launch monitor question

[Topline]

I have never used a launch monitor. Of course I've heard the name Trackman and assume that is a launch monitor.

Regardless, my question is about the electronic measuring devices (whether it's called a launch monitor, Trackman, or something else).

On the club reviews found at YouTube, golf discussion forums etc...the numbers given for carry distance and total yardage often seem to me to be of incredibly long yardages. For example, driver shots carrying 300 yards, hybrids more than 240, 6-irons carrying 200 plus yards etc....

In my home area of Northern California I am fortunate enough to attend Tour events at Harding Park GC  (Amex World Championsip, President's Cup) Olympic Club (US Open), Pebble Beach and Spyglass Hill (annual AT&T event as well as US Open). I've also travelled to So Cal to be in the gallery for the annual San Diego tournament at Torrey Pines and

Los Angeles event at Riviera CC.

So, I've seen up close shots at Tour events and the yardages the Tour players carry their shots are less distance than the internet posted Trackman club review videos. Does this mean the launch monitors are faulty and, or, geared to 

produce yardages different from actual on course yardages ? Do players who use launch monitors "build in" a plus 10% or plus 20% factor from the launch monitor, and then revise accordingly when playing a golf course ?

[yungkory]

What good would a launch monitor be if it gave you incorrect numbers? I honestly can't tell if you're trolling...

 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

Not trolling.

I don't know if the technology is accurate enough to reasonably simulate actual on course shot distances.

If you have used a launch monitor, are the numbers you read the same as your on course numbers ?

There are plenty players on tour with a 300+ carry distance. Trackman uses camera plus Doppler to run an algorithm. Foresight uses cameras. They are pretty accurate.

 

There are a lot of shorter hitters on tour that don't reach 300 with roll. Also tour guys arent swinging 100% on every swing where guys in Youtube don't have to worry about playing the ball after they hit and can go all out.

[Charli]

I don't think they are accurate all the time. I know my distances with my irons and sometimes I hit my 7i 195 on the simulators. So I agree sometimes it reads a false number. But for the most part they are close.

[Golfspy_CG2]

Having sat with several OEM reps this spring while they do fittings with both Trackman and Foresight GCQuad, I can tell you, you are not seeing Internet numbers.  LM's don't lie (unless you program them too... )

 

There are so many athletically talented guys and gals, playing golf these days, it's not unusual for many of them to carry a driver 290 and have a total of 320.  I've seen it multiple times during each session.  They are producing swing speeds from 113 to 121, ball speeds in the 170's and 180's.   So they can hit it out there with the Pro's.  But put them on a course and their iron game, short game and putting, is where you see why they are anywhere from 2 to 12 handicap, and not playing for money on Sundays. 

 

I have a friend who has been a teacher for over 30 years, he refuses to use a LM, saying he can tell with his eyes what a ball is doing.   And to a certain extent, I know that's true.  But in my mind any teacher/fitter not using a trackman or GC Quad is doing his students and himself a disservice.   I know many of the old line instructors will tell me I'm full of of bull hockey.   But times change, and either you change with them, or you get left behind   And that goes for just about every industry these days, not just golf.      

 

End of LM Sermon 

[revkev]

Not trolling.

I don't know if the technology is accurate enough to reasonably simulate actual on course shot distances.

If you have used a launch monitor, are the numbers you read the same as your on course numbers ?

The technology is pretty accurate but there are ways for a guy to rig it. You could for example set it to simulate a 25 mph tail wind or firm course conditions to jack your yardages. Like you I see the pros play enough and I will sometimes stand by the shot love no guys. Additionally I'm the member of a club that is a winter home for a number of Canadian tour guys and home course for a couple of LPGA players.

 

So it's possible that a given handicap player might be as long as a touring pro but highly unlikely. So like you I don't buy all of the numbers that I see on golf forums even this one.

 

Honestly it doesn't matter. I'm not going to be concerned about a review from a guy who's swinging over 100 mph whether his swing speed is the 115 he's claiming or not. I just don't let it bother me.

 

I do okay with my swing speed in the high 80's. I'm just trying to get it back there again.

 

 

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[GolfJunkie302]

TrackMan is going to be super accurate. Within half a yard. YouTube guys have an infinitely wide fairway and don't have to worry about missing the fairway. On Tour, guys might be swinging 80%. On YouTube, it might be more like 101%. Obviously it depends on the LM. If you're talking about something like Optishot, you could hit a 9i 300 yards on one of those. There's a reason Tour pros use TrackMan. It's the best of the best.

