Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Trouble with Par 4s?


Recommended Posts

I was going through my Grint data (thanks to this forum for turning me on to it! I'm now a paying member) and my average score on par 4s is almost a full stroke more than my average on 3s and 5s. According to this I'd be a bogey golfer if it wasn't for par 4s.

Does anyone else struggle consistently depending on the par of the hole? What's your reasoning for it?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Driver -  :callaway-small: Big Bertha Alpha

3W -  :callaway-small: XHot Pro

3 Hybrid - :taylormade-small: Rescue 11

4-PW - Maltby DBM Forged

52 -  :vokey-small: SM4

56 -  :cleveland-small: RTX-3

60 - Scratch SS

Putter -  :seemore-small: FGP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Par 5s. My reasoning is I'm over swinging thinking I'm going to reach the green in two but in reality usually hit worse shots than normal.

 

MDGolfHacker

TSssWhat's In This Lefty's Bag?

Driver: :titleist-small: TSR2 11° Project X HZRDUS Black 4G 60g 5.5 Flex

Fairway Woods: :cobra-small: F8 3W Project X Even Flow Blue 75g shaft

Fairway Woods: 

Hybrid: :titelist-small: TSR2  18° Graphite Design Tour AD DI-85 Shaft

Irons: :titelist-small: 2021 T200's 4-GW AMT RED shafts Regular Flex

Wedge: :cleveland-small: Tour Satin RTX 4 Wedges in 52° and 56° 2 Dot

Putter: :nevercompromise-small: Gray Matter TDP 2.2 32.75"

Bag: :1590477705_SunMountain: Three 5

Ball:  :titelist-small:  PRO V1 / :srixon-small: Z*Star

RangeFinder:918457628_PrecisionPro: In search of new range finder

Social Media:

Facebook:   MD Golfhacker
Twitter:        @mdgolfhacker
Instagram:   mdgolfhacker

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It all depends on what clubs you are hitting into the par 4's.  I don't hit the ball as far as I used to, but I hit it much straighter.  However, on long par 4's I am coming into the greens with hybrids more than I am short irons.  I could move up a tee box, but I'm not ready to do that yet.  With longer clubs into greens, you will miss more greens or have longer putts.  

 

I don't reach par 5's in two shots anymore, but except for when the wind blows, my 3rd shot is usually a wedge.  On par 3's I tee the ball up no matter what club I use, so I always have the perfect lie for the shot into greens.  That's why I am worse on par 4's.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Par 5s. My reasoning is I'm over swinging thinking I'm going to reach the green in two but in reality usually hit worse shots than normal.

 

MDGolfHacker

I had that trouble last season. Now, no matter how much the 3 wood calls to me, I grab the 7 iron.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Driver -  :callaway-small: Big Bertha Alpha

3W -  :callaway-small: XHot Pro

3 Hybrid - :taylormade-small: Rescue 11

4-PW - Maltby DBM Forged

52 -  :vokey-small: SM4

56 -  :cleveland-small: RTX-3

60 - Scratch SS

Putter -  :seemore-small: FGP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am slightly worse on Par 3s.   According to the Grint stats for me,  I am .5 over on 5s,  .6 on 4s and ,8 on 3s.   For me it has to do with the extra distance coming into par 3s. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going through my Grint data (thanks to this forum for turning me on to it! I'm now a paying member) and my average score on par 4s is almost a full stroke more than my average on 3s and 5s. According to this I'd be a bogey golfer if it wasn't for par 4s.

Does anyone else struggle consistently depending on the par of the hole? What's your reasoning for it?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

We don't have enough info to analyze your exact problem, and I haven't played enough since my sabbatical to really know about myself, but since I'm generally making pars on 3's & 5's I would say yes, right now I'm worse on 4's.

 

On 3's you have a perfect lie (on a tee) and perfect place to take your stance. Unless you hit it into a hazard you generally have some green to work with, and it's a big target.

 

On 5's, even if you can't or don't reach in 2, you now have the same situation as around a par 3. Bigger greens etc. Just keep the tee shot in play, get it close to the green, and try to get up and down for a birdie or leave with a par.

 

On 4's the greens are generally smaller than the others. Also there maybe doglegs, forced carries, the odd tree that seems stupid to be all by itself yet a large portion of the golfers end up behind it. You are not guaranteed even a decent lie. And then the greens are smaller, and the sadist designers put bunkers and water all around it.

