From a 5 to a 0, or from a 20 to a 5? Which is harder?

[MaxEntropy]

Those higher levels are for the elite of the elite and even sometimes even with all the practice and training you can possibly sink into something that difficult, there are just some of us who wind up hitting some sort of weird barrier with our mental game, lack of sheer ability or talent.

 

The golf "Holy Grail" of 5-to-scratch has got to be similarly hard to obtain in my opinion. Judging on how hard it is for my formerly "athletic" self to just get below 100, I know it is.

 

Great comment! As much as I enjoy the game, I honestly question whether getting to single digits is in the cards for me, much less getting to 5 or below. Natural ability MAY have been there at some point in my life, but I suspect other barriers have become more important - time, age, and money.

[GolfJunkie302]

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Realistically, considering you've been playing since you were 12, you've got better odds of hitting the lottery and dating a supermodel and flying on the space shuttle.

Why do you say that? sgold said he only started playing seriously last August. Over the course of fall, winter, and spring, he has shaved 15 strokes off his score. I think it's totally possible for him to get to single digits over the next couple years. He can also hit it long. You can teach a long hitter to hit it straight, but you can't teach speed.

 

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[Zylem]

If I can add to what RP has said, having goals in anything is great. But focusing on a goal of breaking 70 when you haven't broken 80 could lead to burning out. I would just suggest adding some smaller goals in between. Average 2 less putts for ten rounds, or hit one more green in regulation. If you had to eat a whale, you can only do it one bite at a time.

 

 

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[kingcscott]

My 2-cents...

 

I was immersed in competitive target shooting for years in the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) using a service rifle (AR-15) across the National Match Course format (200, 300 & 600-yds w/open sights). As a former Marine, the AR-15/M-16 platform was VERY familiar to me and after only a year of shooting this format, I went right up into expert classification (89-93.99%). My primary goal in this sport was to not only become "distinguished", but also move classification up to at least Master (94-96.99%) or even to the elite High Master level (97% & above).

 

To move up to Master, all I needed to do was be in the 10-ring by more than 94% of the time. My averages at the time were in the 91-93% range and I basically just needed to hit 3 or 4 more 10's or X's per match to move up, so easy right??? WRONG! I shot for over 12-years. I lived that sport from top-to-bottom, had the best equipment & ammunition available, became a coach, line judge, Match Director and even held board positions (V.P.) at my club. Despite all this, I was unable to obtain either of my goals.

 

Those higher levels are for the elite of the elite and even sometimes even with all the practice and training you can possibly sink into something that difficult, there are just some of us who wind up hitting some sort of weird barrier with our mental game, lack of sheer ability or talent.

 

The golf "Holy Grail" of 5-to-scratch has got to be similarly hard to obtain in my opinion. Judging on how hard it is for my formerly "athletic" self to just get below 100, I know it is.

just curious, fellow Leatherneck, what did you shoot in USMC quals? My best was a 236 I think. I did love shooting that M16.

 

 

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[PING Apologist #9]

just curious, fellow Leatherneck, what did you shoot in USMC quals? My best was a 236 I think. I did love shooting that M16.

 

 

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I'll send you a PM so as not to derail this thread-Semper Fi Bro!

[revkev]

Are we talking about a hack who just wants to have fun with his buds, or are we talking about somebody who's devoting time and money into reaching scratch? My graph depicts the latter. It was simply to show that it takes longer to go from 5-0 than it does 20-5. If you guys want, I can go back and delete my graphs so we aren't spreading misinformation on here.

 

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I certainly am incapable of drawing a graph so it's not commentary on the graph. The probability of a 5 getting to a scratch would seem to be nearly statistically impossible regardless of what he or she does. One can see that from the raw numbers without looking at a graph.

 

Of course it would be easier for a 5 to become a scratch than a scratch to become a touring pro.

 

 

 

 

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[Sluggo42]

I certainly am incapable of drawing a graph so it's not commentary on the graph. The probability of a 5 getting to a scratch would seem to be nearly statistically impossible regardless of what he or she does. One can see that from the raw numbers without looking at a graph.

Of course it would be easier for a 5 to become a scratch than a scratch to become a touring pro.

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I'm guessing that getting to scratch for a really solid player, on his home track 2 times a week, is a completely different realm than what a touring pro does on a weekly basis at the hardest tracks in the world..

A touring pro probably hits 500 balls a day? Every day for the most part? Plus most are 40 years old or less.

[revkev]

I'm guessing that getting to scratch for a really solid player, on his home track 2 times a week, is a completely different realm than what a touring pro does on a weekly basis at the hardest tracks in the world..

