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They are not true links bc they are not technically on linksland. That is the main qualification of true links.

 

Chambers has mutliple reasons. Yes its on the Sound but that's not the coastline, its a bay. There are massive elevation changes there as well which were manufactured by them moving dirt. They don't move much dirt on true links courses.

The tree thing was somewhat of a joke btw. Which is why i added "lol."

 

I remember reading multiple articles about why Chambers wasn't a true links years ago before the US Open. I'm sure they are still online.

 

Again, I don't remember as much about NGLA but it's also on a bay/river and never actually touches the coastline/ocean I believe.

 

Seeing or overlooking the ocean/sea at some point is a qualification for a "true links."

Old Mac is on linksland and does have a couple of holes that overlooks the Ocean. Thus is counts as a true links.

 

And I never said the list was the end all/ be all but I've seen that same list or similar ones in multiple books and on multiple websites. Just because a course isn't a "true links" doesn't mean that it isn't really a links course. As I've already stated.

I wasn't the one who wanted to nitpick about it or even bring up what a true links was remember.

Sorry man we'll just have to agree to disagree. First, plenty of dirt has been moved on a number of links courses. While the Old course is essentially untouched, there are countless in Scotland and Ireland where a lot of dirt was moved. Also, it doesn't have to be set on an ocean. In fact, most are set alongside seas. The type of body of water is not really a factor. NGLA indeed ‘touches' the coastline. The fourteenth actually features tide pools on the right side. Or maybe you mean it doesn't touch the coastline of an ocean, which is true.

 

A quick look online showed there's some contention where Chambers is actually a true Links. I think it just depends on what definition you want to go with. Rory thinks it is and after playing it myself, I would say it is as well.

 

Lol as I write this, the GC is on and the headline is, ‘Links golf in Texas.' So we've come full circle.

 

At any rate, good discussion but I'll be moving on from it.

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I'm not too terribly difficult to please although, you wouldn't know it from some recent posts here.  The most fun I've ever had on the golf course was with my then 8 year old daughter on a 9-hole mun

I've been wanting to post something here all afternoon. This is a good topic Rev. I don't consider myself any sort of student of golf course design/architecture but I know a good one when I play one.

Now I've missed lots of the discussion. I hate to be controversial but I don't think Pebble is a great design - it's the most amazing property and has some great holes on it but in general the holes

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I'm gonna side will PGG. He is an absolute wealth of knowledge on the golf course architecture/design

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I did the nitpicking - sorry I started it - if I recall the Chamber's Bay discussion the purists were writing that there are only two true links courses in the US. I can't recall what those were.

 

In the end I enjoy links style courses. It's difficult for us to get our courses to play like a links course because our soil is different from Scotland and Ireland.

 

We have two Donald Ross courses in our county. I refuse to play one because they water the heck out of it. It has a Redan hole where you will actually have your ball stop on the high corner of the green for cripes sake. Plus they are remodeling it right now and turning it into a resort course. :(

 

 

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Sorry man we'll just have to agree to disagree. First, plenty of dirt has been moved on a number of links courses. While the Old course is essentially untouched, there are countless in Scotland and Ireland where a lot of dirt was moved. Also, it doesn't have to be set on an ocean. In fact, most are set alongside seas. The type of body of water is not really a factor. NGLA indeed ‘touches' the coastline. The fourteenth actually features tide pools on the right side. Or maybe you mean it doesn't touch the coastline of an ocean, which is true.

A quick look online showed there's some contention where Chambers is actually a true Links. I think it just depends on what definition you want to go with. Rory thinks it is and after playing it myself, I would say it is as well.

Lol as I write this, the GC is on and the headline is, ‘Links golf in Texas.' So we've come full circle.

At any rate, good discussion but I'll be moving on from it.

I never said it wasn't a links course. I said it wasn't technically a "true links" since everyone wanted to be so technical a few pages back.

 

I also said that coastlines on both seas and oceans counted btw. Bays and lakes on the other hand do not. Thus neither NGLA or Chambers count.

 

This is really simple. It has to be on linksland to qualify as a true links. That is all I was saying. Again, neither chambers or NGLA qualify. I am not remotely saying that they don't play as such. Which is what Rory was referring to. This article was the first one to pop up on Google about Chambers not being a true links https://www.google.com/amp/amp.pga.com/news/pga-tour/chambers-bay-not-true-links-course

 

Look I personally don't care who sides with what or believes what. I care how the course plays and have said that at least 10 friggen times by this point. My only bugaboo was that if you are going to nitpick, at least do it correctly. I said last page that Sand Hills is a great links course and isn't remotely close to any water. It's not even close to a "true links" but damn sure plays like one.

