary and glad to see that it did.  There are definitely multiple sides to the issue and I'm happy that we are able to engage in a good conversation about them!!

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

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To use the basketball analogy.  They already do make adjustable hoops.  What's wrong with the kid in driveway lowering the hoop to try and dunk?  It's not hurting anyone and it makes it fun.  Now when that kid goes to play a competitive game the hoops are all back at 10'.

 

Same with golf.  If someone want to use a juiced up driver when they are messing around and playing for fun I don't see an issue.

 

Now take that same guy and make it a competitive match and you have to go back to following the rules and using conforming equipment.  It's up to the individual player how they want to play the game.

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Ok I am going to bite and throw in my .02 worth FWIW. Now this is only IMHO and I may step off in a big pile of poop but here goes

 

First off my contension with the USGA and R&A started with the 2010 groove rule on clubs of 25* or more. Suddenly a whole host of clubs were deemed non-conforming. That is a two edged sword itself. Good example most of my old Cleveland 588 wedges made in the 80s and 90s were non conforming. Now say my 1987 Cleveland 588 was conforming to both standards on the date of manufacture but now it is not. Another thing is that if a club is not tested and on the conforming list it is deemed non conforming until tested. Believe it or not a lot of clubs made between 1950 and 1995 would conform IF tested but until they are tested and deemed conforming they are deemed non conforming. To get those tested will cost you a few bucks. Now if someone really gets technical some new model that have been deemed and tested conforming can check non conforming on an individual club. A friend of mine on WRX who is a top amateur golfer ran into that with a set of Vega (a JDM brand) irons made in 2015. He had them sent off to the USGA and tested at his own expense because he had heard some stuff, I think the 7 iron and 8 iron in that set tested non conforming. He told me a USGA official told him tongue in cheek that some of the conforming sets if you pulled them off the shelf that some of the clubs in any given set would check non conforming and that was with all major USA manufacturers. The reason he had those Vega irons checked he told me was that if someone was playing JDM irons in some top tournaments that some guys had a habit for what ever reason to call them on it. One of the reasons I have never seriously pursued getting my AM status back and playing USGA and Carolina's Golf Association events. I do not need that BS.

 

The anchored putter thing got me started really bad. I did actually try one and putted with it a while but went back conventional style long before the anchor ban. I never had no problem with anchoring. When the USGA started on that agged on by Nobilo and Chamblee on the GC it stirred up a firestorm. All of a sudden senior golfers with back problems and the shakes due to age or meds were going to quit league play or the game all together. Most of the senior leagues here adopted a "local" rule to disregard the anchor ban. Now that Langer and McCarron have found a way to use the broomstick legally the talking heads are at it again wanting to limit overall putter length

 

All of the above is why I have not renewed my USGA Membership since 2010 after being a 30 year member

 

Now I can respectfully see ddryan's point on the rules. I do not nessecarairly condone juiced up drivers and balls etc except in some occasions. When I ran the golf shop I had a friend of mine come to me. His Dad was in his 80s and still in good health and had played the game all his life. Now of course he was upset about diminished distance even from the red (over 70 tees). My buddy wanted to know if I could help. Of course I built him a Intregra non conforming driver and sold him some Bandit Non conforming balls. The old man picked up maybe 10 yards but was pleased and played for 3 or so years until his death. 

 

I have also said this that less than 5% of all golfers are as passionate or know as much about the game as us folks on this and other golf sites. Most of them play for the fun of it and could care less about the stipulated rules or the USGA, R&A or the PGA for that matter. Most of them do not keep a legal stipulated handicap or care about one.

