Course slope ratings

[Wedgie]

Every year a group of 8 of us go to Florida to play 6 rounds of golf. Almost every year I am the big winner but I'm always accused of being a sand bagger because I am +/- 2 strokes from my handicap every round.

 

I play a course in Rhode Island I swear is tougher than the ones in Florida. For example I hit 46% of fairways in RI and 82% in Florida because the fairways are huge. In RI they are tight with actual rough and trees. In Florida it is wide open. Greens at my course are postage stamps and in Florida they are 3 times larger. I also play next to the bay so the wind is often howling.

 

Granted my course is about 200 yards shorter but my slope is 121 and in Florida the courses we play are all around 131.

 

Are slope ratings accurate at all? How do they figure them out? I'm starting to feel bad because I try to score my best all the time no matter where I am and I don't fudge my handicap at all.

 

 

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[sp0rtsfan86]

Someone around a year ago had a post exactly detailing the process that slope is calculated from. Pete Dyes course in Vegas was 7200 yards and carried a 128 slope. My home course is a 126 at 6400 yards. Distance may be a factor ( I was hitting a lot of driver long irons/ driver 3 woods on the longer course) meaning my score would probably end up higher. It may also be your friends play one course really well but struggle anywhere else. Local knowledge is sometimes a huge gift that can save a few strokes here or there.

[Wedgie]

Someone around a year ago had a post exactly detailing the process that slope is calculated from. Pete Dyes course in Vegas was 7200 yards and carried a 128 slope. My home course is a 126 at 6400 yards. Distance may be a factor ( I was hitting a lot of driver long irons/ driver 3 woods on the longer course) meaning my score would probably end up higher. It may also be your friends play one course really well but struggle anywhere else. Local knowledge is sometimes a huge gift that can save a few strokes here or there.

Thanks, I'll try to dig it up.

 

 

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[revkev]

Lots to comment on and great question.

 

Slope is based on what the average golfer (bogey) will shoot on the course under its ordinary conditions.

 

So there are three things to consider in this case.

 

1. I'm guessing you are in Florida in the winter. Our courses play much easier in the winter than they do ordinarily because it's dry, the ball runs out reasonably well (I hit it 20 yards farther in the winter off the tee) and there is little to no rough. Play the same course from late May to October and it's a totally different animal.

 

2. The strengths of your game matter. If your weakness is driving accuracy and you are playing the typical Florida resort course they are open off the tee to help with pace of play. Catch a week without a lot of wind or play away from the coast and our courses are fairly banal - particularly if your strength is your iron and sand play.

 

3. The courses you choose matter. Length is always a factor in course and slope rating. Again if you are here in February they will play much shorter than in June. The slope is for average not when you are here.

 

 

If you want to play a tough Florida course you are welcome to come and give my club a try next time you're down. It's a very typical country club in that it has to be tough enough to challenge members who play it frequently. Local knowledge matters. There are tons of visually intimidating shots that aren't as challenging as they appear and lots of trouble that you don't notice until you find it for the first time. I guarantee you won't play to your handicap.

 

I grew up playing in New England, love the courses there but there's nothing to compare to places like Copperhead or TPC Sawgrass or Doral or even TapC Tampa Bay in terms of difficulty unless you can get on Brooklyne

 

 

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[cnosil]

Here you go.  

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/usga-course-and-slope-rating-1561294

[Wedgie]

Lots to comment on and great question.

 

Slope is based on what the average golfer (bogey) will shoot on the course under its ordinary conditions.

 

So there are three things to consider in this case.

 

1. I'm guessing you are in Florida in the winter. Our courses play much easier in the winter than they do ordinarily because it's dry, the ball runs out reasonably well (I hit it 20 yards farther in the winter off the tee) and there is little to no rough. Play the same course from late May to October and it's a totally different animal.

 

2. The strengths of your game matter. If your weakness is driving accuracy and you are playing the typical Florida resort course they are open off the tee to help with pace of play. Catch a week without a lot of wind or play away from the coast and our courses are fairly banal - particularly if your strength is your iron and sand play.

 

3. The courses you choose matter. Length is always a factor in course and slope rating. Again if you are here in February they will play much shorter than in June. The slope is for average not when you are here.