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I never said it wasn't a links course. I said it wasn't technically a "true links" since everyone wanted to be so technical a few pages back.

 

I said that coastlines on both seas and oceans counted btw. Bays and lakes on the other hand do not. Thus neither NGLA or Chambers count.

 

This is really simple. It has to be on linksland to qualify as a true links. That is all I was saying. Again, neither chambers or NGLA qualify. I am not remotely saying that they don't play as such. Which is what Rory was referring to. This article was the first one to pop on Google about it not being a true links https://www.google.com/amp/amp.pga.com/news/pga-tour/chambers-bay-not-true-links-course

 

Look I personally don't care who sides with what or believes what. I care how the course plays and have said that at least 10 friggen times by this point. My only bugaboo was that if you are going to nitpick, at least do it correctly. I said last page that Sand Hills is a great links course and isn't remotely close to any water. It's not even close to a "true links" but damn sure plays like one.

I'm so sorry I made the comment - I totally agree that it really doesn't matter. Whatever it's called it's great to have the opportunity to play courses where you get to try links style shots out in the US.

 

That was the intent at whistling but that went out the window when the PGA made them change fairway grass from fescue to some hybrid of blue grass/bent in order to host their championships. I never understood that.

 

 

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...

That was not the case a generation ago. I would go to Westchester and see all different approaches to holes like 10 (1 on the course's actual routing) or 15 or 8 or 9. Each of those holes required a choice to lay back to a corner or go over some obstacle to have a shorter shot into the green.

...

 

 

I agree with Rev in that each golfer may perceive differently what is a "good" course (ie. for them and their style of play).

 

Personally, I like open, natural settings that ideally would incorporate several of Alistair MacKenzie's "13 Principles of Course Design" which include....

 

--------

--------

- Every hole should be different in character;

 

- There should be infinite variety in the strokes required to play the various holes….(with every club utilized);

 

- The course should be so interesting that even the scratch player is constantly stimulated to improve his game;

 

- The course should be so arranged that (all levels of players can) enjoy the round;

-------

-------

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I did the nitpicking - sorry I started it - if I recall the Chamber's Bay discussion the purists were writing that there are only two true links courses in the US. I can't recall what those were.

 

In the end I enjoy links style courses. It's difficult for us to get our courses to play like a links course because our soil is different from Scotland and Ireland.

 

We have two Donald Ross courses in our county. I refuse to play one because they water the heck out of it. It has a Redan hole where you will actually have your ball stop on the high corner of the green for cripes sake. Plus they are remodeling it right now and turning it into a resort course. :(

 

 

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No need to apologize Rev! Someone may end up reading across this information and find it useful. I had no problem putting it out there or even searching for the courses list. 

 

I was purely getting annoyed that my message seemed to not be getting across. Which is that a course doesn't necessarily have to be a "true links" to play as a true test of links golf. I could care less what's a "true links" and whats not even around water. I am interested in how a course plays. That is all. But if everyone wanted to nitpick then we may as well nitpick correctly.

 

I will be done with the "true links" stuff now, but here is some further info for those that want it. Before work this morning, I finally ended up finding that book I previously referred to. The title goes way off the deep end. True Links written by Malcolm and Peper https://www.amazon.com/True-Links-Malcolm-Campbell/dp/1579653952

Some other info on true links courses. All reference the True Links book at some point as well if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.carrgolf.com/true-links/

https://migrantgolfer.com/the-true-links-courses-of-the-world/

http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/origin-of-golf-terms/links/

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Oh, and re: Tour venues - Rev may have alluded to this in an earlier post but there is .. of course! .. a huge difference between what you think you see on the TV screen vs what you actually see if you're on the course.

 

Guys who've been able to play some of these tracks know; the closest I've come is being a spectator at Bethpage Black and walking around about 3/4 of the course.

 

It's known as a tough course but when you're actually there and see the scale and scope of some of the holes - and the shots that these guys are making to navigate their way over and around some of the obstacles and hazards - it is WAY more impressive "up close and personal"!

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Lost in all of this was what I really wanted to talk about. Trinity Forest. 
This is from Kasey Kauff. The guy in charge of the grounds there. Despite all the rain he thinks it will still play firm and fast this week. 

 

 

One place said that the tour is making them grow the fairways out to slow things down a bit but I don't know if that's true or not. I sure hope not. 

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One place said that the tour is making them grow the fairways out to slow things down a bit but I don't know if that's true or not. I sure hope not.