 

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[cnosil]

They are all launch monitors by different manufacturers: trackman foresight, skytrack, etc. each one uses different ways to calculate distances. Some use radar and some use cameras. Radar units like trackman are better outdoors because they look more at ball flight.

 

Do people on the internet tweak theirs to boost numbers? Who knows. There are lots of settings such as ground firmness, humidity/temperature, and elevation that all impact distance.

 

I would say it isn't good to just hit clubs to compare to your gamers. You need to hit everything side by side to see how they compare on the particular setup where you are testing.

 

Are they accurate? I would say that properly setup they are very accurate. On the GC Quads that MGS uses as part of the most wanted testing the distance with my clubs are almost spot on.

[cnosil]

I have a friend who has been a teacher for over 30 years, he refuses to use a LM, saying he can tell with his eyes what a ball is doing. And to a certain extent, I know that's true. But in my mind any teacher/fitter not using a trackman or GC Quad is doing his students and himself a disservice. I know many of the old line instructors will tell me I'm full of of bull hockey. But times change, and either you change with them, or you get left behind And that goes for just about every industry these days, not just golf.

 

I agree LM are great tools for teachers but I would be wary of the teacher that relies on the launch monitor too much. The question from an instruction perspective is do you look for numbers that are optimum for the players swing or do you change the swing to find optimum numbers? Launch monitors provide data, but don't show the picture of how you achieved that data.

[cnosil]

My perspective on distance may be (at least partially) due to observations I've made within my home area. For example, a tHarding Park or Olympic Club , two San Francisco courses, it's not uncommon for a Tour player who usually swings a 9-iron from 160 yards to play a 7-iron. SF's sea level altitude, relatively heavy sometimes foggy air etc....may not be a good representation for "average carry distances".

It's not uncommon for a Tour player in the warm tropical air of the Hawaiian islands to play wedge from 150 yards and then a few weeks later play 8 iron from 150 on a damp morning at Pebble Beach.

I imagine that the electronic measuring devices used with simulators do have settings for altitude, air density, air temperature etc..., but the internet video equipment reviewers usually do not reveal how they have set up their measuring devices.

Also remember that when a tour player is competing, they are playing golf shots with a specific purpose and not necessarily chasing and optimal launch and maximum distance.

[Golfspy_CG2]

I agree LM are great tools for teachers but I would be wary of the teacher that relies on the launch monitor too much. The question from an instruction perspective is do you look for numbers that are optimum for the players swing or do you change the swing to find optimum numbers? Launch monitors provide data, but don't show the picture of how you achieved that data.

I totally get that, but during a recent lesson I had he used both very effectively, he could show me on the LM how (confirmed by video) how much my swing was coming from out to in.   And was able to show a later swing on in to out path even at a more controlled swing got more distance as it hit the ball more solidly.  Something that to me may not have been visible to my naked eye...at least. 

[russtopherb]

I totally get that, but during a recent lesson I had he used both very effectively, he could show me on the LM how (confirmed by video) how much my swing was coming from out to in. And was able to show a later swing on in to out path even at a more controlled swing got more distance as it hit the ball more solidly. Something that to me may not have been visible to my naked eye...at least.

I think having LM numbers to show how a swing change has been effective is great. I also think that the growing prevalence of the LM has led some people to chase numbers to their detriment.

 

 

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[Golfspy_CG2]

I think having LM numbers to show how a swing change has been effective is great. I also think that the growing prevalence of the LM has led some people to chase numbers to their detriment.

 

 

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Agreed, I'm chasing that ever elusive 240 yard drive 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Also remember that when a tour player is competing, they are playing golf shots with a specific purpose and not necessarily chasing and optimal launch and maximum distance.

This is one thing most people don't realize/understand. Tour players rarely swing irons 100%. They are focused on spin, flight and shot shape so knockdowns etc May be the better option than going 100% and not being able to control spin

[BigtazzGolf]

The technology is pretty accurate but there are ways for a guy to rig it. You could for example set it to simulate a 25 mph tail wind or firm course conditions to jack your yardages. Like you I see the pros play enough and I will sometimes stand by the shot love no guys. Additionally I'm the member of a club that is a winter home for a number of Canadian tour guys and home course for a couple of LPGA players.

 

So it's possible that a given handicap player might be as long as a touring pro but highly unlikely. So like you I don't buy all of the numbers that I see on golf forums even this one.

