The Rhein Gibson headcover incident

[JTexGolfer]

Just saw the video. Guy disrespects me like that we are throwing down on the course, I don't care what hole we're on. What a punk move.

[bens197]

I hate the rules of golf.

 

 

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[ole gray]

Just saw the video. Guy disrespects me like that we are throwing down on the course, I don't care what hole we're on. What a punk move

 

Now that would've bumped up the ratings! 

 

Yea I thought throwing the head cover at his caddy was crude rude and socially unacceptable.  I also thought the rule should have never been applied in the first place and I'm a firm believer 75 percent of them are crap calls.  Give the guy a penalty for an unplayable lie and not for his caddy picking up his ball after the fact.  

[GolfJunkie302]

Now that would've bumped up the ratings!

 

Yea I thought throwing the head cover at his caddy was crude rude and socially unacceptable. I also thought the rule should have never been applied in the first place and I'm a firm believer 75 percent of them are crap calls. Give the guy a penalty for an unplayable lie and not for his caddy picking up his ball after the fact.

I think he got two total, right? One for the hazard, one for the ruling?

 

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[ole gray]

I think he got two total, right? One for the hazard, one for the ruling?

 

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That was my conclusion and one too many.

 

 

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[Bags]

Have you guys seen this?

 

http://golfweek.com/2018/01/24/web-com-tour-player-throws-headcover-at-caddie-over-costly-and-mysterious-penalty/

 

Quick summary:

• Web.com player in the hunt for a tournament win, hooks ball into hazard on the last hole.
• Caddie picks up ball. Rules official assesses a stroke penalty because the caddie got the ball without explicit authorization from the player.
• Gibson drops and hits, nearly holes out. Grabs putter out of the bag, pulls headcover, and flings the headcover at the caddie. Apparently at the same time, fires the caddie.
• Gibson finishes 3rd instead of T-2, costing him about $12,000.
• Caddie posts summary of the event on YouTube, including his argument that the penalty stroke should not have been assessed.

My thoughts: first, events like this are always interesting to learn more obscure rules. It looks like the caddie is correct: there should not have been a penalty here. Provision is made in the decisions of golf for circumstances in which a drop is obvious that a caddie can pick the ball up without penalty.

 

Second, Gibson comes out looking really bad. His anger is understandable, but any circumstance in which a person treats a subordinate (caddie, waitstaff, etc.) in a demeaning manner is a telling revelation of that person's character. Fire the guy: fine, that makes sense. But throwing things at him on the course? Childish and way over the line.

agree 100%

 

 

Bags

[Kanoito]

It doesn't matter who got the rules wrong (caddie, player or official).

You just don't treat someone like that because of a mistake, especially someone working for you.

 

If your cleaning staff breaks a dish from your kitchen, do you throw a pot at her?

If your gardener kills a plant by mistake, do you run him over with the lawn mower?

You get the drill...

 

Some gentleman's game this is... pfff...

[sixcat]

"Contrary to what Brandon said, I did not find the ball," Duncan said. "(Gibson) was kind of looking in the high grass or whatever, and I turned around and said to Rhein that we had found the ball. And the caddie had actually sort of gotten behind me, and Rhein's now walking toward me, and I turn around and that's when (Davis) picked the ball up.

"And before I can even say a word, now Rhein goes, 'Well, I guess I can't play it now."

 

This is the direct quote from Jim Duncan, the rules official who imposed the penalty.  Pretty cut and dry.  The additional stroke penalty was justified and accurately applied by Mr. Duncan!

[HeathS16]

Pretty embarrassing incident all the way around. Gibson was at OC my freshman and sophomore year of college. Fiery guy for sure but didn't expect something like this... very disappointing.

Kind of a weird event all together with the 5 different stories out there.

 

 

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[Brian A]

Total crap move by Gibson.

 

Even if it truly was the caddies fault there were how many other strokes he took that weren't perfect? The caddie didnt help but he certainly isnt at full blame for 2n to 3rd drop. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

This is the direct quote from Jim Duncan, the rules official who imposed the penalty. Pretty cut and dry. The additional stroke penalty was justified and accurately applied by Mr. Duncan!

There's certainly going to be an element of he said/he said in this. In the main, I'm inclined to trust the account of the rules official, as he has less obvious incentive to shade the story in his own direction.

 

But the takeaway on the actual situation, for me, remains the problem in the rules decision itself, as written. If the rules allow for the caddie to pick up a ball without direct verbal authorization, but then also say that if there's any doubt (which there always will be without direct verbal authorization), then ruling should go against the player, how could a caddie ever be justified in picking up a ball? The rule is self-defeating.

 

Lesson: don't pick up a ball if you're not the player.

 

Lesson 2: seriously, don't throw things on the course, and especially don't throw things at people. We're supposed to be gentlemen—if that standard's too high, let's at least be adults.

