Jack Nicklaus vs The Golf Ball

[golfinnut 920]

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/nicklaus-eager-help-usga-rein-golf-ball-distance/

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/nicklaus-titleist-controls-game/

 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus wants to reign in the golf ball, bring it back "20%" .... back to when they used the wound golf ball. 

 

He says it's taking too long to play golf.  People don't have enough time to play golf, 5 hours or more.  

 

I don't think the golf ball has anything to do with the slow play today in golf.  We could go on for days about it but ... 

 

Calling out Titleist?  Really.  Just because "they control the game."

 

Thoughts?  

[jlukes 10,538]

And the long hitters will still dominate.

 

Love Jack, but I never really thought of him as another good voice for the game. He always comes off as an old man screaming at kids to get off his lawn

[Mr_Theoo 3,013]

And the long hitters will still dominate.

 

Love Jack, but I never really thought of him as another good voice for the game. He always comes off as an old man screaming at kids to get off his lawn

The long hitters would dominate more because now those guys on your who hit it sub 300 carry are getting even longer approach shots into greens. So even if you take 50 yards away from DJ he will still have an advantage over the zach Johnsons of the tour

[downlowkey 3,021]

From a "Basics Principles of Physics" perspective, Jack has a point re: increased distance as it relates to slow play.

 

More specifically, it is so much easier to hit a fairway with a ball that travels 250 yds than it is to hit the same fairway with a ball that travels 275 yds. If you'll concede the prior point but don't see Jack's reasoning yet, stay with me. In response to increases in ball distance, older designs have added tee boxes and newer designs are almost all 7000+ yards; but fairways haven't become appreciably wider. The same 250 yard mishit that put you on the right edge of the fairway now deposits you 5 yards into the deep stuff. And unfortunately, the 25 yard distance "advantage" has been absorbed by design changes so you're not any closer to the green than before the modern ball and now your lie is terrible.

 

The theory: a foursome playing at 6100 yards will score lower and subsequently play faster than the same foursome playing the same course at 6700 yards with a ball that travels 10% further.

[jaskanski 1,007]

As much as I respect Jack and his achievements in the game, I really do get tired of his constant axe to grind with the golf ball.

Just in case Jack has a short memory, it's worth noting that at a time when he was most prolific he was also hitting it 20 yards past his nearest competitor. He was also instrumental in the proliferation of metal headed drivers and let's not forget his role in manicured golf course design either.

And he wants to reign the ball back now? I don't think so Jack.

Unless I'm mistaken, the golf ball is regulated by size, weight and initial velocity under the rules of golf and records show that average golf ball distances haven't really changed over the last 20+ years for the majority of the golfing population.

What has changed is the golf club has gotten lighter, shafts have become more precisely consistent, courses have become firmer and more manicured to look great on TV and the professionals who play for ever increasing purses have become stronger and more physically conditioned to compete for such large prizes. 

Laying the blame at the ball as the root cause for making courses look obsolete and TV viewing to be boring is futile at best and frankly, a bit of an insult given the history of it since he picked up his fist major.

It's a different world Jack - but it's one you were instrumental in creating. The only thing you didn't have a hand in altering - you guessed it - the humble golf ball.

[tony@CIC 11,015]

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/nicklaus-eager-help-usga-rein-golf-ball-distance/

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/nicklaus-titleist-controls-game/

 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus wants to reign in the golf ball, bring it back "20%" .... back to when they used the wound golf ball.

 

He says it's taking too long to play golf. People don't have enough time to play golf, 5 hours or more.

 

I don't think the golf ball has anything to do with the slow play today in golf. We could go on for days about it but ...

 

Calling out Titleist? Really. Just because "they control the game."

 

Thoughts?

Don't understand how a golf ball at 80% would shorten the time to play the game. A ball that goes less distance means more strokes. What am I missing here?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[revkev 18,146]

@Tony - he's assuming shorter courses.

 

@ Downlowkey those numbers would work except no amateurs by group actually average those distances. The scratch group averages right around 250, a 20 percent roll back mean ...200.

 

He's crazy - Jack that is. By his numbers the average tour driving distance would go back to hickory shaft days.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[hckymeyer 5,909]

I put this in the last thread about the distance problem, but I'll repeat it here.  From a podcast I listened to with Dean Snell talking about the ball and distance problem.