 

I am retired from comp now and big money matches for the most part. I do play with 3 or 4 small groups in small money matches. No one in any of those groups gives 2 hoots whether a wedge conforms or not or if someone anchors or not. Which I say I have no problem with someone playing strictly by the rules on equipment etc what ever floats one's boat

 

My .02 FWIW hope I did not make any one mad and you guys will talk to me again

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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Ok I am going to bite and throw in my .02 worth FWIW. Now this is only IMHO and I may step off in a big pile of poop but here goes

 

First off my contension with the USGA and R&A started with the 2010 groove rule on clubs of 25* or more. Suddenly a whole host of clubs were deemed non-conforming. That is a two edged sword itself. Good example most of my old Cleveland 588 wedges made in the 80s and 90s were non conforming. Now say my 1987 Cleveland 588 was conforming to both standards on the date of manufacture but now it is not. Another thing is that if a club is not tested and on the conforming list it is deemed non conforming until tested. Believe it or not a lot of clubs made between 1950 and 1995 would conform IF tested but until they are tested and deemed conforming they are deemed non conforming. To get those tested will cost you a few bucks. Now if someone really gets technical some new model that have been deemed and tested conforming can check non conforming on an individual club. A friend of mine on WRX who is a top amateur golfer ran into that with a set of Vega (a JDM brand) irons made in 2015. He had them sent off to the USGA and tested at his own expense because he had heard some stuff, I think the 7 iron and 8 iron in that set tested non conforming. He told me a USGA official told him tongue in cheek that some of the conforming sets if you pulled them off the shelf that some of the clubs in any given set would check non conforming and that was with all major USA manufacturers. The reason he had those Vega irons checked he told me was that if someone was playing JDM irons in some top tournaments that some guys had a habit for what ever reason to call them on it. One of the reasons I have never seriously pursued getting my AM status back and playing USGA and Carolina's Golf Association events. I do not need that BS.

 

The anchored putter thing got me started really bad. I did actually try one and putted with it a while but went back conventional style long before the anchor ban. I never had no problem with anchoring. When the USGA started on that agged on by Nobilo and Chamblee on the GC it stirred up a firestorm. All of a sudden senior golfers with back problems and the shakes due to age or meds were going to quit league play or the game all together. Most of the senior leagues here adopted a "local" rule to disregard the anchor ban. Now that Langer and McCarron have found a way to use the broomstick legally the talking heads are at it again wanting to limit overall putter length

 

All of the above is why I have not renewed my USGA Membership since 2010 after being a 30 year member

 

Now I can respectfully see ddryan's point on the rules. I do not nessecarairly condone juiced up drivers and balls etc except in some occasions. When I ran the golf shop I had a friend of mine come to me. His Dad was in his 80s and still in good health and had played the game all his life. Now of course he was upset about diminished distance even from the red (over 70 tees). My buddy wanted to know if I could help. Of course I built him a Intregra non conforming driver and sold him some Bandit Non conforming balls. The old man picked up maybe 10 yards but was pleased and played for 3 or so years until his death.

 

I have also said this that less than 5% of all golfers are as passionate or know as much about the game as us folks on this and other golf sites. Most of them play for the fun of it and could care less about the stipulated rules or the USGA, R&A or the PGA for that matter. Most of them do not keep a legal stipulated handicap or care about one.

 

I am retired from comp now and big money matches for the most part. I do play with 3 or 4 small groups in small money matches. No one in any of those groups gives 2 hoots whether a wedge conforms or not or if someone anchors or not. Which I say I have no problem with someone playing strictly by the rules on equipment etc what ever floats one's boat

 

My .02 FWIW hope I did not make any one mad and you guys will talk to me again

 

BIG STU I always enjoy reading your point of view. Agree with the wedge and putter BS.

 

Maybe us people who wouldn't mind playing non-conforming should have our own MGS little Japan and play what we want and not care

 

Great topic!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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BIG STU I always enjoy reading your point of view. Agree with the wedge and putter BS.

 

Maybe us people who wouldn't mind playing non-conforming should have our own MGS little Japan and play what we want and not care

 

Great topic!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Basically I started the Outlaw Golf Association (OGA) over on WRX. No fees no dues etc just a little informal thing with only a couple of rules (sic)

#1 A basic disdain for the UCSGA and R&A and slam both organizations on the forums in public when ever you can

#2 Have fun playing and play what ever equipment you want to again The USGA and R&A be dammed!!

