New rules re: penalty assessments

[TheWahoo]

Per TGC Morning Drive, it seems that the R&A, the USGA and all the Tours have agreed that viewer input on rule violations will no longer be accepted.  Instead, a rules official will monitor videos in real time.   Additionally, a violation will continue to have a 2 stroke penalty, but not the additional 2 strokes for a wrong score if unintentional.   Under the new rules, Lexi would have only received a 2 stoke penalty in the ANA.   However, a violation occurring on a Thursday can be assessed on Sunday, for example.   

 

Personally, I like the changes.  

[Golfspy_CG2]

I only read the headline, and didn't get to read the entire article, so thanks for summarizing it.   All I can say is, "What F took them so long!!!"

[MDGolfHacker]

About time they did that.

 

MDGolfHacker

[GolfSpy_APH]

About time they did that.

 

MDGolfHacker

Second that! Glad to see some positive changes for the better

[tommc23]

That is a great move.

 

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[MaxEntropy]

About time they did that.

 

MDGolfHacker

Amen. I always thought it was terribly unfair, because the leaders/popular players get more air time and more eyes on them for potential violations

 

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[DaveP043]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with most of you, I don't think this is a good change overall.  I do think that having an official continuously review the feed is a positive step, and if that review is perfect, most of my objections will go away.  but nobody is perfect.  In my opinion, the most important thing is to get  it right. 

 

If a player breaks a rule, they should be penalized.  Simple.

 

I think that its a poor choice to ignore video evidence of a breach of the rules, based on WHO notices the breach.  For those who say that someone on his armchair shouldn't be able to influence the scoring, I say that its the PLAYER who breaches the rule who is responsible, not the person who notices the breach.  The removal of a two-stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard removes all motivation for a player go get the score right, including all possible penalties.  The worst that happens is that he gets the penalty strokes he deserves, the penalty strokes that he (or she) might be trying to avoid taking.  For those who talk about the "poor player" who gets screwed by a viewer, I say "Learn the rules.  Play by the rules.  This is your profession, be a professional".  If you don't breach the rules, you won't have any penalties called in by viewers. My worst fear is that we'll have someone win a major by a stroke, and we'll know on Saturday that the winner inadvertently moved his ball but wasn't penalized.  Of course, the outcry over THAT will push the ruling bodies to change this rule yet again, maybe even reinstate the DQ penalty for an incorrect scorecard..  

[Brian A]

about time, no other sport allows this! 

[DaveP043]

about time, no other sport allows this! 

In no other sport is the player responsible for penalizing himself for a breach of the rules.  In no other sport is the player responsible for reporting his score accurately.  There are lots of ways in which golf is different from any other sport.  I love golf, at least in part because it IS different from those other sports.

[revkev]

These seem like wise decisions - an official reviewing the video feed means consistency in applying the rules and immediacy in asking the participant about what happened.

 

I read Dave's post and considered it carefully because I respect his opinion and generally agree with him on matters. I could be persuaded on the matter of penalties and DQs but not so much on people calling in.

 

Having an on course official reviewing all feed makes sense. Additionally I would say that once the next round starts the prior round is in the books, done, live with it.

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with most of you, I don't think this is a good change overall. I do think that having an official continuously review the feed is a positive step, and if that review is perfect, most of my objections will go away. but nobody is perfect. In my opinion, the most important thing is to get it right.

 

If a player breaks a rule, they should be penalized. Simple.

 

I think that its a poor choice to ignore video evidence of a breach of the rules, based on WHO notices the breach. For those who say that someone on his armchair shouldn't be able to influence the scoring, I say that its the PLAYER who breaches the rule who is responsible, not the person who notices the breach. The removal of a two-stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard removes all motivation for a player go get the score right, including all possible penalties. The worst that happens is that he gets the penalty strokes he deserves, the penalty strokes that he (or she) might be trying to avoid taking. For those who talk about the "poor player" who gets screwed by a viewer, I say "Learn the rules. Play by the rules. This is your profession, be a professional". If you don't breach the rules, you won't have any penalties called in by viewers. My worst fear is that we'll have someone win a major by a stroke, and we'll know on Saturday that the winner inadvertently moved his ball but wasn't penalized. Of course, the outcry over THAT will push the ruling bodies to change this rule yet again, maybe even reinstate the DQ penalty for an incorrect scorecard..

So does that mean that when I see Lebron take 7 steps without traveling being called that I should be able to call it in have the leagues reveiw it and remove the points from the score? Because he did break the rules it just wasn't called.