 

 

If you want to play a tough Florida course you are welcome to come and give my club a try next time you're down. It's a very typical country club in that it has to be tough enough to challenge members who play it frequently. Local knowledge matters. There are tons of visually intimidating shots that aren't as challenging as they appear and lots of trouble that you don't notice until you find it for the first time. I guarantee you won't play to your handicap.

 

I grew up playing in New England, love the courses there but there's nothing to compare to places like Copperhead or TPC Sawgrass or Doral or even TapC Tampa Bay in terms of difficulty unless you can get on Brooklyne

 

 

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Thanks Rev....I may hit you up and join you for a round. I play the PGA Village in November and it's not like I shoot lights out, just close to my handicap which annoys my friends. They seem to think you should shoot way over your handicap like they do.

 

 

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[Wedgie]

Here you go.

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/usga-course-and-slope-rating-1561294

Interesting how they calculate, thanks for sharing this. Distance really seems to be the biggest factor but still neat to see what all they look at.

 

 

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[Charli]

Yeah if your close to your number I don't see how that's sandbagging. Sounds like their numbers are better then what they reallly are

[Kenny B]

Some games travel to other courses better than other games.  

[revkev]

Thanks Rev....I may hit you up and join you for a round. I play the PGA Village in November and it's not like I shoot lights out, just close to my handicap which annoys my friends. They seem to think you should shoot way over your handicap like they do.

 

 

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That's not true. Your average score will be two or three strokes over your handicap plus the course rating. So if the course rating is 71 and your handicap is 10 you'd expect to shoot 84. 71 plus 10 plus 3.

 

Just remember and remind your friends that handicap measures potential not your expected score. You should shoot your handicap for be out of every four or five rounds.

 

If it's the one in Port St Lucie those are fun courses but also exactly as I described, wide open, not much rough so there's room off the tee. (Just as you said). My brother in law lives there and it's where we stay when we visit. They have a great handicap pool for Penny.

 

I'd love to see you when you're down. November is a great time to be in Florida.

 

 

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[Comemonday]

Every year a group of 8 of us go to Florida to play 6 rounds of golf. Almost every year I am the big winner but I'm always accused of being a sand bagger because I am +/- 2 strokes from my handicap every round.

 

I play a course in Rhode Island I swear is tougher than the ones in Florida. For example I hit 46% of fairways in RI and 82% in Florida because the fairways are huge. In RI they are tight with actual rough and trees. In Florida it is wide open. Greens at my course are postage stamps and in Florida they are 3 times larger. I also play next to the bay so the wind is often howling.

 

Granted my course is about 200 yards shorter but my slope is 121 and in Florida the courses we play are all around 131.

 

Are slope ratings accurate at all? How do they figure them out? I'm starting to feel bad because I try to score my best all the time no matter where I am and I don't fudge my handicap at all.

 

 

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nope is the short answer. Also if you keep your handicap a a qualifier course it's even better. I'll read the rest now.

 

 

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[HardcoreLooper]

Every year a group of 8 of us go to Florida to play 6 rounds of golf. Almost every year I am the big winner but I'm always accused of being a sand bagger because I am +/- 2 strokes from my handicap every round.

 

I play a course in Rhode Island I swear is tougher than the ones in Florida. For example I hit 46% of fairways in RI and 82% in Florida because the fairways are huge. In RI they are tight with actual rough and trees. In Florida it is wide open. Greens at my course are postage stamps and in Florida they are 3 times larger. I also play next to the bay so the wind is often howling.

 

Granted my course is about 200 yards shorter but my slope is 121 and in Florida the courses we play are all around 131.

 

Are slope ratings accurate at all? How do they figure them out? I'm starting to feel bad because I try to score my best all the time no matter where I am and I don't fudge my handicap at all.

 

 

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Cnosil's link really lays it out for you.

 

Personally, I see people get hung up on slope, but it's really just the way to convert your index into your course handicap for the day. A higher slope gives more help to a higher index player by converting it to a (comparatively speaking) higher handicap than a lower slope.

