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Perhaps, on some level, the 20somethngs currently dominating the scoreboards may be changing the personality of professional golf.   On the course, they want to win; they want to beat each other.   But off the course, somewhat, they are a new breed of sorts.   They have formed friendship, they support each other.  Maybe, that support filters to the actions of the fans when it may impact the play of their competitors, yet friends.   Unknowingly, they may be assuring that golf remains a gentleman's game for both players and fans.

 

Regarding the Masters, it surely is perceived as an "elitist" event.   But I think such has more to do with the membership rooster of Augusta National and their personal net worth.   However, as a tournament, I'm not sure that the Masters is any more elitist than any other professional tournament.  All of them have elitist characteristics.   The people playing in the pro-ams are not your average Joe golfer.  They are the corporate or other entity leaders for whom the related entity is picking up the tab.   The people one sees in those pavilions scattered around the course are not average Joe golfer but guests of those renting them.  Even those seen in the upper decks of 16 at Scotsdale are guests of those organizations renting them.  Many of the average Joes  get there before the gates open to find a good seat.   Most of those one sees standing behind the ropes at the tournaments are those that have purchase grounds only tickets.   Professional golf is a professional sport, so follow the money. 

 

Additionally, I think Augusta National deserves some appreciation for its support of the game.  It's sponsorship of the drive, chip and putt youth competition.   Its promotion of golf through Latin America tour, its champion plays in the Masters.   I appreciate that the finalist in the USGA Amateur Championship gets invited to the Masters.  

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These prima donnas make a living playing a game that they'd likely pay to play if they didn't have a tour card. They're there for our entertainment. I agree in a certain amount of decorum, however these sports entertainers need to grow a thicker skin.

As much as I wish it were, this isn't 1950 anymore.

 

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To me, this is a terrible way to look at sports. You should appreciate the players for their greatness and awe at their abilities. Not throw peanuts at them and tell them to dance like little monkeys. I think fans can really overstep their boundaries sometimes. Players are people, the same as anyone else. 

 

You realize that the majority of guys on tour do not play golf for fun in their spare time? They think of it as work. Or working on their craft. I know that I've heard Rory, DJ, Speith, JT and Day all say this. They may love golf and I'm sure none would change their life to be without golf but most of them think of it as work.

 

 

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Lots of good posts here. Once again, it's hard to say enough about having a good forum like this.

 

The first thing I'd want to insist on is that my goal isn't to pile on Justin Thomas. From the followup conversation, I want to retract my "fratboy" comment; that isn't the right way of saying what I want to say. Some of the dress discussion illustrates this: I tend to think that JT is among the classier guys on Tour in dress.

 

What I'm getting at is more his embrace of the whole "No Laying Up" ethos. Again, don't misunderstand: I find much of the NLU stuff very entertaining. The whole "tour sauce" concept is very funny.

 

The problem arises, in my estimation, when "tour sauce" goes from being something that a viewer observed to be something that is done on purpose. If you ever listen to the podcast, JT is considered NLU's ambassador. So when he hits a drive off line and signals it with his club, he is not unaware that he's striking the logo pose.

 

Again, I'm not against fun :) There's a place for this. But the NLU ethos is a kind of over the top swagger, which JT very much embraces.

 

It's why a clip like this gets a ton of traction:

 

 

Someone asked why JT would drop an f-bomb if he knew he was on air and would be fined. The reason I don't think it is impossible that he would do so is that such an outburst is completely on-brand. Just look at the responses on Twitter: while some are complaining to him, there is a large segment of his fanbase that celebrates just that kind of thing. For them, that's part of his appeal. A PGA Tour fine, of whatever amount, may well just be the cost of doing business.

 

My point remains this: it's hard for the Tour guys to project that kind of image while expecting the crowds to remain unchanged. I do think the guy that was heckling JT was out of line. Frankly, given the fuller explanation, I'm not convinced he was out of line to have the guy tossed. I suppose it's ironic that JT apologized for the thing I think he was probably right about :)

This has literally nothing to do with this conversation, but I've said that same thing many a time when I've hit a good shot that looks right at the stick. "Talk dirty to me."