 

I have explained this before over here but have had no takers yet

That explains the OGA reference in my signature

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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Basically I started the Outlaw Golf Association (OGA) over on WRX. No fees no dues etc just a little informal thing with only a couple of rules (sic)

#1 A basic disdain for the UCSGA and R&A and slam both organizations on the forums in public when ever you can

#2 Have fun playing and play what ever equipment you want to again The USGA and R&A be dammed!!

 

I have explained this before over here but have had no takers yet

That explains the OGA reference in my signature

 

Just curious, what's your stance on chippers and other silly clubs that are definitely not confirming in any way shape or form?

 

 

Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy

In my ATumSBM.jpg Pisa, riding on a hXf3ptG.jpg 3.5+

:ping-small: G410+
:755178188_TourEdge: EXS 5W
:cobra-small: King F7 Hy

:ping-small: i500 5-GW
wxW5hk4.jpg Equalizer 56/60
:ping-small: Heppler Ketsch

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Just curious, what's your stance on chippers and other silly clubs that are definitely not confirming in any way shape or form?

 

 

Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy

I look at chippers and wide flanged sand clubs like the Cleveland Smart Sole wedge as fundamentally being no different than a hybrid. People hit hybrids because they're easier to hit than long irons. People hit chippers because they're easier to chip with than wedges.

 

Not sure there's a big difference.

 

If it helps someone have more fun playing, why the hell not?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

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I think the major thing is perception. Recreational golfers can be a snobby bunch. We look down on all sorts of things, even if they aren't illegal, but viewed as a crutch. Also we want to play what our favorite pga pro plays. So for OEMs is it really worth their money for the R&D and production?

 

 

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Bryan Pool

Ping G20 Driver

Bombtech hybrids

Ping G20 green dot irons/wedges

Cleveland Huntington beach 6 putter 

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Ok I am going to bite and throw in my .02 worth FWIW. Now this is only IMHO and I may step off in a big pile of poop but here goes

 

First off my contension with the USGA and R&A started with the 2010 groove rule on clubs of 25* or more. Suddenly a whole host of clubs were deemed non-conforming. That is a two edged sword itself. Good example most of my old Cleveland 588 wedges made in the 80s and 90s were non conforming. Now say my 1987 Cleveland 588 was conforming to both standards on the date of manufacture but now it is not. Another thing is that if a club is not tested and on the conforming list it is deemed non conforming until tested. Believe it or not a lot of clubs made between 1950 and 1995 would conform IF tested but until they are tested and deemed conforming they are deemed non conforming. To get those tested will cost you a few bucks. Now if someone really gets technical some new model that have been deemed and tested conforming can check non conforming on an individual club. A friend of mine on WRX who is a top amateur golfer ran into that with a set of Vega (a JDM brand) irons made in 2015. He had them sent off to the USGA and tested at his own expense because he had heard some stuff, I think the 7 iron and 8 iron in that set tested non conforming. He told me a USGA official told him tongue in cheek that some of the conforming sets if you pulled them off the shelf that some of the clubs in any given set would check non conforming and that was with all major USA manufacturers. The reason he had those Vega irons checked he told me was that if someone was playing JDM irons in some top tournaments that some guys had a habit for what ever reason to call them on it. One of the reasons I have never seriously pursued getting my AM status back and playing USGA and Carolina's Golf Association events. I do not need that BS.

 

The anchored putter thing got me started really bad. I did actually try one and putted with it a while but went back conventional style long before the anchor ban. I never had no problem with anchoring. When the USGA started on that agged on by Nobilo and Chamblee on the GC it stirred up a firestorm. All of a sudden senior golfers with back problems and the shakes due to age or meds were going to quit league play or the game all together. Most of the senior leagues here adopted a "local" rule to disregard the anchor ban. Now that Langer and McCarron have found a way to use the broomstick legally the talking heads are at it again wanting to limit overall putter length

 

All of the above is why I have not renewed my USGA Membership since 2010 after being a 30 year member

 

Now I can respectfully see ddryan's point on the rules. I do not nessecarairly condone juiced up drivers and balls etc except in some occasions. When I ran the golf shop I had a friend of mine come to me. His Dad was in his 80s and still in good health and had played the game all his life. Now of course he was upset about diminished distance even from the red (over 70 tees). My buddy wanted to know if I could help. Of course I built him a Intregra non conforming driver and sold him some Bandit Non conforming balls. The old man picked up maybe 10 yards but was pleased and played for 3 or so years until his death. 