 

Honestly it doesn't matter. I'm not going to be concerned about a review from a guy who's swinging over 100 mph whether his swing speed is the 115 he's claiming or not. I just don't let it bother me.

 

I do okay with my swing speed in the high 80's. I'm just trying to get it back there again.

 

 

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During today's proam I was working the trackman for the groups as they came thru.

Curious. The machine can be programmed to give a lot of roll?

Can the carry yardage be tweaked or is it pretty accurate?

Reason I ask is a few guys would hit balls and almost stop in the fairway on impact but the machine would add extra yards.

 

 

 

Tazz

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[null]

During today's proam I was working the trackman for the groups as they came thru.

Curious. The machine can be programmed to give a lot of roll?

Can the carry yardage be tweaked or is it pretty accurate?

Reason I ask is a few guys would hit balls and almost stop in the fairway on impact but the machine would add extra yards.

 

 

 

Tazz

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Carry can be adjusted by adjusting altitude and temperature in the settings

[Shankster]

So say I was at a big box store, and I was hitting all the big brands, but one brand really went a lot farther than the rest, it just happened to be a big brand name. I'm saying like 15 yards further. Cranked up for sales? I know my 7 iron goes 170+ but the one brands clubs (same loft) was a rocket ship, oh and so was there drivers?

 

Paid off to make the launch monitor give a “boost”??

[null]

So say I was at a big box store, and I was hitting all the big brands, but one brand really went a lot farther than the rest, it just happened to be a big brand name. I'm saying like 15 yards further. Cranked up for sales? I know my 7 iron goes 170+ but the one brands clubs (same loft) was a rocket ship, oh and so was there drivers?

 

Paid off to make the launch monitor give a “boost”??

Unless the guy washing adjusting it in between shots then not likely. If it was one of those overhead launch monitors those things are notoriously bad about picking up consistent readings

[Shankster]

Unless the guy washing adjusting it in between shots then not likely. If it was one of those overhead launch monitors those things are notoriously bad about picking up consistent readings

It was a trackman. I actually took the club from brand a's booth, to a different one to hit the two side by side. I didn't get the booster carry on brand b's booth. Both blades. So no technology

[null]

It was a trackman. I actually took the club from brand a's booth, to a different one to hit the two side by side. I didn't get the booster carry on brand b's booth. Both blades. So no technology

What big box store has trackman? And multiple units segregated by brand?

[cnosil]

Trackman has some settings for ball type,  carry normalization, and indoor/outdoor.  You would have to make sure that the settings were identical on both launch monitors.  Could be that someone was just messing with the setup.  

[BigtazzGolf]

Carry can be adjusted by adjusting altitude and temperature in the settings

So taking this into consideration. Carry is set to players location.

The trackman carry number will equal the number it is supposed to on the ground?

 

 

 

Tazz

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[HardcoreLooper]

I can only really comment on the Trackman where my daughter works, and the numbers I get seem to agree with what I see from Arccos.

 

I do believe that some retailers juice their LMs to entice you to buy.

 

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[Shankster]

What big box store has trackman? And multiple units segregated by brand?

My bad. Foresight GC (series)

 

PGA Super Store

[null]

My bad. Foresight GC (series)

 

PGA Super Store

Yeah the foresight themselves can't be altered, but the display software can be.

[cnosil]

My bad. Foresight GC (series)

 

PGA Super Store

Even more settings than trackman. I know On the go quad you can setup wind, ground firmness, weather, altitude, etc.

 

This is why when hitting outside the ball may plug in a wet range but the LM will show the ball rolling.

 

This is why most on here at being your own clubs so you can do a side by side comparison and test using the same setup. As you have seen even the one in the next hitting bay may be different.

[null]

Even more settings than trackman. I know On the go quad you can setup wind, ground firmness, weather, altitude, etc.

 

This is why when hitting outside the ball may plug in a wet range but the LM will show the ball rolling.

 

This is why most on here at being your own clubs so you can do a side by side comparison and test using the same setup. As you have seen even the one in the next hitting bay may be different.

Precisely. No use ever trying to compare numbers across different launch monitors, or even the same launch monitor on different days.

[palvord]

You could do the MGS style of comparing side by side by (not sure how) blindly alternating swings between your clubs rather than 5 swings with Option A and then 5 swings with Option B.

 

 

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[cnosil]

From watching club review videos, my observation is that it is common for the numbers from Trackman , Quad etc... to inflate yardages (compared to what the player would likely produce on the golf course), by about 20%.