So, for the record, JT stole this one from me  :lol: 

 

Yes I talk to my ball more than I should...

 

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This has literally nothing to do with this conversation, but I've said that same thing many a time when I've hit a good shot that looks right at the stick. "Talk dirty to me."

So, for the record, JT stole this one from me  :lol:

 

Yes I talk to my ball more than I should...

 

 

For your sake, I hope you get a good cut of the royalties :)

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Back @sixcat

 

Disagreeing with the Master's being the “greatest tournament” was not directed at you.

 

But since you've brought it up again exactly which of the TPC courses is a terrible course?

 

When courses don't work or a hole on a course doesn't work, the boys on tour howl, it gets jettisoned or redesigned.

 

I've played four TPC courses as well as Pebble, Bethpage, Whistling, Black Wolf Run and a number of others. The TPC courses hold up quite well in that company - certainly Sawgrass does.

 

So which one is so terrible?

 

I suppose we will have to differ on fans. As an earlier poster stated when I watch on TV there are guys that I will root against. Golfers need to develop thicker skin IMO.

 

There is nothing wrong with a fan criticizing a player for hitting a bad shot, after the fact or cheering a miss if he so desires. It happens in other sports all the time. So long as the fan doesn't cross the line by disrupting play, being personal or using obscenities it should be a non-issue. In fact if the player is using audible obscenities that could be in bounds too. I wouldn't do it but it wouldn't bother me either. It's life, get used to it, it happens in every other public service type job out there, including other sports - there it often happens while the player is performing.

 

Heck it happens to me every week in my job. I'm with people at the worst moments of their lives. Last week I got dressed down ten minutes before having to conduct a service in front of several hundred people because the hue of the projector was too purple. The guy who did it is going through a nasty divorce. Even if he weren't I have to take it. I do, don't take it personally and move on.

 

 

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Personally I think he is better than JS at golf. But his temper gets to him. I really don't care if he drops the F Bomb, I probably use it at least 5 times a day. Maybe not in public, but it doesn't bother me unless it's Scarface record beating or in front of kids... anyone's kids.

 

Can you imagine if they miked up the O Line on Sunday's? It would be very “entertaining” I bet.

 

The whole bro thing is what turns me off with these “new” guys. It's evident that golf was slammed down JS and JT's throat from day one. They look beat already and they're what 23/24? So they are pro golfers with no other life experience besides college, a lot like someone else we know he wears Red on Sunday's...

 

Social media is an odd creature and everyone seems to get on this generation about it. If all of those people saying things to him on Twitter were told to do so in person, maybe 5% actually would? Big bad guys behind our keyboards.

 

So I believe he is either

 

a. A complete jerk

 

Or

 

b. Genuine and young (will grow out of it)

 

Good for him on getting the dude tossed. Shouldn't have apologized.

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Back @sixcat

 

Disagreeing with the Master's being the “greatest tournament” was not directed at you.

 

But since you've brought it up again exactly which of the TPC courses is a terrible course?

 

When courses don't work or a hole on a course doesn't work, the boys on tour howl, it gets jettisoned or redesigned.

 

I've played four TPC courses as well as Pebble, Bethpage, Whistling, Black Wolf Run and a number of others. The TPC courses hold up quite well in that company - certainly Sawgrass does.

 

So which one is so terrible?

 

I suppose we will have to differ on fans. As an earlier poster stated when I watch on TV there are guys that I will root against. Golfers need to develop thicker skin IMO.

 

There is nothing wrong with a fan criticizing a player for hitting a bad shot, after the fact or cheering a miss if he so desires. It happens in other sports all the time. So long as the fan doesn't cross the line by disrupting play, being personal or using obscenities it should be a non-issue. In fact if the player is using audible obscenities that could be in bounds too. I wouldn't do it but it wouldn't bother me either. It's life, get used to it, it happens in every other public service type job out there, including other sports - there it often happens while the player is performing.

 

Heck it happens to me every week in my job. I'm with people at the worst moments of their lives. Last week I got dressed down ten minutes before having to conduct a service in front of several hundred people because the hue of the projector was too purple. The guy who did it is going through a nasty divorce. Even if he weren't I have to take it. I do, don't take it personally and move on.