Almost positive it was Fried Egg but I had the opposite reaction to this news. Growing the fairways out is generally regarded as the best solution to the "ball distance problem" and I thought this week would serve as an interesting case study to see if it really works.

 

I don't know much about Trinity Forest but all this talk about the course has my interest piqued on a tourney I wouldn't normally pay that much attention to.

 

 

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"Links" were coastal strips of land between the beaches and the inland agricultural areas.  This term, in its purest sense, applies specifically to seaside areas in Scotland.  So "links land" is land where seaside transitions into farmland. Links land has sandy soil, making it unsuited for crops. Such land was often, in times past, thought to be worthless because it was not arable for crops.

 

So a true links course is not just any golf course that is treeless. The term "links" historically applies specifically to strips of land in seaside areas that feature sandy soil, dunes and undulating topography, and where the land is not conducive to cultivated vegetation or trees.  Because they were built on narrow strips of land, early links courses often followed an "out and back" or "out and in" routing. The front nine went out from the clubhouse, one hole stringed after another, until reaching the 9th green, which was the point on the golf course farthest from the clubhouse. The golfers then turned around on the 10th tee, with the back nine holes leading straight back to the clubhouse.

 

This is the definition of "links" taken directly from the R&A.  As is the case with most anything dating back far enough into history, it revolved around farming and cultivation of land.  Something that has been lost over the generations and often an afterthought in modern society.  Given the association with farming, it isn't difficult to conclude, little to no alteration of the existing ground condition are key factors when considering something a "true links".  In that regard, Undershooter is spot-on! 

 

Rivers, lakes and streams often play vital roles in farming.  They deposit sediment along their banks that create ideal conditions for agriculture.  Salty bodies of water do not fall into this category.  Countless waves deposit seas/ocean-spray in the "links" just beyond the beaches rendering those "links" worthless in terms of agriculture but ideal in cultivating golf courses.  

 

The key distinction in defining a "true links" has and always will be, the ability to farm the land.

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Almost positive it was Fried Egg but I had the opposite reaction to this news. Growing the fairways out is generally regarded as the best solution to the "ball distance problem" and I thought this week would serve as an interesting case study to see if it really works.

 

I don't know much about Trinity but all this talk about the course has my interest piqued on a tourney I wouldn't normally pay that much attention to.

 

 

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Yep Andy from TFE has mentioned them watering it too much and them growing the fairways out. I saw one other place on twitter mention them growing the grass out as well. I hope that they don't. I'm also fine with the ball going "too far." Because that means you have to stripe it to keep it in play. It puts a premium on precision when conditions are extremely firm and fast. If there is rough or the grass grows a bit long then shots will be kept from going further off line.

I'd like to see them let the course play somewhat like its designed to. Just to see what would happen. If its a flop then they can change it in the future. 

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"Links" were coastal strips of land between the beaches and the inland agricultural areas.  This term, in its purest sense, applies specifically to seaside areas in Scotland.  So "links land" is land where seaside transitions into farmland. Links land has sandy soil, making it unsuited for crops. Such land was often, in times past, thought to be worthless because it was not arable for crops.

 

So a true links course is not just any golf course that is treeless. The term "links" historically applies specifically to strips of land in seaside areas that feature sandy soil, dunes and undulating topography, and where the land is not conducive to cultivated vegetation or trees.  Because they were built on narrow strips of land, early links courses often followed an "out and back" or "out and in" routing. The front nine went out from the clubhouse, one hole stringed after another, until reaching the 9th green, which was the point on the golf course farthest from the clubhouse. The golfers then turned around on the 10th tee, with the back nine holes leading straight back to the clubhouse.

 

This is the definition of "links" taken directly from the R&A.  As is the case with most anything dating back far enough into history, it revolved around farming and cultivation of land.  Something that has been lost over the generations and often an afterthought in modern society.  Given the association with farming, it isn't difficult to conclude, little to no alteration of the existing ground condition are key factors when considering something a "true links".  In that regard, Undershooter is spot-on! 

 

Rivers, lakes and streams often play vital roles in farming.  They deposit sediment along their banks that create ideal conditions for agriculture.  Salty bodies of water do not fall into this category.  Countless waves deposit seas/ocean-spray in the "links" just beyond the beaches rendering those "links" worthless in terms of agriculture but ideal in cultivating golf courses.  

 

The key distinction in defining a "true links" has and always will be, the ability to farm the land.

 

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Lol this is a discussion?