 

Par 4's are generally not “Grip it and Rip It” holes. They require well placed tee shots and good approach shots. I won't say use a 3 Wood because the driver is probably the most technologically advanced club in the bag. But think “Nice and easy down the middle”. Or wherever the tee shot needs to be. And play for par at least until your 3rd shot.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arccos tells me that I'm equally mediocre on all types of hole, but this doesn't surprise me too much. RoverRick is really onto it. Just to expand on his points:

 

Par 3s don't require a tee shot to put the ball into a perfect position. You start the hole from the middle of the fairway, and generally with an iron in your hand (if you're playing the right set of tees). I'm wild off the tee, so this is a huge advantage to me.

 

Par 5s, on the other hand, are incredibly forgiving. There's all kinds of ways to make a 5. You can scrape it around for 4 shots and make a longish putt. You can hit the green in two and 3-jack. You can hit your tee shot into the trees, punch out, get your third close to the green and save yourself with your short game. You can play a 500 yard par 5 by hitting your 165 yard club three times. Unless you're playing 600 yard par 5s, you can usually find a way to navigate them safely.

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
52* - :cleveland-small: CBX
58* - :cleveland-small: CBX Full Face 2
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Blue)
Ball -  :titleist-small: AVX
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going through my Grint data (thanks to this forum for turning me on to it! I'm now a paying member) and my average score on par 4s is almost a full stroke more than my average on 3s and 5s. According to this I'd be a bogey golfer if it wasn't for par 4s.

Does anyone else struggle consistently depending on the par of the hole? What's your reasoning for it?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

In the last 5 rounds I have played, my averages are:

 

Par 3's: 3.6

Par 4's: 5.5

Par 5's: 6.6

 

I believe this reinforces what I already know - I have been STRUGGLING off the tee with D/3W and irons have been pretty solid (complete opposite of last year, where irons sucked and long ball was good).

Driver:  :callaway-small:Epic Speed 9* (set -1) MMT 70X
3W:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR Recoil 760ES
3H, 4H: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 19*, 23* Recoil 780ES
4-AW:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR HF2 Modus3 Tour 105
SW: :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore Black Satin 54*
LW:Sub70: TAIII Black 58*
Putter:ping-small: Scottsdale TR Senita
Bag: BigMax Dri Active Lite
Ball:taylormade-small: TP5x or :titleist-small: AVX (yellow)
Pushcart: BigMax iQ+

Testing Complete, Final Review PostedSub70 TAIII Forged Wedges

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think RoverRick has an accurate description of the reason why Par 4's can be a trouble spot.

 

I think that knowing your game is really important and this step of analyzing your trouble area in scoring is going to help you attack that part of your game and make it a strength. Good on you for actually being willing to find out where you can improve with the help of data.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

In my :cobra-small: Ultralight Stand Bag:

Driver:    :callaway-small: Rogue 10.5° - LH -  Project X EvenFlow 60 Stiff
Woods:   :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 3/4 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
               :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5/6 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
Irons:      :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5-GW - KBS C-Taper Lite Stiff
Wedges: :cobra-small: King Black - LH - 52° 56° 60° - KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 Stiff
Putter:     :1332069271_TommyArmour: - Impact No. 3
Ball:        Maxfli TourX

Rangefinder: :skycaddie: LX5 Watch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are two ways to look at this - remember the object is to shoot the lowest number.

 

So you will average the least number of strokes on Par 3's, the next least on Par 4's and the most on Par 5's.

 

However if the concern is relative to par it will vary based on ability and then based on ability within ability.

 

Generally I agree with RR but most especially I agree that we don't have enough data to be more specific for the original poster.