For example, if it is a teaching pro or other above average skill player swinging a 6-iron, the simulator numbers of 200 yards per shot would (on course) likely be 165-170 yards.

And higher handicap players not getting quality contact with a 7-iron, but still receiving simulator numbers of 155, I think on the golf course those mis hit shots would be in the 130-135 range.

My opinion on the above on course yardages come from experience playing golf with a wide range of players from Tour pro to club pro to long drive competitor to lots of amateurs with handicaps from 0 to 30 handicap.

I think the electronic measuring devices, simulators etc... are a separate game from real golf course. I am not sure , but I guess there are actually competitions where players may compete against each other on a simulator, and have fun doing so. So, to me, golf on the course is one game while golf using electronic measuring devices and simulators is a different game.

I know equipment companies, fitters, participants on internet discussion forums etc...believe that Trackman, Quad, simulators etc... provide a mostly accurate representation of real course golf shots, but the videos and screen shots I see online seem to inflate yardages by a significant amount. Not sure if this is due to the electronic technology just not being accurate, or if it is because the owner of the machine uses the machine settings which tend to produces inflated yardages, or both.

Launch monitors can be very accurate. Unfortunately in the Internet world people inflate their number. I have found that generally the numbers i see

On trackman and GC quad are pretty accurate for carry.

 

You assessment on carrying that over to a golf course is accurate as well. You still have to execute shots in the golf course and many times the best shot option is not a maxed out perfect launch condition shot.

 

There are balances between playing golf and evaluating numbers on a launch monitor. Golf requires decisions. Launch monitors just require you to hit the ball like on a driving range.

[HardcoreLooper]

From watching club review videos, my observation is that it is common  for the numbers from Trackman , Quad etc... to inflate yardages (compared to what the player would likely produce on the golf course), by about 20%.

For example, if it is a teaching pro or other above average skill player swinging a 6-iron, the simulator numbers  of 200 yards per shot would (on course) likely be 165-170 yards.

And higher handicap players not getting quality contact with a 7-iron, but still receiving simulator numbers of 155, I think on the golf course those mis hit shots would be in the 130-135 range....

My last session on Trackman had my 8 iron carry distance at 156, and that's how I play it. Again, I can only comment on my own game and the Trackman at The First Tee of Richmond, but it is accurate.

 

Now, the total distance is not correct, because we play bent grass greens with soil that's largely clay. Bent greens need to be kept wet to stay alive, and clay stays soft and sticky. So I'm not seeing the roll that this Trackman reports, but I don't care about that. If I need to carry the ball 150 (adjusting for wind and elevation), I know I can reasonably expect to do it with an 8. If I need to carry it 160, I'm hitting 7.

 

My opinion on the above on course yardages come from experience playing golf with a wide range of players from Tour pro to club pro to long drive competitor to lots of amateurs with handicaps from 0 to 30 handicap.

I think the electronic measuring devices, simulators etc... are a separate game from real golf course. I am not sure , but I guess there are actually competitions where players may compete against each other on a simulator, and have fun doing so. So, to me, golf on the course is one game while golf using electronic measuring devices and simulators is a different game.

I know equipment companies, fitters, participants on internet discussion forums etc...believe that Trackman, Quad, simulators etc... provide a mostly accurate representation of real course golf shots, but the videos and screen shots I see online seem to inflate yardages by a significant amount. Not sure if this is due to the electronic technology just not being accurate, or if it is because the owner of the machine uses the machine settings which tend to produces inflated yardages, or both.

Certainly, golf on a golf course is different from hitting balls on a launch monitor. Just like golf on a golf course is different from hitting balls on a driving range. Wind, slope, elevation change, etc. are all things you'll see on a golf course, but you won't see in a launch monitor bay or on a driving range (well, you'll see wind). But to say that there's no value to hitting on a launch monitor because you don't have those variables is like saying there's no value to practicing on a driving range. If I'm confident in my ability to carry an 8 iron 156 under perfectly controlled conditions, then I can start making adjustments for all the other variables when I'm on the course. If I don't really know how far I carry an 8, how can I be confident in any adjustments I make?

 

Have you hit on a properly calibrated Trackman or a GC Quad running the stock software (not a simulator, but the actual LM software) yet? I'd recommend doing it. I've seen lots of people have their eyes opened. And it's never because the machine is telling them they hit it farther than they think. It's always the reverse.