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are club heads too large ?

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Off the tee boxes I believe large head drivers,  fairway metals , and irons are fine. 

However, from sloped, grassy, sandy, hard pan other less than ideal lies, I think the current industry standard of large heads may be less forgiving than the clubs of 20 years ago.

For example, the original Tommy Armour 845 was a very popular iron model featuring a relatively small club head size with a deep cavity (plenty of perimeter weighting). This made for a very forgiving iron, suitable for all skill levels from beginner to Tour pro.

Today, just about every iron design , even today's so called "players cavity backs", from all the major brands, is quite a bit larger in size than the old 845's, Ping Eye 2's, or other irons from that era.

And today's fairway metals are much larger than the old Taylor Made Tour Preferred or Titleist PT, or original Callaway Bertha fairway metals of 20 years ago. Those fairways were relatively easy to play from sloped or other less than ideal lies.I think the modern fairway metals are sensible to play off tee boxes, but not so much off the ground (unless the lie is ideal).

Do you agree or disagree that while today's relatively large club heads offer forgiveness in some areas, they are less forgiving from certain types of lies.

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Driver Mizuno JPX-EZ GD Tour AD-DI

Fairways Mizuno JPX-EZ 3 and 5 metals GD Tour AD-DJ

Iron set Mizuno MP 63 3-PW DG S300

Wedges Mizuno MP-T5 52* and 58* DG wedge shaft

Putter Byron Morgan DH89

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There's so much variety on the market today. There's something for everyone.

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In my :mizuno-small: BR-D4 Stand Bag

:ping-small: G410 LST 9* Tour AD BB 6X
:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* Tour AD DI 7X
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 49F - 54S - 59D
Putter ?????
:bridgestone-small: Tour B X
 
SuperSpeed Forum Tester
Initial Driver Speed on Provided Monitor: 109 MPH
 

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pick whatever works for you. 

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Left Hand orientation

:ping-small: G410 SFT driver 

:cobra-small: F Max 5 wood

:ping-small:  9 wood
:ping-small:  410  Hybrids 22*, 26*
:wilson-small: C300 4i-GP
:cleveland-small:  Wedges RTX 3.0: 52*, 56*
:ping-small: EYE 2 Wedge 60*

:odyssey-small: O Works putter
:918457628_PrecisionPro:NX9-HD

:CaddyTek: - 4 Wheel 
:footjoy-small: - too many shoes to list and so many to buy

:1590477705_SunMountain:

:SuperSpeed: Official Tester 2020   Beginning Driver Speed  - 78

 

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There's so much variety on the market today. There's something for everyone.

And as much or as little technology that a persons wants.

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Knock yourself out - I will use what my teaching pro says is best for my game. I'd highly recommend you do the same.

 

Good luck

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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Interesting topic

I think that's why they called the old callaway x12's “shovels”.

It's harder to hit anything off hard short grass, with anything.

Nice soft lush fairways are easy. Tees up is easier yet.


:callaway-small: MavriK Sub Zero 9* on EvenFlow RipTide 6.0 50g

:ping-small: g400 3 wood on Aldila Stiff  not for long! Looking for a MavriK 3-wood!!!

:callaway-small: 816 Big Bertha Alpha 3-wood (stand-in until the MavriK is found)

:callaway-small: 815 GBB Alpha hybrid 19° On Fujikura Speeder 865 Stiff

:Hogan: Combo iron set -8,9,per Icon 5,6,7 PtxPro 4-UiHi on Recoil 780 ES f4 Stiff shafts (best clubs ever)

:benhogan-small: Equalizer 50°, 54°, 60° wedges on Recoil 780 f4

 :EVNROLL: ER3 34”

:titelist-small: ProV1x

:callaway-small: .Org 14 cart bag

Adidas Tour 360 shoes

 

 

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Three years ago, the last time I shopped for irons, no manufacturer was offering traditional size head cavity back irons. The players cavity backs were mid size and the game improvement irons were jumbo size.

And for fairway metals, all manufacturers were offering heads significantly larger than traditional fairway metal head sizes. I do believe the hybrid market has replaced what was formerly the function of fairway metals (that is long shots off the ground from less than ideal lies).

And driver heads are 430-460. With technology things change for numerous reasons like making sure launch and spin don't get out of hand. The great thing about golf is we have a bunch of options and we can play what we like, what works or may not work for us. One should find what makes them want to play and/or practice.