 

 

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Architecturally speaking PGA National isn't a very good golf course. It's a tough golf course though. 

A lot of the courses played on tour aren't particularly good if I'm honest. 

TPC San Antonio isn't very good. TPC Louisiana. PGA West. Torrey Pines isn't very good but could be (great piece of land). TPC Four Seasons. TPC Summerlin. All come to mind as not very good golf courses. They are all kept in good condition but that isn't the same to me. I'm sure there are more but these came immediately to mind. 

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Back @sixcat

 

Disagreeing with the Master's being the “greatest tournament” was not directed at you.

 

But since you've brought it up again exactly which of the TPC courses is a terrible course?

 

When courses don't work or a hole on a course doesn't work, the boys on tour howl, it gets jettisoned or redesigned.

 

I've played four TPC courses as well as Pebble, Bethpage, Whistling, Black Wolf Run and a number of others. The TPC courses hold up quite well in that company - certainly Sawgrass does.

 

So which one is so terrible?

 

I suppose we will have to differ on fans. As an earlier poster stated when I watch on TV there are guys that I will root against. Golfers need to develop thicker skin IMO.

 

There is nothing wrong with a fan criticizing a player for hitting a bad shot, after the fact or cheering a miss if he so desires. It happens in other sports all the time. So long as the fan doesn't cross the line by disrupting play, being personal or using obscenities it should be a non-issue. In fact if the player is using audible obscenities that could be in bounds too. I wouldn't do it but it wouldn't bother me either. It's life, get used to it, it happens in every other public service type job out there, including other sports - there it often happens while the player is performing.

 

Heck it happens to me every week in my job. I'm with people at the worst moments of their lives. Last week I got dressed down ten minutes before having to conduct a service in front of several hundred people because the hue of the projector was too purple. The guy who did it is going through a nasty divorce. Even if he weren't I have to take it. I do, don't take it personally and move on.

 

 

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I wasn't sure if anything was directed at me or in general but you did quote me, verbatim, several times in your post.  We all get dressed down in our respective careers.  It's happened to me twice this morning.  Once, by a developer who can't grasp the concept, she is not my client.  The city in which her development project is taking place is my client.  The other, by her architect for similar reasons.  The common expression in my field applies, "it's an architects job to make it look pretty, it's an engineers job to make it work"!  It's not something I get bent out of shape over.  

 

TPC courses that were brought into the mix, such as The Old White, Harding Park and Sawgrass were never built with the "TPC model" in mind.  I don't consider them to be a part of the "TPC Model".  Those few notwithstanding, the rest, or at least the ones I have played, have been grossly overpriced and under-performing.  A list of the ones I have played....

  • Wakefield
  • Piper Glen
  • Four Seasons
  • Sugarloaf
  • Southwind
  • Potomac 
  • Craig Ranch

As I have stated before, my profession has afforded me certain opportunities I would have never otherwise had.  The previous list of courses I found to be vanilla, cookie-cutter, and lackluster with no sense of direction or purpose.  I grew up near Pinehurst so admittedly, my tastes are a bit biased.  Tour players seem to agree in large part.

 

http://golfweek.com/2017/03/21/the-worst-course-on-the-pga-tour-schedule-players-say/

 

https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/these-are-the-pga-tour-golf-courses-that-every-pro-hates.html/?a=viewall

 

http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/03/16/sports-illustrated-golfcom-anonymous-pga-tour-player-poll

 

Again, I argue, golf isn't "another sport".  Other sports are contested inside arenas and stadiums where fan interaction is minimal, at best.  Golf has set itself apart from the beginnings of the game to be held to a higher standard.  Fans are brought right up to the edges of the action taking place.  Fan interaction is unrivaled in sport.  Yet, when players are too busy or too tired or too "whatever" to sign hundreds of autographs, they are ridiculed, shamed and berated by fans and media alike for being self-centered, conceited or above reproach. 

 

You can't have it both ways.  If we are to hold players to a higher standard, we should be doing the same to the fans.  The spirit of the game has demanded it for hundreds of years.

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Architecturally speaking PGA National isn't a very good golf course. It's a tough golf course though.