 

Again just some inaccuracies thrown around here and I think some are getting minimalism and links courses confused. Nothing wrong with it, but just not accurate. For example, going off of one of the blog lists being used as authoritative here, North Berwick is listed. The famous Redan hole there was made. It wasn't natural, they didn't simply put grass seed on the land and call it a golf course. Just because the land wasn't farmable doesn't mean it wasn't moved to make the course. Look at the bathtub green at Cruden Bay; again, made. Maccaranish, made. And on and on. Old Mac, made and elevation differences.

 

Someone tried to argue that Chambers is not a true Links because of its extreme elevation differences. That's just inaccurate. Again using the list, there are countless at even first blush that extreme elevation differences. So again, that's inaccurate.

 

Can you also please explain how Sand Hills ‘plays' like a Links course? A Donald Ross parkland can play like a Links course too, so I'm not sure of the relevance.

 

So why point all of this out? To show even ‘true' links courses take many forms, not just out and back, not just treeless, or on oceans, or minimalist. It's important to go beyond simple google searches and actually look at the courses. And for me, the concept of links courses is most important. Moving away from target golf to using the terrain and battling the elements, whether wind, rain, hills, blind shots, etc. Many minimalist courses have succeeded in using links concepts and while it's easier to say they're Links style, I think it's better for course architecture to point out how each course plays and differentiate the style altogether.

 

Trinity Forest is a minimalist course with many of the above components. Yet it's not Links.

And anyone who thinks the ball shouldn't be rolled back because it forces the players to hit the ball straighter and some how thinks that makes for interesting golf is a lot different from my standpoint on architecture.

 

But I mean, go back to being abrasive and thinking you know more than everyone.

 

 

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Lol this is a discussion?

 

Again just some inaccuracies thrown around here and I think some are getting minimalism and links courses confused. Nothing wrong with it, but just not accurate. For example, going off of one of the blog lists being used as authoritative here, North Berwick is listed. The famous Redan hole there was made. It wasn't natural, they didn't simply put grass seed on the land and call it a golf course. Just because the land wasn't farmable doesn't mean it wasn't moved to make the course. Look at the bathtub green at Cruden Bay; again, made. Maccaranish, made. And on and on. Old Mac, made and elevation differences.

 

Someone tried to argue that Chambers is not a true Links because of its extreme elevation differences. That's just inaccurate. Again using the list, there are countless at even first blush that extreme elevation differences. So again, that's inaccurate.

 

Can you also please explain how Sand Hills ‘plays' like a Links course? A Donald Ross parkland can play like a Links course too, so I'm not sure of the relevance.

 

So why point all of this out? To show even ‘true' links courses take many forms, not just out and back, not just treeless, or on oceans, or minimalist. It's important to go beyond simple google searches and actually look at the courses. And for me, the concept of links courses is most important. Moving away from target golf to using the terrain and battling the elements, whether wind, rain, hills, blind shots, etc. Many minimalist courses have succeeded in using links concepts and while it's easier to say they're Links style, I think it's better for course architecture to point out how each course plays and differentiate the style altogether.

 

Trinity Forest is a minimalist course with many of the above components. Yet it's not Links.

And anyone who thinks the ball shouldn't be rolled back because it forces the players to hit the ball straighter and some how thinks that makes for interesting golf is a lot different from my standpoint on architecture.

 

But I mean, go back to being abrasive and thinking you know more than everyone.

 

 

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:rolleyes: You trying to target that at me bud? You coulda at least tagged me or quoted one of my posts. Because you are the only one coming off as "being abrasive and thinking you know more than everyone" right now. 

 

The quote sixcat posted is from the R&A. Not some internet blog. 

And if you think that a "cheers" gif in response to it is a being a know it all then the internet may not be the best place for you.

 

I've already said that I was done with the true links discussion earlier. I thought you were too. "At any rate, good discussion but I'll be moving on from it."  And now you post: "Lol this is a discussion?

 

Well it's not much of a discussion. That's for sure. Mostly just me posting information and links to books/ articles I've read over the years. While you brush them off.

As much fun as this as has been. Yall have at it...

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Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

Putter- Never Compromise Dinero Mogul
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B XS

Bag- Ogio Aquatech Cart Bag

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Lol you're right it's not much of a discussion at this point. Just you posting gif's and links as you fumble your way to a point.

 

I thought the posting of the R&A guidelines was helpful although interpreted incorrectly and unfortunately, you took it as validation. Once you decided to take the opportunity to celebrate the fact that the R&A was misinterpreted, I decided to jump back in and explain how 90% of what you posted on this was flat out incorrect, you know, in case others came here for edification.