[L.I. Rich]

Total crap move by Gibson.

 

Even if it truly was the caddies fault there were how many other strokes he took that weren't perfect? The caddie didnt help but he certainly isnt at full blame for 2n to 3rd drop.

 

Correct. IIRC, Gibson 3-putt 17 for bogey to remain 1 back, then from position A on 18, hooked it into the hazard. I mean the ball pinballed between the rocks something like six times before settling in way down the hill.

[cksurfdude]

Sadly, so many people blame a team, a player, etc. on a last shot, last play, or here, the last hole. It is the player's fault, and only the player's fault for having finished second. Had he made a few more putts, hit a couple more greens, even hit a few more fairways, this happening on the final hole would not have mattered.

 

As a coach, I used to remind my teams had we given up one or two fewer offense rebounds, played defense and shut them down on a few more possessions , we would not have lost a game on the last second shot. Same applies here. Don't blame the caddie for the $12,000 loss, blame yourself for not having taken care of YOUR business.

 

 

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Well said, and excellent summary. Every shot counts, starting from the first swing on the first tee .. .. it's just that when it gets closer between competitors (or: teams) towards the finish it gets so much more attention (especially from on-air commentators who love for these types of moments to overly dramatize the proceedings....).

[HardcoreLooper]

I've never been a caddie before and don't know anyone who has.  They must have some fantastic stories about who is great to work for and who is a total a-hole.  Maybe there's a good book or something...although, unless they're retired they probably don't want to go public to ensure their job security.  We've seen some high profile firings lately.

 

Has anyone been a caddie and experienced anything like this? 

Not necessarily a PGA tour caddie but just a caddie in general.

I caddied at a club from 8th grade until the summer I graduated from college. Where do I begin...

[KCLeo12]

Man when I first saw this I couldn't believe someone would disrespect their caddy like that. Then I found out he fired him. I don't care how mad you are you can't act like that. Then to later find out that the caddy wasn't wrong at all makes it all even worse. I am not sure how I would react if I was the caddy but I can tell you he wouldn't have even been able to finish the round.

[tony@CIC]

Maybe next time Rhein misses a putt, maybe his caddy should throw a towel at him (just kidding). Certainly he is not representative of the game.

 

 

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[Bags]

terrible count to 10 deep breath - caddie did the wrong thing but player needs to treat people better. Bottom line I bet player never told caddie never ever touch my ball ever ever - need to go over all contingencies All

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

Jim Duncan was the rules official who assessed the penalty. He is the head rules official for the Web.com Tour and is extremely knowledgeable and experienced. He stood by his ruling on Morning Drive this morning. He also refuted, on Morning Drive, that he found the ball as the caddie has claimed.

 

It seems to me, the caddie screwed up and isn't willing to admit so.

Actually, Duncan never answered the question that the penalty should be rescinded. He only said what he was told to say by the tour. Which was the same story he told everyone. If the ball is dead under 2 rocks, and the rules official saw that, what makes anyone think that the ball was not going to be picked up and a drop taken. The rules official, was wrong in the penalty, and I don't care who the rules guy is. 26.1/9 should be aploed based on the officials statement and the statement of the caddie. The both know the ball was under rocks and was unplayable. These rules officials have too much authority. This panalty is bull and should be rescinded by the tour.

[sixcat]

Actually, Duncan never answered the question that the penalty should be rescinded. He only said what he was told to say by the tour. Which was the same story he told everyone. If the ball is dead under 2 rocks, and the rules official saw that, what makes anyone think that the ball was not going to be picked up and a drop taken. The rules official, was wrong in the penalty, and I don't care who the rules guy is. 26.1/9 should be aploed based on the officials statement and the statement of the caddie. The both know the ball was under rocks and was unplayable. These rules officials have too much authority. This panalty is bull and should be rescinded by the tour.

As the two rules in question are written, they were applied absolutely correctly. One could argue, the rules need to be reworked or reworded, but the application of the rule, as it exists today, was handled appropriately.

 

The rules of golf don't allow for the caddie to make decisions for the player. The player-caddie relationship was never intended to operate that way. The caddie screwed up.

 

Agree to disagree!

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

As the two rules in question are written, they were applied absolutely correctly. One could argue, the rules need to be reworked or reworded, but the application of the rule, as it exists today, was handled appropriately.

 

The rules of golf don't allow for the caddie to make decisions for the player. The player-caddie relationship was never intended to operate that way. The caddie screwed up.

 

Agree to disagree!

 

 

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26.1/9 is the correct rule to apply, and it was not. That's the issue. The official saw the ball since in his words, he found it, and he also knows there is no way possible to play the shot from where it was. I do agree that the player should have been the one picking he ball up, but he decide to storm off. So it really is his fault in the grand scheme of things, and should never have come down to a ruling.