A lot of the courses played on tour aren't particularly good if I'm honest.

TPC San Antonio isn't very good. TPC Louisiana. PGA West. Torrey Pines isn't very good but could be (great piece of land). TPC Four Seasons. TPC Summerlin. All come to mind as not very good golf courses. They are all kept in good condition but that isn't the same to me. I'm sure there are more but these came immediately to mind.

Torrey Pines?

 

You would be the first person that I've ever heard say that's not a very good course.

 

I've played PGA National we clearly disagree on the quality of that course. It's tough but it's a solid design.

 

I'm not keen on Bayhill and lots of people like that.

 

 

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@sixcat

 

I think you're making my point for me. Professional people are subject to all sorts of public criticism, much of it petty and unfair. We take it and move on. Often times we maintain strong relationship with our harshest critics. Why should a touring pro be exempt when no one else is.

 

I believe Sawgrass was the original TPC design. I've played it, River Highlands, Tampa and Scottsdale. They are all perfectly good layouts and they are hardly cookie cutter beyond the short par 4's at Scottsdale and CT.

 

However given that your point in of comparison is Pinehurst I will concede the point that all but Sawgrass pale in that comparison.

 

I think golf has issues precisely because it thinks it's exempt.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion this thread has spawned

 

 

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@sixcat

 

I think you're making my point for me. Professional people are subject to all sorts of public criticism, much of it petty and unfair. We take it and move on. Often times we maintain strong relationship with our harshest critics. Why should a touring pro be exempt when no one else is.

 

I believe Sawgrass was the original TPC design. I've played it, River Highlands, Tampa and Scottsdale. They are all perfectly good layouts and they are hardly cookie cutter beyond the short par 4's at Scottsdale and CT.

 

However given that your point in of comparison is Pinehurst I will concede the point that all but Sawgrass pale in that comparison.

 

I think golf has issues precisely because it thinks it's exempt.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion this thread has spawned

 

 

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If more civil conversation took place among dissenting views, this country would be in far better condition.  I am enjoying it also.

 

I think we both agree Justin Thomas (and several others) could stand to be a little less sensitive.  I think that's a common characteristic of the millennial generation.  That's not to say it's positive or negative, just an observation.  We have employed several 20-somethings who couldn't handle the occasional client outburst.  The truth is, most people have little idea what has to be achieved before virtually anything can go to construction.  And how many bureaucratic egos have to be stroked in the process.  Clients often don't understand, the process is measured in years, not months, weeks or days.

 

However, I certainly do not believe Thomas was out of line in having the guy removed.  Furthermore, I do not believe golf should be apologetic for holding itself, and those who participate, to a higher standard.  

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I'll draw a comparison with what happens in my workplace. If a member of the public verbally abuses someone working in my workplace, they are asked to stop, then if it continues a "Code Gray" is called and security comes to settle them down, usually with them leaving the building.

 

The incidence of health workers being verbally abused has gone through the roof over the last few years, and physical violence towards health workers has increased at an even greater rate. Quite often it is drug or alcohol related, but not always.

 

I don't have to put up with abuse in my work place, why should a tour pro? I'm certainly not against cheering after a bad shot, but keep it general and not personal.

 

Imagine if Justin Thomas went to this guys workplace and yelled directly at him. Pretty sure no one would think it was ok.

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I'll draw a comparison with what happens in my workplace. If a member of the public verbally abuses someone working in my workplace, they are asked to stop, then if it continues a "Code Gray" is called and security comes to settle them down, usually with them leaving the building.

 

The incidence of health workers being verbally abused has gone through the roof over the last few years, and physical violence towards health workers has increased at an even greater rate. Quite often it is drug or alcohol related, but not always.

 

I don't have to put up with abuse in my work place, why should a tour pro? I'm certainly not against cheering after a bad shot, but keep it general and not personal.

 

Imagine if Justin Thomas went to this guys workplace and yelled directly at him. Pretty sure no one would think it was ok.

 

Sometimes that happens:

 

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Torrey Pines?

 

You would be the first person that I've ever heard say that's not a very good course.