It's the same thing here, not every rule and not every infraction has been or ever will be enforced. I agree this could go in the wrong direction at some point, but I think by saying that Joe Schmo sitting at home cannot Call in an infraction is a good thing and is a good start. if the rules officials and the players in that group along with the video officials cannot find an infraction, then my guess is, there wasn't one. I don't want to see someone sitting at home playing and rewinding something they thought they saw, just so they can call an infraction on a player they don't like.

[DaveP043]

So does that mean that when I see Lebron take 7 steps without traveling being called that I should be able to call it in have the leagues reveiw it and remove the points from the score? Because he did break the rules it just wasn't called.

It's the same thing here, not every rule and not every infraction has been or ever will be enforced. I agree this could go in the wrong direction at some point, but I think by saying that Joe Schmo sitting at home cannot Call in an infraction is a good thing and is a good start. if the rules officials and the players in that group along with the video officials cannot find an infraction, then my guess is, there wasn't one. I don't want to see someone sitting at home playing and rewinding something they thought they saw, just so they can call an infraction on a player they don't like.

There's a difference between a rules official in golf and a referee in basketball.  While the referee is specifically tasked with calling fouls or infractions in real time, the rules official is there to provide guidance when a player has a question.  He's not there to monitor each action by each player in the group.

I also realize the perception is that the folks who call in about infractions are fat vindictive slobs.  Does it change if the caller is an off-duty rules official who sees something he thinks deserves a second look?  How about if its a player who sees his buddy do something, and he calls in because he wants things to be right?  Both of those circumstances have occurred.  Also remember that the callers do NOT enforce penalties.  They simply bring evidence to the attention of the on-site officials, who then determine whether an infraction occurred.  

Remember, if you commit no infractions, there will be no penalty, no matter how many people call in.  When I think back on relatively recent instances, I come up with three off the top of my head:

 

Tiger at the Masters, drops further away to get a better yardage.  There's no excuse for not knowing the rules for a ball in a hazard.

 

Anna Nordquist in the bunker.  The rules has been changed so that moving those few grains of sand would not be an infraction, a change that I support.

 

Lexi Thompson remarks her ball almost an inch to the side.  Did she not know she is required to replace it on the spot?  Did she move it to avoid a spike mark?  Was she just careless?  She deserved the penalty.

 

These aren't esoteric fine points in the rules, these are very basic rules which were violated.  To ignore video evidence, no matter who brings it to the attention of the rules officials, is a poor choice, in my opinion.  To decline to penalize those who violate the rules is to change the results of the match.  To penalize them is to GET IT RIGHT.

[JAGolfore]

This topic brings something to mind that I feel would be great on the board. I looked around and didn't see a section for Rules. We could use it to educate everyone on the rules of this great game and be a place to get rulings for our own games.

 

 

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[DaveP043]

This topic brings something to mind that I feel would be great on the board. I looked around and didn't see a section for Rules. We could use it to educate everyone on the rules of this great game and be a place to get rulings for our own games.

We already have one:

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/forum/37-golf-rules-discussion/

That forum doesn't get near the traffic that Rules Forums on some other golf websites get.

[Rickp]

There's definitely good points made on both sides. But I'm inclined to go with the rule change. I've been against the “call in official” since it started. What happened to Lexi in my opinion was overboard. She did mess up no question but 2 strokes was enough.

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

There's a difference between a rules official in golf and a referee in basketball. While the referee is specifically tasked with calling fouls or infractions in real time, the rules official is there to provide guidance when a player has a question. He's not there to monitor each action by each player in the group.

I also realize the perception is that the folks who call in about infractions are fat vindictive slobs. Does it change if the caller is an off-duty rules official who sees something he thinks deserves a second look? How about if its a player who sees his buddy do something, and he calls in because he wants things to be right? Both of those circumstances have occurred. Also remember that the callers do NOT enforce penalties. They simply bring evidence to the attention of the on-site officials, who then determine whether an infraction occurred.

Remember, if you commit no infractions, there will be no penalty, no matter how many people call in. When I think back on relatively recent instances, I come up with three off the top of my head:

 

Tiger at the Masters, drops further away to get a better yardage. There's no excuse for not knowing the rules for a ball in a hazard.

 

Anna Nordquist in the bunker. The rules has been changed so that moving those few grains of sand would not be an infraction, a change that I support.

 

Lexi Thompson remarks her ball almost an inch to the side. Did she not know she is required to replace it on the spot? Did she move it to avoid a spike mark? Was she just careless? She deserved the penalty.

 

These aren't esoteric fine points in the rules, these are very basic rules which were violated. To ignore video evidence, no matter who brings it to the attention of the rules officials, is a poor choice, in my opinion. To decline to penalize those who violate the rules is to change the results of the match. To penalize them is to GET IT RIGHT.

