Putt-out or not putt-out in scramble format?

[PING Apologist #9]

During a discussion in another thread, I had made mention that during an informal team vs. team casual scramble we did last weekend, I had made a birdie putt attempt, missed it but tapped it in for par before the final member of our team attempted his birdie try.

 

It was pointed out that what I really should have done was to mark my shot and wait for all members to finish their attempts first, otherwise the tap-in would count and no other attempts should be tried or would not count since the hole was "over" at that point.

 

I really didn't think this method during a scramble format was against any rules until I heard this and it actually makes sense. My instinct at the time was to tap it in only because I was within "gimme" range and that my marker may affect the next shot attempt-I simply wanted to get out of the way and that would be the "normal" thing to do when playing a regular type of round and not in a scramble.

 

There were a couple of responses from that other thread that were interesting and were enough for me to start this string. One was about pace of play and the other was that the rules are the rules.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts, opinions on this matter and or maybe even get the true "skinny" on the rule. Our group has yet to participate in a formal tournament, but if we do, I want us to play & practice by the rules at all times, so...Set us straight Spies!!!

[GolfJunkie302]

I am fine with tapping it in. It speeds up pace of play, which is a big deal right now. Scrambles are just for fun anyway. If for some absurd reason the USGA adopted a scramble format tournament, it would be against the rules to tap in and then let others try to make the first putt.

 

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[THEZIPR23]

Once a putt is holed the hole is over and the score counts regardless if there are more attempts. That being said a lot of times scrambles are just hit a giggle type tournaments where the rules of golf are taking for granted. However is you are playing in a formal tournament that includes a scramble where the rules are taking seriously don't hole out. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

I'm in the Scrambles are for fun camp. For the sake of everyone's time, tap it in take the other putts and move on.  I've yet to ever see a scramble tournament that is serious, and I'm counting ones, where I've paid $300 or more entry fee and flown from MD to Kansas or Florida to play in it.   Not being a jerk here, I know a bit about them,  they really aren't that serious, I mean it's what I do for a living, so I see over 100 of them a year. 

[gaussman1]

Someone mentioned in the other thread that more and more scrambles are going to automatic 2 putt or no worse than par format. I've seen more of that last couple years as well and am a big fan. Speeds up play and puts this particular argument to bed. Auto 2 putts for all!

[PING Apologist #9]

Someone mentioned in the other thread that more and more scrambles are going to automatic 2 putt or no worse than par format. I've seen more of that last couple years as well and am a big fan. Speeds up play and puts this particular argument to bed. Auto 2 putts for all!

Do you have to be within a certain range of the hole? Or is it a 2-put "gimme", just pick the ball up and move on once on the green?

[gaussman1]

I'm in the Scrambles are for fun camp. For the sake of everyone's time, tap it in take the other putts and move on. I've yet to ever see a scramble tournament that is serious, and I'm counting ones, where I've paid $300 or more entry fee and flown from MD to Kansas or Florida to play in it. Not being a jerk here, I know a bit about them, they really aren't that serious, I mean it's what I do for a living, so I see over 100 of them a year.

I'm picturing that as a level of hell reserved for USGA blue coats. It's a scramble every day on slow greens with mandatory Fireball shots on the Par 3s and music speakers in all the carts. The winning team is always drunk 25 handicappers and they always win the long drive and closest to the pin contests. They also eagle all the par 5s to shoot -22 every day and beat the USGA officials by 1. 2nd place wins a 1/2 price 4some at a muni by the train tracks where jeans and t shirts (or no shirts!) are perfectly acceptable. The worst part for the USGA guys is everyone else is having a great time!

[gaussman1]

Do you have to be within a certain range of the hole? Or is it a 2-put "gimme", just pick the ball up and move on once on the green?

No it just means there's no 3 putts. So no need to tap anything in. Everyone try to make the first one and rake away anything that doesn't go in. Even if they get tapped in it doesn't matter.

No worse than par is even better. Didn't hit the green? Chipped to 30 feet? Who cares, that's a par, let's move on!

[MGoBlue100]

Do you have to be within a certain range of the hole? Or is it a 2-put "gimme", just pick the ball up and move on once on the green?

I also play in a lot of these; some “hit & giggle” association events, some for quite a bit of cash. If it's within a foot, just pick it up. If a competitor has THAT big an issue with it, don't invite them back. Good grief, it's a SCRAMBLE, to begin with.