 

There are 4 parts to "distance problem" (personally I don't see a problem)  

• The ball itself (yes initial velocity, weight and size have been capped for 40 years, but today's ball can be engineered to reduce friction from the air and to decrease spin on the driver while maintaining spin with wedges and approach shots.)
• Physicality and fitness of today's modern golfer
• Driver & Shaft technology advancements
• Course conditions and maintenance 

Of those 4 things one of them isn't going away.  Modern pro's will continue to push the envelope of fitness and strength.  2 of those things will cost a lot of money to change.  Balls and equipment, to change those you have to completely re-engineer the ball, or the head, or the shaft to decrease distance.  The cost to re-tool the plants and re-engineer the product would be enormous for the OEM's.  Add in the absolute fact that no amateur is going to buy a product that intentionally goes a shorter distance, and there is zero incentive for an OEM to make this happen.  Not to mention all the pro's get their equipment for free anyway, and now it will be harder to use pro's to promote product because they aren't using the same thing we amateur's are using anymore.

 

That leave one thing, course conditions.  You want to make drives shorter, make the grass longer.  What could possible be easier or cheaper than just not mowing?  Let the fairway and rough grow a little bit.  I'm not talking US Open rough on every course, but if the rough is an inch or so longer it becomes more penal and there is a greater reward for hitting fairways.  Let the fairway grown an extra 1/4 or 1/2" and you cut down on the 40+yds of roll out we were seeing in Hawaii.

 

Last thing.  Implement a damn shot clock in golf!  When it's your turn and you reach your ball the clock starts.  Don't hit the shot before your time is up?  First ones a warning, 2nd ones a stroke penalty.  Give everyone two 30 second extensions per round for a tricky read or decision.  And here's the key, make it universal and enforce it!  I guarantee if players know it's gonna cost them a stroke if they don't hit the ball within 2 minutes of reaching it they will speed the F*** up.

[HardcoreLooper 3,401]

Preach, Meyer!

 

And again, we ams generally don't get to play courses that are shaved to within a millimeter of their lives for optimal performance for a single week.

[hckymeyer 5,909]

Preach, Meyer!

 

And again, we ams generally don't get to play courses that are shaved to within a millimeter of their lives for optimal performance for a single week.

No kidding.  My home course is generally one of the nicer maintained courses in the area.  We always speed up the greens for a couple of events each year and everyone loves it.  I asked the Sup once how come we can't have them like that all the time.  He said the cost of mowing and rolling that often would be too high for the course to maintain.  Also the level of traffic we get on the green would just trash them if they were always that short and fast.

 

Just another example of how the pro game has almost nothing in common with the amateur game other than they are both called golf and played on a course.

[ole gray 15,440]

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/nicklaus-eager-help-usga-rein-golf-ball-distance/

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/nicklaus-titleist-controls-game/

 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus wants to reign in the golf ball, bring it back "20%" .... back to when they used the wound golf ball. 

 

He says it's taking too long to play golf.  People don't have enough time to play golf, 5 hours or more.  

 

I don't think the golf ball has anything to do with the slow play today in golf.  We could go on for days about it but ... 

 

Calling out Titleist?  Really.  Just because "they control the game."

 

Thoughts?  

 

I'm a Jack fan however I think the old boy has been snorting too many cow paddies or something.  Especially if he's talking about making the average amateur's balls shorter.  Hell us old guys need more length not less and besides I think golf is doing just fine the way it is with the current equipment.   

[Flipper554 880]

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/nicklaus-eager-help-usga-rein-golf-ball-distance/

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/nicklaus-titleist-controls-game/

 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus wants to reign in the golf ball, bring it back "20%" .... back to when they used the wound golf ball. 

 

He says it's taking too long to play golf.  People don't have enough time to play golf, 5 hours or more.  

 

I don't think the golf ball has anything to do with the slow play today in golf.  We could go on for days about it but ... 

 

Calling out Titleist?  Really.  Just because "they control the game."

 

Thoughts?

 

Jack's been beating that drum for ever. Sure dial it back for the Pros, I don't care. As for us amateurs make that sucker fly, we foot the bill anyway give us some extra yards, and while you're at it make the hole bigger.

[GolfSpyC 215]

If the USGA et al did decide to roll the ball back it could be a colossal SNAFU. 