A touring pro probably hits 500 balls a day? Every day for the most part? Plus most are 40 years old or less.

The gap is a chasm - they play longer, tougher courses with tighter pin placements and shot lower scores. We had a discussion about this not long ago - an average touring pro is around a plus 7 or 8 on our scale.

 

 

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[palvord]

5 to 0 is the hardest. Like learning any skill in life, the last part of the growth process is always the hardest.

 

 

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[Sluggo42]

The gap is a chasm - they play longer, tougher courses with tighter pin placements and shot lower scores. We had a discussion about this not long ago - an average touring pro is around a plus 7 or 8 on our scale.

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That's crazy isn't it?

Those guys are just sooooo good. I think it's closer to chasm... in the middle of the Pacific Ocean...at night....600 feet deep.... in a dense fog....with 80 mph winds...surrounded by snakes and spiders...

[JTexGolfer]

I'd say 5 to 0. Those last few shots are SO hard to come by. Your practice time has to go up exponentially.

 

And I also agree with the post that a Tour Pro is probably a +7 or +8 on our courses. Those guys are just ridiculously good.

[Gg Owen]

5 to 0.The 20 to 5 could be a series of lessons and had work

[RoverRick]

Okay, I'll weigh in on this. I have made, or attempted, this journey, both ways. And first, let me say to get from say 5 to 20 doesn't take much work at all.

 

In 2009 I set a goal to be a zero handicap on my 50th birthday on May 14, 2014. Most of my work at the time was centered in Europe so at 2pm my time, they were in bed, so I could go to the course and practice. At the end of April 2014, I had an  outstanding week of golf, 5 or 6 rounds in the 60's. This dropped my handicap to 0.6 for a brief period, but never got closer. I think I was just below 1 on my birthday. I hovered around a 2-3 that early summer and up to 5-6 by the end of the summer.

 

The reasons for this was that I had reached my self-imposed deadline and didn't have the same motivation. I, also, was focusing on other things like work.

 

Sadly, my work situation changed in August, and I went from being able to practice/play every day, to playing 3 days a week, to playing once a week, to once a month, to once a year.

 

The commitment to get below 5 is great. You also have to be able to focus on nothing else while on the course. This turned out to be my issue. Instead of thinking about THIS SHOT, I was thinking about work issues, and the concentration simply wasn't there.

 

I bring all this up because at that level it requires much more than simply golf skills. By the time you get to a 5 you have the physical skills required to shoot par or better, and probably already have done it on occassion. But to do it consistently enough to drop the handicap is much more difficult.

[GregB135]

Here's another factor that came up in discussion after my league round yesterday. There are players out there who mis-use the 'equitable stroke control' guidelines during a round rather than after.

Another player was relaying a story about an acquaintance who claims a 6 handicap but plays to more like a 12 or 13. This player would on occasion refer to the ESC guideline that he should not record a score above double bogey, and pick up a ball in play upon reaching that stroke limit other than complete the hole and make the adjustment post round.

While that strategy does help to speed up play, it is counter to the intent of the guidelines and does nothing but artificially lower the players official handicap. And though it might feel good to say "I'm a 6", it will show true in a stroke play event where the ball must be played through the hole. 

Thoughts?

[RoverRick]

Here's another factor that came up in discussion after my league round yesterday. There are players out there who mis-use the 'equitable stroke control' guidelines during a round rather than after.

Another player was relaying a story about an acquaintance who claims a 6 handicap but plays to more like a 12 or 13. This player would on occasion refer to the ESC guideline that he should not record a score above double bogey, and pick up a ball in play upon reaching that stroke limit other than complete the hole and make the adjustment post round.

While that strategy does help to speed up play, it is counter to the intent of the guidelines and does nothing but artificially lower the players official handicap. And though it might feel good to say "I'm a 6", it will show true in a stroke play event where the ball must be played through the hole. 

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts are while these are valid points, and a great discussion piece, it is a bit off the topic of is it easier to go from a 20 to a 5 or 5 to 0 handicap.

 

However, this should not have a great effect on a low handicapper. Sure anyone can blow up on a hole, think of Speith and Garcia at various masters. But rarely does a low handicapper make more than a double bogey.

 

Even after not playing for 15 months, in 6 rounds since my return, I have just one triple bogey. I have many many double bogies. You simply know damage control. Of course I am playing the course I have played thousands of times, and that is way different than on an unfamiliar course. But this is also a different thread.