 

I've played PGA National we clearly disagree on the quality of that course. It's tough but it's a solid design.

 

I'm not keen on Bayhill and lots of people like that.

 

 

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Architecturally speaking, Torrey isn't a great golf course. It is just on a beautiful piece of property. I'm far from the only one to think that. In fact the players agree with me. Its one of their least favorite as well. In fact, a lot of the courses I mentioned are on these lists of the players least favorite and the worst courses on tour.

https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/photos-worst-tour-courses#6

http://golfweek.com/2017/03/21/the-worst-course-on-the-pga-tour-schedule-players-say/

http://www.golf.com/photos/worst-pga-tour-venues

http://www.golf.com/photos/5-best-and-5-worst-pga-tour-courses#10

https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/these-are-the-pga-tour-golf-courses-that-every-pro-hates.html/?a=viewall

 

PGA National is a difficult course and well conditioned. But that doesn't mean its a good golf course. Also doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play it. 

 

When I talk about good golf courses. I don't mean difficulty or conditioning or where it's located. I'm talking about the layout, course routing, and the strategy that's involved in playing the holes. There must be different ways to play each one. Different angles and consequences for each decision. Not just hit it as long and straight as possible and then try and wedge one on and make a putt. 

 

Edit: saw your response to Sixcat. TPC River highlands is an excellent course and so is Sawgrass. They are different than most of the TPC courses. Scottsdale isn't bad either. Tampa I can't remember at the moment, so I won't comment on it. 

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If more civil conversation took place among dissenting views, this country would be in far better condition. I am enjoying it also.

 

I think we both agree Justin Thomas (and several others) could stand to be a little less sensitive. I think that's a common characteristic of the millennial generation. That's not to say it's positive or negative, just an observation. We have employed several 20-somethings who couldn't handle the occasional client outburst. The truth is, most people have little idea what has to be achieved before virtually anything can go to construction. And how many bureaucratic egos have to be stroked in the process. Clients often don't understand, the process is measured in years, not months, weeks or days.

 

However, I certainly do not believe Thomas was out of line in having the guy removed. Furthermore, I do not believe golf should be apologetic for holding itself, and those who participate, to a higher standard.

I was going to avoid the millennial remarks because I have three such children and there are a number of millennials here. Thanks for recognizing that it is neither good nor bad but simply what it is.

 

To be clear I'm not stating that I think golf needs to be like a hoops game at Cameron Indoor Stadium. It is different. The players grow up hitting shots in silence. It would be categorically unfair to allow noise while a player is in the process of hitting a shot. It's the matter of after the shot that concerns me. JT is certainly happy if I tell, go get him or great shot. He should be able to handle a little jab from me as well or more accurately from the casual fan who doesn't know better or had a few too many and is having some fun.

 

I suspect we agree on that.

 

Golf will always be different because the space is so big and many of the fans do actually know how difficult it is to play plus some of the etiquette.

 

I'm going to take someone to his first tournament ever in a couple of weeks. That will be fun. I will be interested in his take on this discussion. He's a huge sports fan who loves to play golf but rarely watches it.

 

 

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Any married man will agree that sometimes you have to apologize even when you know you're right

 

 

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#WISDOM

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Architecturally speaking, Torrey isn't a great golf course. It is just on a beautiful piece of property. I'm far from the only one to think that. In fact the players agree with me. Its one of their least favorite as well. In fact, a lot of the courses I mentioned are on these lists of the players least favorite and the worst courses on tour.

https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/photos-worst-tour-courses#6

http://golfweek.com/2017/03/21/the-worst-course-on-the-pga-tour-schedule-players-say/

http://www.golf.com/photos/worst-pga-tour-venues

http://www.golf.com/photos/5-best-and-5-worst-pga-tour-courses#10

https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/these-are-the-pga-tour-golf-courses-that-every-pro-hates.html/?a=viewall

 

PGA National is a difficult course and well conditioned. But that doesn't mean its a good golf course. Also doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play it.

 

When I talk about good golf courses. I don't mean difficulty or conditioning or where it's located. I'm talking about the layout, course routing, and the strategy that's involved in playing the holes. There must be different ways to play each one. Different angles and consequences for each decision. Not just hit it as long and straight as possible and then try and wedge one on and make a putt.

