The distance issue. (merged)

[KevinE]

After reading the report by the R+A/USGA, I would love to hear everyone's input. I had my (Jack Nicklaus's also). opinion. But after reading, and sifting through the pros and cons, I think this 60 year old might be changing his mind. At this stage in my life, that is not an easy task. I would love to hear what some of my friends and fellow GolfSpyers have to say, before I commit to my stance. Both sides have some valid points, I just think I am leaning more to one side than the other.

 

moderator note: merged with existing recent same topic to help Street11 with his research.

[revkev]

Sure - at 60 are you hitting it farther? If so you're in the minority. There are bundles of stats that show that amateur golfers 99.9 percent of the golfing population have gained zero yardage in the past 20 years - zero.

 

If you haven't read John's article on the blog you should. Last year to the year prior was not an apples to apples comparison. There were 11 different courses used on tour last year from the year prior. That matters. There's nearly a 30 yard averaging driving distance between Innisbrook and Firestone, 15 yards between Innisbrook and Doral in the same state.

 

The fix is ridiculously obvious - soften the course and tighten the fairways when the pros are playing and leave us alone.

 

If they change the ball I will no longer even attempt to play golf by the rules. If they lose a guy who was once very competitive at the local level and able at least to qualify at the State Am level - they are going to loose people in droves.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[KevinE]

Sure - at 60 are you hitting it farther? If so you're in the minority. There are bundles of stats that show that amateur golfers 99.9 percent of the golfing population have gained zero yardage in the past 20 years - zero.

 

If you haven't read John's article on the blog you should. Last year to the year prior was not an apples to apples comparison. There were 11 different courses used on tour last year from the year prior. That matters. There's nearly a 30 yard averaging driving distance between Innisbrook and Firestone, 15 yards between Innisbrook and Doral in the same state.

 

The fix is ridiculously obvious - soften the course and tighten the fairways when the pros are playing and leave us alone.

 

If they change the ball I will no longer even attempt to play golf by the rules. If they lose a guy who was once very competitive at the local level and able at least to qualify at the State Am level - they are going to loose people in droves.

 

Rev........I think you might have missed my point. No, I am not hitting the ball farther, actually I'm either hitting it the same or a little less than my persimmon/balata days of 35 years ago.. I blindly agreed with the Golden Bear, at the beginning. Now, I converted to leave the ball alone. A shorter ball will hurt DJ much less than it will hurt Zach Johnson. I also think it will hurt the 99.9% of us a lot more than it will effect the longest of the touring pros.

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[ole gray]

Let's put it this way when the USGA banned belly and titty putters it loss plenty of love from the seniors at my club. Guess what,,,,, they are still playing their long putters and saying screw you to the powers.   Of course most of them are not competing in USGA type tournaments so they could give a rats arse what changes they implement.  Personally I think they should leave the ball as is for amateurs.  As for the pros no doubt they are hitting it a mile however you still have to putt.  Just ask old Jordan Speith   .  

[tony@CIC]

That report didn't demonstrate to me that there is a ball issue. How do you break down the distance by all factors: player fitness, club technology, etc. etc.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[DiscipleofPenick]

I think there's no reason to roll any distance backfor amateurs - balls or clubs. The pros maybe, or even just certain tournaments is fine. Leave us alone, or if anything start bifurcating the rules more, at least a lax set for us public golfers that don't always have pristine conditions.

 

Driver: Titleist 915 D3 w/ Diamana X 70g B4 setting

Irons: TaylorMade R7 TP 4-PW S300 shafts 1* upright

Titleist Vokey Wedges 50-54-58

Cobra Fly-z 16.5 FW

Adams Pro Boxer hybrid 18*

6.5 index, RH, Cleveland, OH

[MDGolfHacker]

I agree with RevKev.  These pro's hit it plenty far and using a ball to reduce distance would only hurt the amateurs and day to day players.  I don't drive the ball prodigious distances, if anything, I need the ball to go further on drives   Make the courses tougher for the Pro.  Pinch the fairways where the bombers are landing them. Make the rough, well rougher   Choose courses that make the pro's think their way around the course more instead of the bomb and gauge technique that is happening.  Choose courses that force you to play a variety of shots, from fades to draws.  I don't think rolling back the distance on balls would accomplish anything on the tour.