[Sluggo42]

And finally, can a guy call himself a scratch player- when playing from the white tees?, or blue tees for that matter?

[RoverRick]

And finally, can a guy call himself a scratch player- when playing from the white tees?, or blue tees for that matter?

 

Absolutely! That's why they have different ratings and different tees.

[GolfJunkie302]

And finally, can a guy call himself a scratch player- when playing from the white tees?, or blue tees for that matter?

Of course! You just might have to shoot more rounds closer to 69, 70. You could play Oakmont from the tips and be a scratch player by shooting 75 or 76.

 

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[gaussman1]

Here's another factor that came up in discussion after my league round yesterday. There are players out there who mis-use the 'equitable stroke control' guidelines during a round rather than after.

Another player was relaying a story about an acquaintance who claims a 6 handicap but plays to more like a 12 or 13. This player would on occasion refer to the ESC guideline that he should not record a score above double bogey, and pick up a ball in play upon reaching that stroke limit other than complete the hole and make the adjustment post round.

While that strategy does help to speed up play, it is counter to the intent of the guidelines and does nothing but artificially lower the players official handicap. And though it might feel good to say "I'm a 6", it will show true in a stroke play event where the ball must be played through the hole.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure why there would be a difference when applying ESC. Your max is your max for handicap purposes, why would it matter if the player picks up on a hole vs altering post-round?

[GregB135]

I'm not sure why there would be a difference when applying ESC. Your max is your max for handicap purposes, why would it matter if the player picks up on a hole vs altering post-round?

It would depend on the number and frequency of 'pick-ups'. If Mr. 'I'm a 6' picks up at double bogey only once or twice per round then he is are probably a legit 6. If, like my friends example, Mr. 'I'm a 6' is picking up double at double bogey 6-7  times per round to avoid carding the triple/quad the score becomes artificially too low.

In the end, the pick-it-up early practice only hurts the player. When Mr. 6 goes to the stroke play tournament and has to play everything through the hole, including the 6-7 triples/quads, he winds up finishing last because he used an inaccurate handicap.  Of course, that won't keep Mr. 6 from grumbling about 'just having a bad day' afterwards.

That's why tourney rounds are accounted differently, they use raw score rather than ESC.

[Lefty78]

Probably more difficult for someone who begins playing as a 20 to get to 5 than for someone who begins playing as a 5 to get to scratch.  

 

I see it a lot, the kids, who have had lessons since knee high, start as single digits HCs and are scratch in short order.  

 

People who are self-taught in the beginning may be 20 hc and really struggle to get anywhere near 5.  More likely to be 10-12 at best. 

 

If the question is the same golfer going from 20 to scratch, I doubt that happens very often.  Most of the folks I know with talent but no training, start in the high teens and might make it to 4-5 but seldom further. 

[gaussman1]

It would depend on the number and frequency of 'pick-ups'. If Mr. 'I'm a 6' picks up at double bogey only once or twice per round then he is are probably a legit 6. If, like my friends example, Mr. 'I'm a 6' is picking up double at double bogey 6-7 times per round to avoid carding the triple/quad the score becomes artificially too low.

In the end, the pick-it-up early practice only hurts the player. When Mr. 6 goes to the stroke play tournament and has to play everything through the hole, including the 6-7 triples/quads, he winds up finishing last because he used an inaccurate handicap. Of course, that won't keep Mr. 6 from grumbling about 'just having a bad day' afterwards.

That's why tourney rounds are accounted differently, they use raw score rather than ESC.

I agree with you completely that guy is going to get slaughtered in stroke play but for handicap purposes it shouldn't matter whether he makes a 10 on a hole or picks up and takes max. It gets recorded as double bogey either way. I would think that guy won't be a single digit handicap for long no matter what.

[golfinnut]

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But that even lessens the accuracy of your graph, in comparison to the OP, because they didn't mention a time frame. ... And in the greater scheme of stats, there are few if any golfers during a 5 year period that go from never having played to a 20 to a 5, and the ones that go from 20 to scratch  during that period are probably 1-in-10,000,000 ... Lesson being, when you draw graphs you have to show it relative to the bigger picture, and graphs ain't easy, and you're showing that there are just as many scratch golfers within 5 years as there are new golfers with 20s.

just sayin'

 

So something more like this, and this isn't even good. ... >

(there, fixed it, now it's square, 2 minutes total)

 

 

 

By this graph, I should be playing on Tour!  HA!      Cause I've got over 40 years playing under my belt & the lowest I've ever been was a 2 handicap in college.