 

As already stated, there are myriad factors which contribute to how far the current ball travels, not the least of which is how courses are typically set up. Then, there's the whole bifurcation dialogue to navigate. If there's a canon of golf tradition, the "one set of rules" might be entry #1 or #2. If there was a rollback for any select group (good luck drawing that line) it would absolutely contradict what the ruling bodies have said all along. 

 

This is an issue requiring some serious navigational skills and based on previous situations, I not sure the USGA is equipped to handle it.

[JoshAndersonGolf 2,466]

I have a theory. Let's narrow the fairways and not cut them as short. Our fairways at our club at cut at .65”. Let's see you get 30 yards of roll. Not happening. Sure when you play on the best cut grass and dried out your distance gains are large. No need to bring the ball back. Let's make the courses the way they should be.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[mooremikea 406]

For the amateur encouraging them to play shorter tees should help speed up the game.  The ball should not change because most amateurs don't hit it that far anyway.  

 

Something needs to be done for the professional game to keep the driver distance under control.  Some of the statics show that the yardage increase has not been that much over the last 10 years but I am not buying that.  Some of the tournaments with wet fairways and no role the long hitters are still hitting over 300 yards.  

 

If the fairways start to narrow at a certain yardage and grow the rough longer seems to be the only way to roll things back with the current ball.  If they were going to create a new ball it would have to penalize the long player more than the shorter hitters.  I don't even know that is possible to do.  If you ball speed right now is over 160 then you get a  20% hit and under 160 it is more like a 5-10% hit.  

 

For slow play I think that the players should be able to use some sort of technology and have a shot clock.  Instead of the player and the caddie standing over the ball for 2 to 3 minutes trying to figure out a yardage they look at a tablet with all of the numbers they could ever want.  No math, no pacing off distances (especially when they pace something off all the way to the green).  Getting the exact yardage is a skill but I would guess most of the time they are getting the numbers correct but it takes too long.  The shot clock would be displayed on the tablet so the player and the caddie would know what was up.  Give the players a couple "extended" shot clocks each round for difficult shots where they really need more time.  The strategy on when to use these could be another thing for the fans to watch.  

 

Just my 2 cents. 

[Berg Ryman 2,293]

The only way I can get behind this is if this leads to bifurcation of the rules. One set for pro tournaments, one set for amateurs. If not, then it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

You roll the ball back 20%, it kills the game for most amateurs. Now obviously the ball is not the be all end all to the distance equation, but if your local dude sees that this ruling is coming and he only hits it 200 yards off the tee, he's now thinking he's going 160 off the tee and that's no fun for any of us. Participation will drop out among your most ardent supporters, namely the 50+ age group who doesn't have the power any more and turnout will suffer. This is dumb, just dumb.

[hckymeyer 5,909]

3 years ago the USGA was all about teeing it forward.  Now they want us to not hit it as far.

 

Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.

[JTexGolfer 1,033]

I'm all for rolling back the pro ball if they feel the need, but that would suck if I lost 20% distance, and it would kill the enjoyment for lots of golfers I think. I wish they would just setup the pro courses with longer grass and narrower fairways. Hell have progressive rough where it's longer the further down the fairway you go.

[Kenny B 16,113]

I guess I don't see a problem with the distance tour players are hitting the ball.  No matter how I look at it, those guys are freaks!  It seems every week someone goes low for a round.  More players are shooting 59 these days, but why is that a bad thing??  Don't we all want to see birdies and eagles?  The difference today from yesterday is that anyone that tees it up can go low at anytime.  The top guys in driving distance hit driver/wedge a lot of the time, but for the most part the scores are about the same. The biggest factors in scoring these days are the weather and course conditions.    Want higher scores?  Change the course playing conditions.  

 

Jack is wrong about the ball.  Get off that horse Jack!  If the ball is changed, it will be a boon to the illegal golf ball market and OEMs will be forced to make one too!

[HardcoreLooper 3,401]

With all of the REAL problems that golf does have right now, why does Nicklaus decide to go after this? Ugh. Keep one set of rules (that's what makes the game special), and if a course wants to play soft and slow to tone down the long ball, so be it. If they want to pinch in landing areas at 290, go for it. If they just want to be Harbor Town, be Harbor Town (it works for them).

 

In the meantime, find a real problem to solve, Jack!