 

I have also said this that less than 5% of all golfers are as passionate or know as much about the game as us folks on this and other golf sites. Most of them play for the fun of it and could care less about the stipulated rules or the USGA, R&A or the PGA for that matter. Most of them do not keep a legal stipulated handicap or care about one.

 

I am retired from comp now and big money matches for the most part. I do play with 3 or 4 small groups in small money matches. No one in any of those groups gives 2 hoots whether a wedge conforms or not or if someone anchors or not. Which I say I have no problem with someone playing strictly by the rules on equipment etc what ever floats one's boat

 

My .02 FWIW hope I did not make any one mad and you guys will talk to me again

 

 

BIG STU I always enjoy reading your point of view. Agree with the wedge and putter BS.

 

Maybe us people who wouldn't mind playing non-conforming should have our own MGS little Japan and play what we want and not care

 

Great topic!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

 

Just curious, what's your stance on chippers and other silly clubs that are definitely not confirming in any way shape or form?

 

 

Sent from carrier pigeon using MyGolfSpy

 

 

This is an awesome topic, thanks Stroker, for getting it out there.  I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion the debate, and the various opinions and  biases we all have. 

 

Big Stu, at the end of the day, you are spot on- it is the individual playing that matters, and if he or she is using clubs or balls that make them play better, and it keeps them coming back, then all the better.

 

You bring up great points about clubs which were conforming when manufactured, but are no longer conforming because of this or that... and that if a club has not been tested it is judged as non-conforming until proven otherwise.  

 

I recall the heyday of the 1970's Philadelphia Flyers, and how players were learning to curve their (previously straight) hockey sticks, to get elevation and control on their shots.  The NHL rule book went from a handful of pages in the 1960's  to over 1000 pages (in part to cover all the fighting penalties, instigator penalties, etc) and to cover the curve of the blade and the size of goalie pads, chest protectors and the like. 

 

I remember teams trying to catch the opponent on an "illegally curved stick" which would result in the referee measuring a stick against a "legal" template - oh, but players go thru several sticks in a game, so which one to measure, etc.  Managing it became a challenge, and although the rule still exists, it is rarely if ever called, and some coaches have used the "illegal equipment" penalty at key moments in games to win a power play, and in some cases, swing the momentum of an entire series, including the 1993 Stanley Cup Finals.

 

If one is playing in competition, there should be standards and rules- and all should adhere to them. When you are playing alone or when it is you against the course- use what you like- perhaps easier to hit, more explosive faces would help those beginning the game to stick with it, and ultimately grow our game.

 

For myself, I will try to follow the rules as best I understand them, with the tools that are approved. It is good to know that others are looking at this, and whatever is best for the game is OK with me. That, of course, is open to interpretation, and just like belly buttons, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion!

What's in the bag?
 
Driver :callaway-small: Callaway Mavrik 105 set to 9.5, square, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 60G Stiff shaft
#3 Wood  :callaway-small: Callaway FT Tour 13 degree neutral setup, Fuijkara 370 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid  :cobra-small:  18 Degree King Cobra Baffler pro, Baffler Stiff shaft
4-PW :titelist-small: Titlest 714 AP2, Standard loft and lie, MGS S Shafts
:benhogan-small: 53, 57 degree loft Hogan Equalizer wedges
1962  :wilson_staff_small: Wilson "Sandy Andy" sand wedge with HUGE bounce!
Putter MLA Pro Classic
:titelist-small: Titlist ProV 1, ProV 1x

Currently Gaming "Costco Kirkland Signature Tour Performance" balls

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