 

MDGolfHacker

[MaxEntropy]

To me, this report makes one thing clear - they don't have a ball issue. When the topic first came up, I thought it was the ball, after all, if Jack says it, I tend to believe it, but this chart flies directly in the face of it.

 

Depending on the source and amount of data, a decent statistician could extract much more information. I find it a bit curious that for all but the highest handicap range, the peaks and valleys from year-to-year coincide - what is the cause of those?

[Shankster]

They have a fairway cut too short, and they play the same courses over and over and over problem. Change up every course yearly. Cut the fairways a touch longer, narrow them up.

 

Course set up, no imagination problem. Not an equipment problem.

[revkev]

 

Sure - at 60 are you hitting it farther? If so you're in the minority. There are bundles of stats that show that amateur golfers 99.9 percent of the golfing population have gained zero yardage in the past 20 years - zero.

 

If you haven't read John's article on the blog you should. Last year to the year prior was not an apples to apples comparison. There were 11 different courses used on tour last year from the year prior. That matters. There's nearly a 30 yard averaging driving distance between Innisbrook and Firestone, 15 yards between Innisbrook and Doral in the same state.

 

The fix is ridiculously obvious - soften the course and tighten the fairways when the pros are playing and leave us alone.

 

If they change the ball I will no longer even attempt to play golf by the rules. If they lose a guy who was once very competitive at the local level and able at least to qualify at the State Am level - they are going to loose people in droves.

 

Rev........I think you might have missed my point. No, I am not hitting the ball farther, actually I'm either hitting it the same or a little less than my persimmon/balata days of 35 years ago.. I blindly agreed with the Golden Bear, at the beginning. Now, I converted to leave the ball alone. A shorter ball will hurt DJ much less than it will hurt Zach Johnson. I also think it will hurt the 99.9% of us a lot more than it will effect the longest of the touring pros.

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Got you - yes I missed your original point. We Kevin's must stick together. My bad - sorry

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[revkev]

They have a fairway cut too short, and they play the same courses over and over and over problem. Change up every course yearly. Cut the fairways a touch longer, narrow them up.

 

Course set up, no imagination problem. Not an equipment problem.

Exactly - although it may be tough to change course just soften and tighten the ones that they use.

 

Instead we have a guy complaining that there is too much sand in a bunker. Personally I think there should be a different amount to f sand in every bunker so that they become true hazards.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[JAGolfore]

I think the issue is with the courses. Look at the last 2 US Opens. 20 yards difference in driving. That is all in the course. Oakmont in 2016 was very wet. Erin Hills last year was dry. If you want to control the distance then do not cut the fairways as low and frown the rough longer. Oh and guess what your club might save a few dollars as the are not mowing as often or stressing the grass as much. But hey it's a ball problem.

 

I really wish there were 2 sets of rules. One for true amateurs and one for the guys that want to play competitively. This type of talk does not grow the game. If you want to grow the game you do what is right for the 99%. Not change the rules for the 1%.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Shankster]

I think it's more like the .01%

[hckymeyer]

I thought this was a much better take on the issue.  Poulter put it up on Instagram but it is the message that came out from the PGA Tour Players association and was sent to all the pro's.  Bottom line is that statistics can be manipulated to show/prove whatever you want them to prove.  Personally I see no ball issue and no distance issue.

 

 

 

[jaskanski]

Your move Jack 

[Kenny B]

The report says that the average driver distance for men is 208 yards, average driver distance for women is 146 yards.  If the golf ball is rolled back 20%, the length of a round of golf at my muni would increase by a minimum of 30 minutes.  That means rounds would take 5-6 hours.

 

From the forward tees, women would not be able to drive the green on two par 3's; they would need an extra shot to get to five par 4's; and an extra shot to get to four par 5's.  That's 11 extra shots, assuming all shots are well-struck.  I suppose the golf course could build 11 new tee boxes, but it's a muni and I don't think they will spend that kind of money.

 

For the men there would be 13 holes that would not be reachable in regulation with a 166 yard drive and approach shots, including two par 3's.  Yes, if they moved up a tee box, then they would not reach 8 greens in regulation.