 

I've never seen anyone get called a sandbagger for finishing a net +2. As Rev says, that's really an average round for you. And -2 shouldn't really set off any alarms. Shooting -2 net is achievable, but it should be your best score in your last 20. Especially if you're trending down, it's reasonable. It's guys like RP58 mentions that always seem to shoot a net -5 or better in competitions that are sandbaggers.

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping-articles/how-well-should-you-play-25502.html

[Comemonday]

Here's the thing. Are you trying to lower your handicap for ego or are you trying to get your handicap to where you are in average? Average beats ego all day every day and ego guys hate that and will accuse you of sandbagging lol because their whole sense of self worth is a hugely time wasting and money wasting excuse to get away from the soon to be ex wife.

Course ratings are crap. Here's why. You have a easy super easy subdivision course joe blow membership only plays all day every day. He knows what he can hit where and how to cheat the cart path and where to miss it. Scores get lower. He thinks he's a stud. But nobody outside of joe blow membership plays that course. So his handicap is really fake. The course has a rating for crappy members making the slope rating higher even though as a group they suck. You would think because they suck so much the slope rating would go up right? It actually does in reality! And on top of that they know exactly how they can do their best there. So slope rating is increased and they get the members bounce. So when they travel to a public course they don't know at all they get hammered and complain about sandbagging lol. People who travel are 4 shots or better than those who don't.

 

So take a public course where everyone sucks. Add in a qualifier every year where they simply want to get the field through as quickly as possible (pins dead center) which counts super double for slope and you will get a super hard golf course with a hugely undervalued slope rating

 

Clear as mud

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

Course and slope ratings are a very involved process. They don't just assign a rating or slope. There is a pretty stringent process to it.

[Comemonday]

Course and slope ratings are a very involved process. They don't just assign a rating or slope. There is a pretty stringent process to it.

Hard course with no membership to drive the slope up. Add in a qualifier for a pga event of good golfers where they put the pins dead center of the greens so they can get everyone through in a day. = hard course with a low slope rating.

[cnosil]

Hard course with no membership to drive the slope up. Add in a qualifier for a pga event of good golfers where they put the pins dead center of the greens so they can get everyone through in a day. = hard course with a low slope rating.

 

a courses slope rating is not based on a clubs membership or who plays the course.  It is based on model golfers that hit the ball certain distances.  

[Comemonday]

a courses slope rating is not based on a clubs membership or who plays the course. It is based on model golfers that hit the ball certain distances.

I know from reality that isn't true.

 

 

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[revkev]

Course and slope ratings are a very involved process. They don't just assign a rating or slope. There is a pretty stringent process to it.

I don't know how Comemonday thinks slope and course rating occur but it is a very drawn out process that attempts to be fair. It follows an extremely strict protocol just as Kor.A.Door suggests.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

Hard course with no membership to drive the slope up. Add in a qualifier for a pga event of good golfers where they put the pins dead center of the greens so they can get everyone through in a day. = hard course with a low slope rating.

That's not remotely true...

It is done by a group/team from USGA.

https://www.thoughtco.com/usga-course-and-slope-rating-1561294

[Comemonday]

I don't know how Comemonday thinks slope and course rating occur but it is a very drawn out process that attempts to be fair. It follows an extremely strict protocol just as Kor.A.Door suggests.

 

 

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I explained why a member handicap is always going to complain about sandbagging. Please explain how you might be correct instead of just saying I'm a dummy.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

I explained why a member handicap is always going to complain about sandbagging. Please explain how you might be correct instead of just saying I'm a dummy.

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Please read the post above yours. It explains how they figure course/slope ratings.

[Comemonday]

Omg!!!! I actually read all of that!!!!

 

Let me save people the agony of type on the intro web.

 

What it said was a “team” meaning dudes. Decide. So this team shows up every year and adjust the slope ranking ? or is it set in Stone the day before the course opens for decades to come?

 

Can you not see how a course slope changes over the years?

 

And btw. Imagine two different teams with their golf course science that's rock hard and immovable. Do you honestly think they would come up with the same slope one day to the next?????

 

Do you even science brah?

 

My crazy answer is based upon reality I've witnessed. Maybe one day I'll be a true internet believe but it's unlikely.