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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The theme of this thread is about clubs played off the ground (not off of a tee).

As for available irons, I believe it's been more than 10 years since any manufacturer has designed/produced a cavity back iron that is smaller than a mid size club head. I assume the reason for this is that brands are using CAD (computer assisted design) , that optimize MOI (moment of inertia), without regard to actual golf playing conditions (grassy, hard pan, sloped, or other less than ideal lies).

The brands have also taken to offering only mid size to extra large head size fairway metals, which is great for tee box play but not ideal for playing from the ground, off less than ideal lies. In this area (long yardage shots from the ground) the industry appears to have gone to hybrids (which have head sizes similar to traditional fairway woods-metals.

The thread topic is a question asking if club heads are to big, thus solociting opinions. Those that have responded provided their opinions. You obviously feel they are too big which is fine, that's your take. Others here feel the size of clubs being too big or not doesn't really matter and to each their own on what they play.

 

I think in player irons like ap2, z565/575, p770/750 to name a few the manufactures have done a good job creating forgiving irons with a smaller look. The v sole on the Srixon z series plays well in a number of lies and having game both the current release and previous one in the 5 and 7 series I had no issues off hard pan, rough, tight fairways or even some slightly grown in.

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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In my opinion, I feel like the larger club heads LOOK easier to hit. Wether they are or not is debatable. If I stood over a 3 wood that is smaller than my current 3 hybrid, I wouldn't feel as confident in letting it rip. If you actually believe in “bigger is better” or not, it's ingrained in you. That's why most people see a 3 wood that's bigger than 20 year ago drivers, and say “I could hit that”. I personally do not believe they are to large. Just my opinion.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy


CobraConnectChallenge3

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Most of the replies seem to state "play what you want" or "lots of options available".

As far as I can tell, yours is the only reply actually mentioning club head size. I consider the AP2 to be a mid size club head. Really every current iron I see on display at a golf store is mid size or larger. Even the Titleist MB (not a cavity back) is a significantly larger head compared to what was for decades "traditional iron head size".

When comparing to “traditional” clubs everything is going to be larger. Technology has changed since “traditional” clubs were in use. Technology plays a role in the design and obviously size of the club. We can go on and on about how clubs have changed, balls have changed, putters, tees, shoes, shirts, pants, shorts, socks and so on.

 

I would much rather have the size and forgiveness of today's clubs and the newer ball designs than “traditional” clubs. I'm a believer in playing the biggest, most forgiving club that suits o es eye or game. If someone wants to play traditional clubs more power to them. I don't see the issue and it appears you want the discussion to be about everyone agreeing with you and that club makers aren't making the game easier or something.

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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This is my favorite topic. My answer is simply... Yes, they are way too big.

 

I mean I love my new driver it's the PING G. I've only missed the center area once since I put it in play.

 

Would I find the center of a 300cc Driver? Sure would. It's located in the same place regardless of the size of the club.... the middle.

 

You'd think with all of the advancements in tech someone would do it. But the past 20 years, every club has gotten bigger.

 

So, hey I'm a OEM, I am making a small iron, but I promise it works as well as the big one.

 

Which would you chose?

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Do you agree or disagree that while today's relatively large club heads offer forgiveness in some areas, they are less forgiving from certain types of lies.

I quoted the actual question from your original post because I see some blood boiling in subsequent posts about blades and persimmon 3-woods when I think you ask a very valid question that got lost in the replies.

 

I think there are some advantages to smaller iron heads. A small head can cut through thick rough better than a large head with a big, wide sole.

 

Sole design plays a huge role and it seems manufacturers are just starting to address this, most notably, Ben Hogan Co. and Srixon Golf with their v sole irons. I've been so intrigued by these designs I just got a set of Hogan Ft. Worths and the V Sole is a great design.

 

Now, it would be interesting to hear from manufacturers how much different lies are factored into the design of a clubhead. Do they maximize forgiveness for a perfect lie with a larger head that, in turn, makes the club perform less then optimally from a less than perfect lie?