 

There are players now that play tee boxes that are beyond their ability.  Imagine what it will be like when they have to take an extra shot on every hole.  The USGA says they want to grow the game, but this insanity will do nothing but make golf rounds longer and run people away from the game. Maybe an "average joe" should be a member of the ruling body.

[KevinE]

Got you - yes I missed your original point. We Kevin's must stick together. My bad - sorry

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

And sticking together, we shall !!!!!

[tony@CIC]

If they're going to roll back the ball I'm running out and buying a lifetime supply of the current balls!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[AH1980MN]

I don't think any change is warranted on the player side. If we bifurcate the rules, we'll no longer be playing the same game at all levels- and that's part of the draw, testing yourself against the best of the best. Definitely make courses tougher if you want, but remember that the general public watching golf loves birdies and the long ball. Does anyone remember several years ago when high scores at the U.S. Open were deemed a problem and viewership declined? Everything evolves, and roll backs seldom work as intended.

[KevinE]

I think what they may do, is not cut back the ball, but maybe not let the ball get anymore "juicier" in the future. That might not make the manufacturers happier, but I believe that is what they are going to do.

[MaxEntropy]

Definitely make courses tougher if you want, but remember that the general public watching golf loves birdies and the long ball. Everything evolves, and roll backs seldom work as intended.

 

I agree that it is fun to watch the pros obliterate a course, but at the same time, I like to see them struggle for par. It makes them human and I can relate better.

[AH1980MN]

The ball and clubs have been limited for years now.

[Wedgie]

The USGA seems a lot like the NCAA. Both trying to stay relevant as the world passes them by.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

[TBT]

Slow down and narrow the fairways, grow the rough out and let the pro's have at it....the only other option would be a different ball for pros than for amateurs.

[Shankster]

Could also make those short par 5's that most of the field gets on in 2 Par 4's. That would be interesting.

[revkev]

The USGA seems a lot like the NCAA. Both trying to stay relevant as the world passes them by.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

You said it - I thought it. But I think it's too late for the NCAA

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[KevinE]

I think NCAA Men's basketball dropped the ball a long time ago. I loved College hoops. They played defense, they shot free throws and played true basketball. Then they saw the NBA go bat s*** crazy and offense, dunks, no D,traveling all the time, and 3 pointers was the show. They evolved into another NBA.. Back to golf, leave it be, and sorry Jack, I thought you were right, but now I'm on the other side.

[tha_carter7]

This is a whole big nothing burger. Yes, pros today hit it absurdly far. But I think this whole "roll back the ball" thing is getting more attention because everyone on Tour hits it a mile now. (I'm generalizing)

 

In this post-Tiger era, all the best athletes are playing more golf. Therefore, whereas before 5 guys hit it 300+, now 50 of them do and everyone thinks it's a problem. 

 

I don't know about you, but I don't want to turn on Golf Channel and see DJ, JT, Rory, Tiger, etc hitting 250 yard drivers. I have the same opinion about home runs in MLB - the more the better. 

 

This is a non issue. And I'm sure all us amateurs don't want to play with a rolled back ball.  

[tha_carter7]

Slow down and narrow the fairways, grow the rough out and let the pro's have at it....the only other option would be a different ball for pros than for amateurs.

Fairways running 10 on the stimp doesn't help either. 

[PlaidJacket]

Aren't the balls and clubs that everyone plays built to the specifications put forth by the USGA? ie... conforming to USGA? They set the rules of ball performance. Not Titleist. Not DJ or Joe Schmoe. The USGA sets the rules for club performance too. Not Callaway. Think of all the balls and equipment they have determined is non-conforming. Ball flies to far and too straight. Clubs go too far and too straight. etc. etc.

We play with the equipment the USGA has allowed us to use. It's not the ball or the clubs USGA!!

Golf these days on TV is just that.... a made for TV event. Long drives, close wedges, birdies galore! I'd imagine most Pros anymore don't need more than about 8 clubs in the bag. Hell, they hit 7i's 225 yards! If it were me I'd have my caddy carry a Sunday bag for me. I'm sure he'd thank me.

 

DJ's new Sunday Tour Bag:

Driver

FW wood

7i

PW

52*

56*

60*

Putter