 

Edit: saw your response to Sixcat. TPC River highlands is an excellent course and so is Sawgrass. They are different than most of the TPC course. Scottsdale isn't bad either. Tampa I can't remember at the moment, so I won't comment on it.

With all due respect there has to be an order to the courses in the Player's minds. The quote about no bad ones, except Torrey, was funny.

 

I'd remind everyone that Lee Trevino hated Augusta (probably still does).

 

From what I see of touring pros they tend to play most courses by hitting it long and then short irons in. PGA National stops that for them and forces choices. It also has a couple of Par 5's that are tough to hit in 2 but then do reward brave shots that are well executed.

 

I'm sure there's great diversity of opinion among players about their favorite and least favorite courses just as I'm sure there's a ranking among the TPCs. I agree with that.

 

I also know that there have been courses quietly “kicked out” because they aren't strong enough. I would guess that if they were a TPC they were reworked.

 

Personally I prefer Tampa to Scottsdale and River Highlands. It hosted a defunct Champion's tour event and I know the players loved it. A friend of mine and I differ to the point of not being able to talk about whether we prefer it or Bayou (my home course).

 

 

 

 

 

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Probably time to get a thread going on the behavior debacles at the end of yesterday's Honda Classic. For those catching up:

  • On 16: reports say that as Justin Thomas was approaching the 16th tee, a fan yelled, "I hope you hit it in the water." Following JT's drive, you can hear a guy yell, "Get in the bunker." The TV audio then picks up JT pointing the guy out in the crowd and implying that he's now going to be kicked out. I have not read either way whether the individual was, in fact, removed from the premises.
  • On 18: immediately after sinking his putt to win in a playoff, JT shouted an obscenity, clearly audible on the telecast, which CBS then inexplicably replayed.
OK, my thoughts. I loathe "mashed potatoes" guy. Golf is to have a level of refinement to it. And this is especially true at the higher levels of the game. Playing nine with your buddies at a local muni? There's room for a level of idiocy (so long as you're not disturbing everyone else). But the decorum of the game is worth preserving. Part of the value of sport, in general, is that it is a way of teaching (and revealing) character.

 

So I'm not going to defend the guy heckling JT.

 

But JT has put himself in a real bind here. He is absolutely contributing to a movement to make golf less rigid, more about a game for the "bros." The social media stuff, his embracing of being the "No Laying Up" poster boy, that kind of thing.

 

Now, in measure, this is fine. Golf is fun, and should be fun, and I like guys who don't take themselves too seriously.

 

But (my impression) JT gets this very backwards. He's allowed to have fun and make golf a joke—you must respect him and be on your best behavior. He can drop f-bombs and toss clubs, but you better not root for his ball to get in the bunker.

 

I can't see this getting better for him in the near future. The more he fights it, the more other idiots are going to hassle him. They now know they can get to him (though, in fairness, he did win the whole thing).

 

So I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good.

agree better to pin ears back and play - ask monty how staring at the fans worked out lol.

what really really bothered me was the disingenuous apology for swearing - jt I didnt think the tv camera s where on me - lets see 2 guy playoff on national tv and ur putting to win tournament sure tv camera probably pointed at faldo telling those awesome stories about his playing days. Come on jt terrible terrible terrible- Most people swear but not on national tv with kids watching - no way to spin jt swearing apology it was 100% disingenuous

 

 

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I'm sure there's great diversity of opinion among players about their favorite and least favorite courses just as I'm sure there's a ranking among the TPCs. I agree with that.

 

I also know that there have been courses quietly “kicked out” because they aren't strong enough. I would guess that if they were a TPC they were reworked.

 

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That's an interesting observation. Are you familiar with TPC Snoqualmie Ridge, the host course of the Boeing Classic on the Champions Tour? That course was "kicked out" last year (now it's The Club at Snoqualmie Ridge), but it still hosts the event. It's a private club, so I've only played there a couple of times. I think it's a really solid design. Great Jack Nicklaus layout with spectacular views. Not sure why it was released from the program. I also didn't know other TPCs were getting dumped...

 

 

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