 

The better the player the more likely it will be that he scores a bit worse on Par 4's than 3's and better than either on Par 5's.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Par 3's 3.4

Par 4's 4.3

Par 5's 4.9

 

This shows me exactly what has always been my problem. Consistently hitting irons. Good driver of the golf ball and great putter but struggle with my irons and always have. I would imagine that the majority of golfers score the best on par 5's relative to par because as hardcore said there are a bunch of ways to make par. For Seemore, there is not enough info to dig into however some of it could be as simple as course management. For example on my home course the 12th hole is a straight away par 4 of 316 yards with 2 bunkers left and 1 right. One of the guys i play with always hits hybrid off the tee bringing all 3 bunkers into play. I always tell him hit driver or 6 iron both options take the bunkers out of play and leave easy shots into the green. He is a 9 and hits it into the bunker about 25% of the time. Costs him strokes just due to poor shot selection. 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

:taylormade-small:     Spider GT Splitback 34"

 :titleist-small:           ProV1 #23

Twitter             @THEZIPR23

 

"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you need to see what holes exactly are causing you the issues. Is this just at your home course or is it at every course? Long par 4's I'm saying 425+ are not easy holes for a lot of golfers. And if there is trouble on them that increases how hard the hole plays. To improve try to eliminate one side of the hole and play smart. One good shot on a par 4 and you can make par.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Driver: Callaway Rogue 9*

FW: Sub 70 Pro 4 wood

Hybrid: Sub 70 949 Hybrid 19*

Irons:  Sub 70 

659 CB 4 - 6 Black

639 MB 7 - PW

Wedges: Sub 70

JB - 50* 54* & 60*

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #2
Ball: Titleist Pro-V1x
Handicap index:  +3.9

Instagram: joshandersongolf

Twitter: @jacustomgolf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not know if this stat is recorded, but my guess is that par 3 holes is where Tour players average their highest (relative to par) score.

Par 3's 2.98-3.29

Par 4's 3.9-4.25

Par 5's 4.41-4.88

 

According to PGAtour.com. Low end is 1st. High end is 208th. 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

:taylormade-small:     Spider GT Splitback 34"

 :titleist-small:           ProV1 #23

Twitter             @THEZIPR23

 

"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 And play for par at least until your 3rd shot.

 

 

I think this is it right there. Really think about where you need to hit it. For me that means I actually don't need to hit my driver that often on 4's because of all of the dog legs at some of the courses I play.

 

Don't try to win it on the par 4's. Especially if you are trying to get to bogey golf like you say, play all your 4's like 5's. That would take so much pressure off you that you might end up shooting a lot lower than you think

Bag: Bennington Quiet Organizer 9-Lite (link)

Cart: :Clicgear: 3.5+

Driver:  :cobra-small:  F9 speedback, Accra iWood

Woods:  Sonartec GS Tour 14*, Fujikura Six S
DI:  :titelist-small:  T-MB 2 iron, KBS Tour-V 120 X,
Irons: :Miura: PP-9003SN 4-GW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Wedges: :Miura: 1957 K-grind SW, LW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Putter: :odyssey-small: EXO Indianapolis (link)
Ball: :Snell: MTB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is it right there. Really think about where you need to hit it. For me that means I actually don't need to hit my driver that often on 4's because of all of the dog legs at some of the courses I play.

 

Don't try to win it on the par 4's. Especially if you are trying to get to bogey golf like you say, play all your 4's like 5's. That would take so much pressure off you that you might end up shooting a lot lower than you think

This.

 

One of the concepts we teach kids at The First Tee is Personal Par, and frankly quite a few adults would benefit from it as well.

 

There's a par 3 on a course I play frequently that I play for bogey. It's a par 3, long but not overly so (185), but the green is narrow, with hills on the left that kick the ball into nearby trees. The left side of the hills are bare (it's not the greatest conditioned course), so all I need to do is overcook my tee shot a bit and I'm in jail. I'm punching out of trees into thick green side rough and trying to get up and down for bogey.

 

There's no trouble in front of the green, so I play much better coming up a little short of the green and chipping. It's sad to play so defensively, but statistically I play the hole much better laying up, and I'm sick of making doubles on that hole.

 

As Rev points out, we're there to shoot the best number we can. No points for style.

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
52* - :cleveland-small: CBX
58* - :cleveland-small: CBX Full Face 2
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Blue)
Ball -  :titleist-small: AVX
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not enough to know that par 4's give you trouble. You need to know what holes give you trouble and why.

 

In 2014 when I was playing to a low single digit handicap, I entered 14 score cards into a spreadsheet and then read what I did on each hole the last 14 times. I saw that par 3's and 5's I was basically even par. + 0.27 on the 3's and - 0.32 on the 5's.