 

 

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[cnosil]

My crazy answer is based upon reality I've witnessed. 

 

 

So you have been part of the group that calculates the slope rating for a course.  please educate us on  the details on how slope is actually calculated. 

[Undershooter]

3 courses in my area have had their slope/rating redone in the last 3 years. All 3 courses had changes made to them and needed to have them redone.

All of them changed marginally. 2 that were made slightly easier/shorter had their slope/rating lowered. 1 stayed basically the same bc while it had changes made, the course difficulty and length weren't any different.

Guess what.. 2 of those courses are qualifier courses for state ams and what not. 1 was the course that's rating stayed the same. The other was a course that got shorter and had their ratings lowered. And from experience, they don't put the pins in the middle. Trust me.

The course that's rating stayed the same is also off and on as a Monday qualifier site for a local pga tournament. Again, pins not usually in the middle of greens.

[Kenny B]

Courses are rated at least every 10 years and will be re-rated when courses make design mods.  The ratings are performed by a team from your local State Golf Association representing the USGA, consisting of paid employees and volunteers who have successfully completed a training program on USGA course rating procedures.  It takes about a day for a team to rate a course for all sets of tees.

 

Two years ago I observed a team from the Washington State Golf Association when they rated two courses in my area.  I was curious how they did it.  Here is my writeup on how the ratings were conducted:

 

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/17020-my-experience-with-the-wsga-course-rating-committee/

 

I can tell you that when a team comes to rate a course, they conduct the rating using the USGA procedure and workbooks independent of the previous team's rating, and then evaluate any differences and resolve..  I am confident that the procedure ensures that any team conducting the evaluation will get very similar results.

[Undershooter]

@Kenny B i thought someone had gotten to observe the exact process. I just couldn't remember who. I'll have to reread your write up!

[Rickp]

Courses are rated at least every 10 years and will be re-rated when courses make design mods. The ratings are performed by a team from your local State Golf Association representing the USGA, consisting of paid employees and volunteers who have successfully completed a training program on USGA course rating procedures. It takes about a day for a team to rate a course for all sets of tees.

 

Two years ago I observed a team from the Washington State Golf Association when they rated two courses in my area. I was curious how they did it. Here is my writeup on how the ratings were conducted:

 

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/17020-my-experience-with-the-wsga-course-rating-committee/

 

I can tell you that when a team comes to rate a course, they conduct the rating using the USGA procedure and workbooks independent of the previous team's rating, and then evaluate any differences and resolve.. I am confident that the procedure ensures that any team conducting the evaluation will get very similar results.

Thanks for attaching the write up, well done.

 

 

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[00sportsman]

Courses are rated at least every 10 years and will be re-rated when courses make design mods. The ratings are performed by a team from your local State Golf Association representing the USGA, consisting of paid employees and volunteers who have successfully completed a training program on USGA course rating procedures. It takes about a day for a team to rate a course for all sets of tees.

 

Two years ago I observed a team from the Washington State Golf Association when they rated two courses in my area. I was curious how they did it. Here is my writeup on how the ratings were conducted:

 

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/17020-my-experience-with-the-wsga-course-rating-committee/

 

I can tell you that when a team comes to rate a course, they conduct the rating using the USGA procedure and workbooks independent of the previous team's rating, and then evaluate any differences and resolve.. I am confident that the procedure ensures that any team conducting the evaluation will get very similar results.

Wow, thanks for linking to the write-up. That's really interesting and it's great that you got a chance to tag along.

 

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[Kenny B]

Wow, thanks for linking to the write-up. That's really interesting and it's great that you got a chance to tag along.

 

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I learned a lot by tagging along and asking questions.  I'm sure anyone could do that by contacting your state association's staff in charge of rating courses, and find out when a course in your area will be rated.  They are usually looking for volunteers willing to go through training.  An advantage is you may be able to play a course that you might not otherwise get to.

[Comemonday]

.

No offense intended, but sorry bruh - it's like conspiracy theories, just because you believe it to be true doesn't make it reality. And unless you're able to produce some viable evidence of it being factual, then all you're doing is suggesting you're a big dummy.

Exactly what am I to produce? How so? And if I was “choose” suddenly I'm a expert?

 

 

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