[sixcat]

26.1/9 is the correct rule to apply, and it was not. That's the issue. The official saw the ball since in his words, he found it, and he also knows there is no way possible to play the shot from where it was. I do agree that the player should have been the one picking he ball up, but he decide to storm off. So it really is his fault in the grand scheme of things, and should never have come down to a ruling.

Whether the official “knows there is no way possible to play the shot” is speculative and irrelevant to the rule or ruling. Neither the official nor the caddie can make that decision for the player!

 

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

Whether the official “knows there is no way possible to play the shot” is speculative and irrelevant to the rule or ruling. Neither the official nor the caddie can make that decision for the player!

 

 

 

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Rule 26.1/9 says that if there is no doubt, or it is reasonable to assume front the players actions or statements that the player was going to play his next shot from outside the hazard, there is no penalty. So if the ball is under 2 rocks, which was seen by the official, the caddie, and the player, and there looked as though it was reasonable from his reaction that he could not play the shot. There should be no penalty. Also, from the caddies statement, they had already chosen where they were going to drop.

[sixcat]

Rule 26.1/9 says that if there is no doubt, or it is reasonable to assume front the players actions or statements that the player was going to play his next shot from outside the hazard, there is no penalty. So if the ball is under 2 rocks, which was seen by the official, the caddie, and the player, and there looked as though it was reasonable from his reaction that he could not play the shot. There should be no penalty. Also, from the caddies statement, they had already chosen where they were going to drop.

Again, we'll agree to disagree.  You obviously believe the caddie/player.  I do not!  

 

Several people have refuted the caddie/player claim that a drop area had been selected.  Duncan even reveals the caddie had ball-in-hand while Gibson was still searching in the high grass several yards away with Duncan between the two.  The images from the Morning Drive clip prior to Duncan's interview seem to support Duncan rather than Davis beginning around 0.30 of the linked video.  So, if Gibson hadn't even made it to the ball in the rocks, how had a drop area been decided?

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/official-disputes-caddies-version-gibson-penalty

 

Furthermore, USGA Decision 26-1/9 also states "any doubt should be resolved against the player".  Given the nature of this thread, and the ones similar on other sites, doubt exists!

[GolfJunkie302]

Again, we'll agree to disagree. You obviously believe the caddie/player. I do not!

 

Several people have refuted the caddie/player claim that a drop area had been selected. Duncan even reveals the caddie had ball-in-hand while Gibson was still searching in the high grass several yards away with Duncan between the two. The images from the Morning Drive clip prior to Duncan's interview seem to support Duncan rather than Davis beginning around 0.30 of the linked video. So, if Gibson hadn't even made it to the ball in the rocks, how had a drop area been decided?

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/official-disputes-caddies-version-gibson-penalty

 

Furthermore, USGA Decision 26-1/9 also states "any doubt should be resolved against the player". Given the nature of this thread, and the ones similar on other sites, doubt exists!

Here is my understanding of the situation: caddie finds the ball. Player sees the lie. Player walks away muttering expletives (he's essentially saying, "shoot, we can't play that."). Caddie picks up ball. Situation explodes.

 

IMO, the player provided the caddie witu sufficient consent to go ahead and pick up the ball.

 

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[sixcat]

Here is my understanding of the situation: caddie finds the ball. Player sees the lie. Player walks away muttering expletives (he's essentially saying, "shoot, we can't play that."). Caddie picks up ball. Situation explodes.

 

IMO, the player provided the caddie witu sufficient consent to go ahead and pick up the ball.

 

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But that isn't the way the rules official on-site explains what happened in the video provided.  In the Morning Drive clip, Duncan explains when Gibson reached the rocks, Davis already had ball-in-hand and the images provided by Morning Drive appear to verify what Duncan is saying.  Watch to the clip from Morning Drive I provided above from the 4:00 mark to about the 5:05 mark. 

[GolfJunkie302]

But that isn't the way the rules official on-site explains what happened in the video provided. In the Morning Drive clip, Duncan explains when Gibson reached the rocks, Davis already had ball-in-hand and the images provided by Morning Drive appear to verify what Duncan is saying. Watch to the clip from Morning Drive I provided above from the 4:00 mark to about the 5:05 mark.

That is, however, the way the caddie himself explained it in his YouTube video. If you haven't seen it, check it out. It's worth watching.

 

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[Miboy62]

Even if it was my fault. I'd still toss his sticks in the drink if he threw that cover at me.

I would of tossed them into the drink helicopter style while smiling at Gibson.

[sixcat]

That is, however, the way the caddie himself explained it in his YouTube video. If you haven't seen it, check it out. It's worth watching.

 

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I saw both, actually. Seemed a bit self serving to me. As I said earlier, the caddie has an agenda, in my opinion.

 

Agree to disagree. I'm done with this topic!

 

 

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