 

So when I looked at the par 4's individually, I found that on 6 of those I was averaging less than +0.2 strokes over par but 4 holes (2, 7, 12, and 18) I was averaging almost a full stroke over par. I then asked myself why I was killing my scores on these holes. The answer turned out to be I was hitting my tee shot into trouble and having to take a drop or punch out sideways to recover, and having to scramble to make bogie. At that point I approached the holes differently.and instead of trying to reach the green in 2, I wanted to be near the green and have the best angle to wedge it close to the hole for a short par putt.

 

It's one thing to say that you are averaging +0.73 on the par 4's but when you find out that on 4 holes you are are actually almost a full stroke and 6 holes you are less than a quarter stroke you see it's poor course management.

 

You may find all par 4's are bad because you hit into trouble off the tee. Or can't reach in 2. They have different tees to solve this last issue and practice areas for the first issue. But it will tell you where to spend the time.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry I do not comprehend your post, including "low end is 1st, high end is 208th".

In other words, from the numbers-scoring ranges you posted, on Tour, which holes are considered the hardest (or highest over par average), the par 3's, par 4's, or par 5's ?

Sorry for the confusion 

 

best player on par 3's is at 2.98 the worst is 3.29. I couldn't find total averages just individual player averages. Par 3's are hardest on tour. 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

:taylormade-small:     Spider GT Splitback 34"

 :titleist-small:           ProV1 #23

Twitter             @THEZIPR23

 

"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's no trouble in front of the green, so I play much better coming up a little short of the green and chipping. It's sad to play so defensively, but statistically I play the hole much better laying up, and I'm sick of making doubles on that hole.

 

Course management. I have started taking 3 wood on a par 5 at one the courses I play because there is a lot of trouble/risk where my drive would land, and the second shot into the well-protected green is no picnic either. Took me a while to realize if I just laid back with a 3wood in the fat part of the fairway, I could play it as a 3 shot par 5 with a good chance at a birdie putt instead of risking a penalty stroke while trying to be a hero.

 

Humility gents. I has it.

Bag: Bennington Quiet Organizer 9-Lite (link)

Cart: :Clicgear: 3.5+

Driver:  :cobra-small:  F9 speedback, Accra iWood

Woods:  Sonartec GS Tour 14*, Fujikura Six S
DI:  :titelist-small:  T-MB 2 iron, KBS Tour-V 120 X,
Irons: :Miura: PP-9003SN 4-GW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Wedges: :Miura: 1957 K-grind SW, LW, Nippon 1150GH Stiff
Putter: :odyssey-small: EXO Indianapolis (link)
Ball: :Snell: MTB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks  :)

So, I got to thinking about Pebble Beach, where I have gone to several times to be a spectator at the Crosby/AT&T  annual Tour stop.

At Pebble the par 3's are as follows:

 

5th hole is relatively new, designed by Jack Nicklaus and installed to the course about 20 years ago. For the playing professionals it is about a 165 yard shot to a deep but very narrow shaped, green, guarded by bunkers to the left and a bunker, and ocean cliffs to the right.

 

7th hole is the iconic 120 yard down hill shot to a tiny, well bunker'd green with water left and long. If it is played in high wind conditions club selection can be a mystery.

 

12th hole is about 215 to a slightly elevated green.

 

17, like the 7th, is a Pebble signature hole, usually playing about 180 to a very shallow, but wide, well bunker'd green.

 

So, four very different par 3's which I expect any Tour pro would readily accept par and move on to the rest of the course.

 

One casualty of the trend of the past 20 years to build longer, plus 7000 yard length courses, is the loss of the classic "short yardage tiny green par 3", which (on older courses)  was commonly found at least once. For example, here in SF one of the Olympic Club's signature holes was the 145 yard par three  8th hole, featuring a small green completely surrounded by bunkers. 20 years ago, thinking they needed to lengthen the course to be sure the USGA continued to include Olympic in the US Open rotation, the club members hired an architect to add about 300 yards to the course. Sadly, the old 145 yard par 3 eighth hole was changed, and is now a 235 yarder with an enormous green.

This X 100. Especially last paragraph. It is probably for a different thread but I believe architecture can combat the so called distance gains and extending courses is not the answer. 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

:taylormade-small:     Spider GT Splitback 34"

 :titleist-small:           ProV1 #23

Twitter             @THEZIPR23

 

"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not enough to know that par 4's give you trouble. You need to know what holes give you trouble and why.