 

Enjoy the the thread everyone. It's like they say, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and in this case, under shooter or whatever the name is can wow everyone with Wikipedia skills and a whole lot of pretending.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WIT  :titelist-small: Sta Dry Bag:

 

Driver:       :taylormade-small: '17 M2

 

Woods:     :taylormade-small: M2 3W and 5W

 

Hybrids:   :callaway-logo-1: Apex 3h and 5h  

Irons:          :mizuno-small:   MP 18 MMC

 

Wedges:   :callaway-logo-1: MD PM Grind, 56* and 60*

Putter:      :scotty-cameron-1: California Sonoma

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Lol you're right it's not much of a discussion at this point. Just you posting gif's and links as you fumble your way to a point.

 

I thought the posting of the R&A guidelines was helpful although interpreted incorrectly and unfortunately, you took it as validation. Once you decided to take the opportunity to celebrate the fact that the R&A was misinterpreted, I decided to jump back in and explain how 90% of what you posted on this was flat out incorrect, you know, in case others came here for edification.

 

Enjoy the the thread everyone. It's like they say, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and in this case, under shooter or whatever the name is can wow everyone with Wikipedia skills and a whole lot of pretending.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually didn't take it as validation. I said cheers because he posted some useful information, you insufferable know it all.

 

Please tell me how 90% of what I've said is incorrect! lol

I am more than open to learning but you haven't offered to teach us anything. And why should we listen to you anyway? You are "philly golf guy" on a forum. Not gosh damn Alister Mackenzie. Get off your high horse.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ Diamana Ahina 80X 44"
Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

Putter- Never Compromise Dinero Mogul
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B XS

Bag- Ogio Aquatech Cart Bag

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never once claimed that I am some all knowing golf architecture buff. I read a lot and the subject somewhat interests me. That is the extent of my knowledge.

It seems you are an expert though @philly golf guy. Congrats and good for you. Maybe in the future you'll share some of those expertise instead of talking down to people. 

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ Diamana Ahina 80X 44"
Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

Putter- Never Compromise Dinero Mogul
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B XS

Bag- Ogio Aquatech Cart Bag

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol you're right it's not much of a discussion at this point. Just you posting gif's and links as you fumble your way to a point.

 

I thought the posting of the R&A guidelines was helpful although interpreted incorrectly and unfortunately, you took it as validation. Once you decided to take the opportunity to celebrate the fact that the R&A was misinterpreted, I decided to jump back in and explain how 90% of what you posted on this was flat out incorrect, you know, in case others came here for edification.

 

Enjoy the the thread everyone. It's like they say, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and in this case, under shooter or whatever the name is can wow everyone with Wikipedia skills and a whole lot of pretending.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How exactly did I “interpret incorrectly”, the R&A information?

 

For the record, I have worked in the civil engineering field for 23 and a half years. Cultivation of land is something I've been doing professionally for more than half my life! That includes several golf course properties mentioned in this thread as well as others on this site.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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How exactly did I “interpret incorrectly”, the R&A information?

 

For the record, I have worked in the civil engineering field for 23 and a half years. Cultivation of land is something I've been doing professionally for more than half my life! That includes several golf course properties mentioned in this thread as well as others on this site.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Here you go:  

 

Given the association with farming, it isn't difficult to conclude, little to no alteration of the existing ground condition are key factors when considering something a "true links".  

 

This is inaccurate.  Your conclusion here on alteration of ground is the misinterpretation.  Plenty of "true links" were altered substantially.  And it's not a key factor at all.  

 

Rivers, lakes and streams often play vital roles in farming.  They deposit sediment along their banks that create ideal conditions for agriculture.  Salty bodies of water do not fall into this category.  Countless waves deposit seas/ocean-spray in the "links" just beyond the beaches rendering those "links" worthless in terms of agriculture but ideal in cultivating golf courses.  

 

I don't disagree with this, but to be clear, a true links does not have to be on the ocean.  Even looking at the list of true links courses referenced, there are many set in harbors, sounds, etc.  

 

 

 

 

WIT  :titelist-small: Sta Dry Bag:

 

Driver:       :taylormade-small: '17 M2

 

Woods:     :taylormade-small: M2 3W and 5W

 

Hybrids:   :callaway-logo-1: Apex 3h and 5h  

Irons:          :mizuno-small:   MP 18 MMC

 

Wedges:   :callaway-logo-1: MD PM Grind, 56* and 60*

Putter:      :scotty-cameron-1: California Sonoma

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