They will now have officials going over video throughout the rounds to look specifically for rules infractions. If a referee is walking with a group and sees a rules violation, he will call it, they don't just wait and see. Just like an opposing player has the right to call a rules infraction. No one should be able to call in while watching on TV and report a rules infraction. No one ever. We clearly differ in opinion on this. So I'll leave it alone there, it's not going to change based on your comments or mine.

[DaveP043]

These seem like wise decisions - an official reviewing the video feed means consistency in applying the rules and immediacy in asking the participant about what happened.

 

I read Dave's post and considered it carefully because I respect his opinion and generally agree with him on matters. I could be persuaded on the matter of penalties and DQs but not so much on people calling in.

Thanks for the kind words, revkev.  I know I'm on a little bit of an island with my views, and I do respect those who disagree with me.  I just think that its better to get things right, no matter who brings the evidence to the attention of the officials.  I don't like to see it happen, especially a day after the fact, but I believe that NOT assessing penalties where they are clearly deserved is much worse.  If the on-site video review officials manage to catch all of the infractions, then my concerns will go away, but I know that those officials will be humans, and so they will be fallible.

[Bags]

I only read the headline, and didn't get to read the entire article, so thanks for summarizing it. All I can say is, "What F took them so long!!!"

lol

 

 

Bags

[revkev]

Thanks for the kind words, revkev. I know I'm on a little bit of an island with my views, and I do respect those who disagree with me. I just think that its better to get things right, no matter who brings the evidence to the attention of the officials. I don't like to see it happen, especially a day after the fact, but I believe that NOT assessing penalties where they are clearly deserved is much worse. If the on-site video review officials manage to catch all of the infractions, then my concerns will go away, but I know that those officials will be humans, and so they will be fallible.

You would think the guy going through the feed would do the trick. I think that if folks realize zed that all calls would be filtered through him also it might solve the matter.

 

The Tiger and Lexi events were particularly egregious as they appeared to be intentional. I'm still stunned that Tiger wasn't DQd

 

 

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[MDGolfHacker]

Thanks for the kind words, revkev. I know I'm on a little bit of an island with my views, and I do respect those who disagree with me. I just think that its better to get things right, no matter who brings the evidence to the attention of the officials. I don't like to see it happen, especially a day after the fact, but I believe that NOT assessing penalties where they are clearly deserved is much worse. If the on-site video review officials manage to catch all of the infractions, then my concerns will go away, but I know that those officials will be humans, and so they will be fallible.

So.. I think we can all agree that there should be a penalty for a rules infraction. Where the differences come from is to whom should report it. But really it's when the penalties are applied that are unfair. Who cares if it's an onsite rules official, arm chair guy who knows the rules, or Joe/Betty Golfer watching it on TV. A penalty is a penalty. Having a penalty apply after a day is over and the scorecards are signed by everyone is luducris. It should only apply during the LIVE round. There are some very knowledgeable golfers out in the TV viewing sphere that knows the rules of golf inside and out. Golf is a self policing game. Why would we not want to use that resource?

 

MDGolfHacker

[EthanSterlingPrice]

I definitely like that the armchair official is no longer involved but I don't think a violation should be up for review after a round (the entire field) is concluded, at least not without the player involved being notified and he shouldn't be required to sign for the round until the dispute is resolved. I like to think that would help prevent stuff like the Lexi incident but I'm not in control (probably for the better).

 

 

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[McaseyM]

You would think the guy going through the feed would do the trick. I think that if folks realize zed that all calls would be filtered through him also it might solve the matter.

 

The Tiger and Lexi events were particularly egregious as they appeared to be intentional. I'm still stunned that Tiger wasn't DQd

 

 

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Agreed on the Tiger ruling ( or non-ruling) especially since he admitted it as much in a post-round interview, but if Tiger doesn't make the weekend or is DQ'd before the final round, ratings go down significantly, so $$$ won out

 

 

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[DaveP043]

I've changed my mind a little bit.  I don't think the "ban" on call-ins will make a bit of difference.  Dave in Virginia (to use myself as an example) may have a reasonable grasp of the rules, and may care enough to want things to be done correctly, but Dave has absolutely no access to the people who would need to review tape and make the decision.  No, the people who actually call and get through are almost certainly people with direct emails or cell phone numbers for the decision-makers on site.  Those same people will still get through if they see something questionable.  The only difference will be the press release won't mention a call in, just the new Video Review process.