 

 

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[MGoBlue100]

I'm picturing that as a level of hell reserved for USGA blue coats. It's a scramble every day on slow greens with mandatory Fireball shots on the Par 3s and music speakers in all the carts. The winning team is always drunk 25 handicappers and they always win the long drive and closest to the pin contests. They also eagle all the par 5s to shoot -22 every day and beat the USGA officials by 1. 2nd place wins a 1/2 price 4some at a muni by the train tracks where jeans and t shirts (or no shirts!) are perfectly acceptable. The worst part for the USGA guys is everyone else is having a great time!

This is one of the best replies I've ever read on here. Nothing would make me happier than all of those USGA dorks existing like this for eternity...

 

 

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[PING Apologist #9]

No it just means there's no 3 putts. So no need to tap anything in. Everyone try to make the first one and rake away anything that doesn't go in. Even if they get tapped in it doesn't matter.

No worse than par is even better. Didn't hit the green? Chipped to 30 feet? Who cares, that's a par, let's move on!

Gotcha, OK thanks!

[PING Apologist #9]

.

I've been reading along with the thread of the pop-up notifications as some of you have responded here, and I'm just going to add my 2-cents worth >>>

 

 

I can honestly say I never really payed much attention to these scramble tournaments when I was younger, being as I concentrated in stroke play events, until we moved to a community that had many of them that were flighted - so you had to have an A (0-5 handicap), B (5-10), C (10-15), & D (above 15) player in your group, played on all the local courses. And being as I was a teaching pro, I found myself often invited to play in groups' A-player.

I found them entertaining, low key, and kinda fun - and being as some of the funds went to a local charity or something I didn't mind donating to a good cause. And as scrambles go, you find yourself losing more than winning regardless how well you play, as there's always teams that manage to shoot some kind of 24-under scores or something. ... But like I said, they were fun and great camaraderie.

 

So once, when the group I was a part of was really playing well and getting ready to post a really good score, I'd laced a shot to within 4 foot of the hole on the 17th green. And after I'd marked my ball and was cleaning it, someone in my group said "go ahead and drop it in," so I putted first which I hadn't done all day. I hit the putt, and as luck would have it lipped it out, and being as I was chasing it into the hole, as was natural I reached out and tapped it in. ... The other players in the group gasped, I realized my gaff of etiquette, but somebody said something about it being a gimme and not to worry about it - and the rest of the group took their turns and somebody made it, and I thought nothing more about it.

 

So after we'd posted our card, along with the other teams, and we'd been declared the winners - somebody in the back of the clubhouse pipped in, "Hey, where's their card? Because I saw one of them play out before everybody else on the 17th."

Someone in my group chimed in, "Well, it was a gimme. But I made the putt."

Another guy chirped, "There's no such a thing as gimmes in tournaments."

And somebody else in the room, yelled, "You can't give gimmes to yourself, only somebody else can."

And soon everybody in the room was yelling back and forth about cheating.

 

The resident pro looked at me, and nodded for me to join him in the next room.

He asked me what had happened, and I told him.

And he said, "So YOU made a par before the rest of the group attempted the putt?" And I nodded to the affirmative.

And he said, "So you realize why there's a problem here, right?" And I couldn't really argue, as I HAD putted out.

As we headed back into the room he said, "You remember the pre-tournament pow-wow, and how I mentioned following USGA Rules other than what was noted on the tournament's rules sheet your team got when y'all signed up, and I'm certain it mentioned marking your ball and putting out." And I nodded again.

 

I huddled quickly with my playing partners, explaining the situation, and then stood up in front of the other groups and admitted our group's "situation," how it was my mistake, and that we'd withdraw our score on the hole - and even agree to have our team DQ'd for singing an improper scorecard. ... The yelling stopped, but now my group was glaring at me.

The pro them said something to the effect of that we were being given a 2-stroke penalty (putting us into a tie for 3rd place), and the room calmed even more.

I donated my share of the winnings to the group, to be split amount my 3 playing partners, which eased their pain.

I felt terrible.

 

Later, as I was loading my clubs into the truck of my car in the parking lot, and one of the players from the winning team walked up to me and said, "That was the most honest thing I've ever witnessed, but thanks a lot." We laughed. And he handed me his trophy he received, saying, "This is yours." And I said "how about we split it, and screwed the little golfer off the top and dropped it into my pocket and handed the rest back to him. And he said, "You're not going to mind if I keep the cash though, are you?" And we laughed some more, shook hands, and went on our separate ways.

 

That little gold golfer figurine sits somewhere on the trophy shelf, with a little piece of masking tape on which I'd scrawled with a sharpie, "always follow the rules." Great lesson and great reminder.

.

 

... Now what's right or wrong for anyone else here, not sure there's an answer - I guess that comes down to the tournament and the format you're playing in. Keep it friendly, no sense making enemies over a silly tournament.