 

Personally, I believe iron clubheads will start getting smaller as the forgiveness of perimeter weighting can be achieved with hollow heads that all the major manufacturers now feature in their lineups.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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WITB:

Louisville Smart Persimmon Driver

Louisville Niblick Persimmon 3 & 5 woods

Hogan UIHI 4-iron*

Hogan PTx Pro 5-7*

Hogan Icon 8-PW*

KZG 51 gap wedge

KZG 56 sand wedge

Rife Legend Z Putter

 

*denotes clubs being tested

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So, for playing long yardage shots from sloped, grassy, hard pan or other less than idea lies I think many players are now swinging hybrids from where players formerly swung fairway woods.

I don't seem to recall too many recreational golfers being able to reliably hit fairway woods from downslopes, hardpan or rough at any point in my 37 years of golf. And I caddied all through high school and college, so I've seen my fair share of recreational golf.

 

I was never good with a persimmon 3 wood off the deck, a baffler 4 wood was about the best I could do.

 

I hit my hybrids as long as I hit my fairway woods back in the 80s, with better accuracy, trajectory and consistency. So it's no problem that my 3 wood leaves the bag I've teed off only under ideal conditions. I'm not giving anything up; I do have another shot I can hit once in a great while.

 

 

For long yardage shots players do have good options, whether to carry hybrids or fairway metals, or both.

That I will agree with, 100%.

 

 

But within the iron category I think there may be a market for a traditional head size, deep cavity, perimeter weighted iron. From the mid 70's on through the 80's , and into the 90's , Ping led the path of forgiving irons with deep cavity , perimeter weighted, relatively small size iron heads. These irons were very forgiving and popular for all skill levels, from beginner to Tour player. By the late 90's Karsten Solheim was no longer involved in designing irons, Ping went to using computer CAD design, and the company's iron heads became larger. Really all company's, for the past 20 years, have favored CAD design and mid size or larger iron heads.

So CAD is leading to less playable iron designs? If you think you have a better mousetrap, build it.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
2 Iron - :mizuno-small: FliHi (18*) - Recoil 760 ( S )
4i - GW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
SW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :srixon-small: Z-Star XV
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino
 

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I can say that I am one of the golfers that likes a smaller head on my irons. I will also say that I've had game improvement irons and currently play a set of “players” irons. The modern game improvement irons are more forgiving in my opinion in almost every way than a players iron. That being said, play what you can stand to look at. I have found that a nice combo set with cavity backs in the longer irons and more bladed clubs in the short irons works best for me. Companies now make irons that are the best of both worlds, more compact heads with tons of forgiveness.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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* as a long time looper you probably have seen many, many players work their way around the course making one club selection mistake after another.  Tour players, when asked what is the number one fault they see when playing with amateurs, often reply by saying club selection.

You flatter me, but you are correct.

 

As for fairway wood-metal design, my point is simply that as heads have grown larger (and shafts longer as well), the 3-wood loft clubs have become more challenging with which to strike solid shots from less than ideal lies. At the same time they've become easier with which to strike shots on a tee box, off of a tee.

Right. The three wood of today is basically a mini-driver. I know of several good players that have their driver set up to eliminate the left side of the course and hit a cut, and they use their three wood as a draw club off the tee. So with that and the ability to hit a long shot from an absolutely perfect lie, you have a useful arsenal at the top of the bag.

 

And that trade off is o.k. because there are now other clubs available to strike long yardage shots from the ground, such as hybrids.

As for iron head designs and possibly "building a better mousetrap", I've talked to both PING and Mizuno about this. These companies are  set on

using CAD to achieve MOI and seem to believe "bigger is better". Also, I think there is a reluctance in the industry to go against the trend of mid size or larger iron heads. From a business perspective, I think the companies feel they would be taking on unnecessary risk by going against current industry trends.

Well, we're all about data here at MGS. It sounds like we should be lobbying for testing clubs from unpleasant lies as well as off of mats. We don't get to play off of mats.

 

At the very least, those of us who are doing forum testing should make a point of letting our readers know how the new clubs perform in less than ideal circumstances. I'll be sure to do that. The F8s are the first set of real power bats I've ever played. Check out the toe-on view (the progressive set I'll be playing is the bottom set).

 

cobra-f8-irons-new.jpg

 

Will I be able to get the 4 iron up off a downhill lie? Or out of the rough? Only time will tell. I do think Cobra is making a smart move by making the short irons significantly less shovel-like. Stay tuned!


What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
2 Iron - :mizuno-small: FliHi (18*) - Recoil 760 ( S )
4i - GW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
SW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :srixon-small: Z-Star XV
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino
 

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