 

A bigger issue for me is the elimination of any consequence for signing an incorrect card.  There are certainly players on every tour whose "integrity" isn't as high as we'd like to see.  For those guys, their best course of action is to penalize themselves only when they can be certain someone else has seen the infraction.  If there's any doubt, don't mention it, and hope it goes unnoticed.  The worst that happens, from their standpoint, it DOES get noticed, and they get the penalty they should have had anyway.  Of course the player will claim that he was unaware that an infraction occurred, claim that he didn't understand that rule (ignorance gets rewarded).  The best result for that player, and the worst for the game, is that they get away with it.  As it was prior to the change, an additional two strokes is pretty good motivation to be sure you get it right before you sign your card.  That motivation has been removed.

[10shot]

Until every group has live feed video no review. I feel this is the only fair way to police the rules from a 2nd party view point. Gona need a small army of refs and 46 monitors.

Why should only the 2 or 3 top groups be watched. Now Lexi, she always needs to be reviewed...

 

 

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[DaveP043]

Until every group has live feed video no review.

I simply can't agree.  To put your viewpoint just a little differently, you want the tournament officials to ignore clear evidence that a rules infraction has occurred.  My view, I believe its important to get the rulings right every time its possible.  The players in the last few groups have a way to avoid penalties....learn the rules, and play by the rules.

[mooremikea]

I was never a fan of the call from home rules infractions so I am glad to see it gone.  It seems like there will be officials looking at the videos if anything looks close to an infraction.  This should help keep everyone honest.  

 

DaveP043 makes some good points on less motivation for the player to get the score correct the first time.  If a player has too many unreported violations should there be a fine?  

[Kenny B]

Golf has always been an honorable game.  When a player committed an infraction, or think the may have committed one, they called it.  The playing partners were responsible for ensuring that rules were not violated to preserve the integrity of the game and protect others in the competition.  This was before television, well maybe closeup slow-motion television.  At some point in time the players lost that ability because many didn't know the rules.  Watch players today on TV; when a player is hitting their shot, the other players are not paying attention, mostly concerned about their own next shot.  Most infractions will likely go unnoticed.  Lexi was the last to putt in her group.  Did the other players and caddies notice anything or report it?  No.  Should they have?  Difficult to say.  

 

I applaud the USGA for their decision.  Technology has given us a closeup view of play that the game has never had before.  With it comes consequences.  The USGA never adapted to that technology, until now.  If broadcasters are going to show high definition, closeup shots and actions by players, then the rules officials have to be prepared to address the consequences of that coverage.  Rules officials watching the feed seems the best approach to me, as long as any infraction issues are resolved quickly so that the results do not have an inordinate impact on all of the players.

[DaveP043]

Golf has always been an honorable game.  When a player committed an infraction, or think the may have committed one, they called it.  The playing partners were responsible for ensuring that rules were not violated to preserve the integrity of the game and protect others in the competition.  

 

.......  Rules officials watching the feed seems the best approach to me, as long as any infraction issues are resolved quickly so that the results do not have an inordinate impact on all of the players.

I think part of the issue currently is a reluctance of players to "call out" another player for breaking a rule.  They don't want to be "that guy."  I also see some indications that the players are kind of playing with their own adaptations of the actual rules.  Remember then Mickelson said that a "number of players are pretty loose with how they mark their ball."  Have you ever heard of anyone penalized for that on the Men's tour?  Did you ever hear of Phil actually taking a step to encourage (or force) his playing partner to follow the rules?  Their playing partners look the other way.  Another indication is the "backstopping" that goes on, players leaving their ball in a spot on the green so that it has the potential to assist their fellow-competitor's shot.  There appears to be an unspoken agreement to help each other out, the hell with actually "protecting the field".  In my view, its this type of behavior that makes video review and enforcement even more important moving forward.

 

And I still hate that the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard has been essentially eliminated.  As late as 2016 the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard was DQ.  Only the most recent set of rules allowed the 2-stroke penalty for "unknowingly" signing an incorrect card, and now even that penalty has been eliminated.  The best course of action under the new rules is to remain completely ignorant of all rules and penalties.  Then you can honestly say you didn't know your score is wrong.  

[10shot]

I simply can't agree. To put your viewpoint just a little differently, you want the tournament officials to ignore clear evidence that a rules infraction has occurred. My view, I believe its important to get the rulings right every time its possible. The players in the last few groups have a way to avoid penalties....learn the rules, and play by the rules.

As long as it is fair across the board. Only have 3 video feeds on the top players is not fair. I'm all for rules fair ones

 

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[tony@CIC]

I think the players just know that someone will be watching will be enough of a deterrent for that one oddball that intentionally violates the rules

 

 

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