 

 

This is a great write-up RP, I really appreciate it and it helps me settle my question completely. As I said, even though we've not yet played in a tournament, I've always thought best to play by the rules in any given game or sport or whatever. Having this particular issue cleared up now will allow us to do so in the future and better prepare us for when we do make an attempt or 6. Thank-you!

[Zylem]

Someone mentioned in the other thread that more and more scrambles are going to automatic 2 putt or no worse than par format. I've seen more of that last couple years as well and am a big fan. Speeds up play and puts this particular argument to bed. Auto 2 putts for all!

Funny you should mention this, the last scramble I played in had a no worse that par rule. I believe they worded as par was as much fun as each hole needed.

 

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[Miboy62]

Never played in a par rule scramble.

Sounds like it would move along a lot faster.

[Golfspy_CG2]

As for the max par score it does help psce. And doesnt affect scoring as if you're struggling to make par in a scramble, you're not playing for first.

 

Our Pro has fun with it in the announcements

 

"Par is the max score for any hole. So if you're in a bunker sitting par. Save yourself the trouble. Pick the ball up, crack another beer and head to the next tee and talk about the Caps win!"

 

 

 

 

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[PMookie]

I don't ever tap mine in unless I'm last, but if I haven't had a stab and one is made, I do putt after we've holed-out.

 

 

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[russtopherb]

I've only ever played in scrambles "for fun" and I recall a few times where someone putted in for par after missing the first birdie putt and said "ok we're in for par, let's go for birdie" and no one had any problem whatsoever with that.

[Golfspy_CG2]

I've only ever played in scrambles "for fun" and I recall a few times where someone putted in for par after missing the first birdie putt and said "ok we're in for par, let's go for birdie" and no one had any problem whatsoever with that.

So much this!!

 

 

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[downlowkey]

I've been reading along with the thread of the pop-up notifications as some of you have responded here, and I'm just going to add my 2-cents worth >>>

 

 

I can honestly say I never really payed much attention to these scramble tournaments when I was younger, being as I concentrated in stroke play events, until we moved to a community that had many of them that were flighted - so you had to have an A (0-5 handicap), B (5-10), C (10-15), & D (above 15) player in your group, played on all the local courses. And being as I was a teaching pro, I found myself often invited to play in groups' A-player.

I found them entertaining, low key, and kinda fun - and being as some of the funds went to a local charity or something I didn't mind donating to a good cause. And as scrambles go, you find yourself losing more than winning regardless how well you play, as there's always teams that manage to shoot some kind of 24-under scores or something. ... But like I said, they were fun and great camaraderie.

 

So once, when the group I was a part of was really playing well and getting ready to post a really good score, I'd laced a shot to within 4 foot of the hole on the 17th green. And after I'd marked my ball and was cleaning it, someone in my group said "go ahead and drop it in," so I putted first which I hadn't done all day. I hit the putt, and as luck would have it lipped it out, and being as I was chasing it into the hole, as was natural I reached out and tapped it in. ... The other players in the group gasped, I realized my gaff of etiquette, but somebody said something about it being a gimme and not to worry about it - and the rest of the group took their turns and somebody made it, and I thought nothing more about it.

 

So after we'd posted our card, along with the other teams, and we'd been declared the winners - somebody in the back of the clubhouse pipped in, "Hey, where's their card? Because I saw one of them play out before everybody else on the 17th."

Someone in my group chimed in, "Well, it was a gimme. But I made the putt."

Another guy chirped, "There's no such a thing as gimmes in tournaments."

And somebody else in the room, yelled, "You can't give gimmes to yourself, only somebody else can."

And soon everybody in the room was yelling back and forth about cheating.

 

The resident pro looked at me, and nodded for me to join him in the next room.

He asked me what had happened, and I told him.

And he said, "So YOU made a par before the rest of the group attempted the putt?" And I nodded to the affirmative.

And he said, "So you realize why there's a problem here, right?" And I couldn't really argue, as I HAD putted out.

As we headed back into the room he said, "You remember the pre-tournament pow-wow, and how I mentioned following USGA Rules other than what was noted on the tournament's rules sheet your team got when y'all signed up, and I'm certain it mentioned marking your ball and putting out." And I nodded again.

 

I huddled quickly with my playing partners, explaining the situation, and then stood up in front of the other groups and admitted our group's "situation," how it was my mistake, and that we'd withdraw our score on the hole - and even agree to have our team DQ'd for singing an improper scorecard. ... The yelling stopped, but now my group was glaring at me.

The pro them said something to the effect of that we were being given a 2-stroke penalty (putting us into a tie for 3rd place), and the room calmed even more.

I donated my share of the winnings to the group, to be split amoung my 3 playing partners, which eased their pain.

I felt terrible.

 

Later, as I was loading my clubs into the truck of my car in the parking lot, and one of the players from the winning team walked up to me and said, "That was the most honest thing I've ever witnessed, but thanks a lot." We laughed. And he handed me his trophy he received, saying, "This is yours." And I said "how about we split it," and screwed the little golfer off the top and dropped it into my pocket and handed the rest back to him. And he said, "You're not going to mind if I keep the cash though, are you?" And we laughed some more, shook hands, and went on our separate ways.

 

That little gold golfer figurine sits somewhere on the trophy shelf, with a little piece of masking tape on which I'd scrawled with a sharpie, "always follow the rules." Great lesson and great reminder.

 

... Now what's right or wrong for anyone else here, not sure there's an answer - I guess that comes down to the tournament and the format you're playing in. Keep it friendly, no sense making enemies over a silly tournament.

 

 

 

Your self-proclaimed "gaff of etiquette" was technically a breach of tournament procedure plainly conveyed on the rules sheet. Despite being your team's A player and a self-professed "Teaching Professional", what began with the appropriately salient gasps of your teammates, implausibly culminated in your thinking "nothing more about it". The notion of a "Professional" ignoring the self-policing requisite in a tournament format turns my stomach; but you managed to take it to a whole new level with that drawn out and misleading allegory.

 

To be clear, your actions were the cause of an entire room of golfers to scream at one another about individual degrees of integrity. And while we're being technical, your team should have been DQ'd as a result of your attempted cheating. Yet somehow, the string of terrible choices leading up to being erroneously awarded a tie for 3rd place (presumably cheating the rightful 3rd place team out of half their prizes) and sharing it here years later, has you laboring under the false impression that your reminder to "always follow the rules" could ever pass for anything more than a hollow humblebrag. Regarding this particular scenario alone; believing any of your behavior up to the present (including the clumsily disguised self-praise in your recounting) could be framed as laudable is both laughable and ironic.

 

(Not so fun being on the receiving end of a pedantic bully in a public forum is it?)

[SeeMore Putts]

Your self-proclaimed "gaff of etiquette" was technically a breach of tournament procedure plainly conveyed on the rules sheet. Despite being your team's A player and a self-professed "Teaching Professional", what began with the appropriately salient gasps of your teammates, implausibly culminated in your thinking "nothing more about it". The notion of a "Professional" ignoring the self-policing requisite in a tournament format turns my stomach; but you managed to take it to a whole new level with that drawn out and misleading allegory.

 

To be clear, your actions were the cause of an entire room of golfers to scream at one another about individual degrees of integrity. And while we're being technical, your team should have been DQ'd as a result of your attempted cheating. Yet somehow, the string of terrible choices leading up to being erroneously awarded a tie for 3rd place (presumably cheating the rightful 3rd place team out of half their prizes) and sharing it here years later, has you laboring under the false impression that your reminder to "always follow the rules" could ever pass for anything more than a hollow humblebrag. Regarding this particular scenario alone; believing any of your behavior up to the present (including the clumsily disguised self-praise in your recounting) could be framed as laudable is both laughable and ironic.

 

(Not so fun being on the receiving end of a pedantic bully in a public forum is it?)

I don't understand how anyone could take offense to this well written anecdote. It was a tap in, he didn't lie about it, why so personal?

 

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[EthanSterlingPrice]

The groups I play those in do strap so more often than not the tap in doesn't happen like you said. I don't have any problem with it but there's always someone right?

 

 

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[downlowkey]

I don't understand how anyone could take offense to this well written anecdote. It was a tap in, he didn't lie about it, why so personal?

 

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Fully aware it was wrong, he "thought nothing more of it" until confronted during the award ceremony. Subsequently copping to the truth under questioning and trying to frame it as "the most honest thing...ever witnessed" is the definition of exposing and whitewashing a lie. Claiming to be a "professional" and absolving himself of personal accountability because an amateur teammate told him "it's a tap in, don't worry about it" is a scenario I find personally offensive. In the words of Walter Sobchak "this is not 'Nam...there are rules". In reality it has nothing to do with the tap-in and everything to do with the confrontation necessary to bring out the truth. All golfers (particularly professionals) are expected to police themselves, in this case that didn't happen.

 

But my real issue with our resident troll is his predilection for covertly editing his original posts willy nilly. It's bad for business. His most recent post in this thread is in its 4th or 5th iteration - the 2nd referenced the "mistake (my) Dad made by not pulling out". Without all the context I can understand your position but you are coming to the defense of MGS' "most hated" poster as he attempts to convince us that despite all behavior to the contrary he has exhibited in this community, he's really a good guy.

[SeeMore Putts]

Fully aware it was wrong, he "thought nothing more of it" until confronted during the award ceremony. Subsequently copping to the truth under questioning and trying to frame it as "the most honest thing...ever witnessed" is the definition of exposing and whitewashing a lie. Claiming to be a "professional" and absolving himself of personal accountability because an amateur teammate told him "it's a tap in, don't worry about it" is a scenario I find personally offensive. In the words of Walter Sobchak "this is not 'Nam...there are rules". In reality it has nothing to do with the tap-in and everything to do with the confrontation necessary to bring out the truth. All golfers (particularly professionals) are expected to police themselves, in this case that didn't happen.

 

But my real issue with our resident troll is his predilection for covertly editing his original posts willy nilly. It's bad for business. His most recent post in this thread is in its 4th or 5th iteration - the 2nd referenced the "mistake (my) Dad made by not pulling out". Without all the context I can understand your position but you are coming to the defense of MGS' "most hated" poster as he attempts to convince us that despite all behavior to the contrary he has exhibited in this community, he's really a good guy.

Ok, thanks.

 

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[STUDque]

Hey guys. This thread is about putting out in scrambles. Let's not forget that.

 

 

If there's personal issues that need to be hashed out, let's take it offline in a PM. Feel free to CC me as a mediator.

 

 

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[GolfSpy Barbajo]

.

No, it's just because downlowkey is an angry little man.

It's because he's got nothing else to do than to chase me around this forum stalking my posts.

It's because he's got anger issues, in that he finds it okay to personally attack people, repeatedly, but yet acts offended when they reply in kind.

It's that he's upset that I, and others, use the editing function in this forum to fix or update our replies in this forum.

It's that he's not mature enough to ignore posts, or posters, in which their responses he doesn't agree with - which is what an adult would do.

It's because he's got no life, and finds it worthwhile staying until 2:19 AM posting online.

It's that he's a wanna-be tough guy that takes pleasure in going around trolling people's comments, and offensively replying to them, because he's a pathetic little keyboard cowboy.

And then he likes to pretend he's an admin/mod of this forum, which he's not, and use it as a basis to threaten other members' status here like he's going to do something.

 

Personal attacks have no place in our forum. This ends now.

 

Am I being clear enough?

[PING Apologist #9]

Sheesh!!!

 

Thanks Barbajo.

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...er...clubhouse, Ping Apologist was just looking for solid advice...

[Golfspy_CG2]

I'd be lying if I said some of the responses here haven't made me rethink my stance.   I still stand by it seems silly and a waste of time to mark a 2 inch putt while everyone else is taking their birdie putts.

 

But that said, I am generally a "rules" person in all aspects of my life, so it makes me think, who am I to determine what rules are silly and okay to break?   Despite the detour it took for a bit, it's been a good thought provoking thread PA9!    

 

Thanks for starting it.

[PING Apologist #9]

I'd be lying if I said some of the responses here haven't made me rethink my stance.   I still stand by it seems silly and a waste of time to mark a 2 inch putt while everyone else is taking their birdie putts.

 

But that said, I am generally a "rules" person in all aspects of my life, so it makes me think, who am to determine what rules are silly and ok to break?   Despite the detour it took for a bit, it's been a good thought provoking thread PA9!    

 

Thanks for starting it.

You bet Rob! Generally, I've been enjoying everyone's feedback on their stances and I thank you all for them thus far. There are indeed all kinds of little nuances to this silly little game that I'm not privy to yet or haven't seen happen, and it's fun to run across one every now and again that gets everyone going. This one, while started accidently in a different thread, seems to be a good one so far, so keep 'em coming Spies!

[Kor.A.Door]

Usually in scrambles the tournament committee will determine whether or not the holed putt is the score that counts. Most of the fun charity scrambles that ive played its not as formal, but I have played in some where it's very formal, very competitive, and once a putt is holed, that score is counted there are no more attempts at birdie or eagle.

 

I prefer the fun scrambles, because well, there just more fun. The proceeds go to a good cause and we had fun golfing.

 

The other scrambles, the money goes back to the tournament in most cases, so guys get very upset about playing the rules as set up by the committee.

[Peaksy68]

Scrambles are not really covered by the normal Rules of Golf, as they are technically a "novelty" event. Most scrambles I've played in over the last few years have had allowed tap ins but lowest score still counts. They also allow a second ball to be used for second shots to save time either looking or going forward and back to collect a ball that isn't being used as the teams shot.

 

Both these event rules have sped things up a little, but they are still ridiculously slow events.