 

In 2014 when I was playing to a low single digit handicap, I entered 14 score cards into a spreadsheet and then read what I did on each hole the last 14 times. I saw that par 3's and 5's I was basically even par. + 0.27 on the 3's and - 0.32 on the 5's.

 

So when I looked at the par 4's individually, I found that on 6 of those I was averaging less than +0.2 strokes over par but 4 holes (2, 7, 12, and 18) I was averaging almost a full stroke over par. I then asked myself why I was killing my scores on these holes. The answer turned out to be I was hitting my tee shot into trouble and having to take a drop or punch out sideways to recover, and having to scramble to make bogie. At that point I approached the holes differently.and instead of trying to reach the green in 2, I wanted to be near the green and have the best angle to wedge it close to the hole for a short par putt.

 

It's one thing to say that you are averaging +0.73 on the par 4's but when you find out that on 4 holes you are are actually almost a full stroke and 6 holes you are less than a quarter stroke you see it's poor course management.

 

You may find all par 4's are bad because you hit into trouble off the tee. Or can't reach in 2. They have different tees to solve this last issue and practice areas for the first issue. But it will tell you where to spend the time.

I really like hearing this story and the detail that you went to in digging into your data to find the little inches you need to make a difference in your score. Thank you for the example of how to look at and use stats.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

In my :cobra-small: Ultralight Stand Bag:

Driver:    :callaway-small: Rogue 10.5° - LH -  Project X EvenFlow 60 Stiff
Woods:   :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 3/4 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
               :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5/6 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
Irons:      :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5-GW - KBS C-Taper Lite Stiff
Wedges: :cobra-small: King Black - LH - 52° 56° 60° - KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 Stiff
Putter:     :1332069271_TommyArmour: - Impact No. 3
Ball:        Maxfli TourX

Rangefinder: :skycaddie: LX5 Watch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you able to break out what is giving you the most trouble shot by shot?

 

Traditionally speaking par 4s are designed to be the technical holes. They challenge the tee ball, approach shot or both. Where as pars 3s are supposed to challenge your approach and par 5s challenge your length.

 

Some of that has changed so I don't want to use it as a tell all, but I am curious if you would be able to narrow it down to a type of par 4 that is causing you the most trouble.

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you able to break out what is giving you the most trouble shot by shot?

 

Traditionally speaking par 4s are designed to be the technical holes. They challenge the tee ball, approach shot or both. Where as pars 3s are supposed to challenge your approach and par 5s challenge your length.

 

Some of that has changed so I don't want to use it as a tell all, but I am curious if you would be able to narrow it down to a type of par 4 that is causing you the most trouble.

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

For me on these holes it was all about course management. Hitting a wild driver when I should have been getting it in the fairway.

 

All 4 of these holes have trouble on both sides, either OB, water, or woods.

 

Because of the length of 2 of them, or my lack of length, I need to hit driver. BUT, I do not need to hit a career length driver. Just a nice drive into the fairway and move on. If I don't hit into the proper position, I need to lay up to my 3/4 wedge distance which is (was) one of my strengths.

 

The other 2 I simply need to consign myself to a longer approach shot and hit a hybrid into the fairway.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not enough to know that par 4's give you trouble. You need to know what holes give you trouble and why.

 

In 2014 when I was playing to a low single digit handicap, I entered 14 score cards into a spreadsheet and then read what I did on each hole the last 14 times. I saw that par 3's and 5's I was basically even par. + 0.27 on the 3's and - 0.32 on the 5's.

 

So when I looked at the par 4's individually, I found that on 6 of those I was averaging less than +0.2 strokes over par but 4 holes (2, 7, 12, and 18) I was averaging almost a full stroke over par. I then asked myself why I was killing my scores on these holes. The answer turned out to be I was hitting my tee shot into trouble and having to take a drop or punch out sideways to recover, and having to scramble to make bogie. At that point I approached the holes differently.and instead of trying to reach the green in 2, I wanted to be near the green and have the best angle to wedge it close to the hole for a short par putt.

 

It's one thing to say that you are averaging +0.73 on the par 4's but when you find out that on 4 holes you are are actually almost a full stroke and 6 holes you are less than a quarter stroke you see it's poor course management.

 

You may find all par 4's are bad because you hit into trouble off the tee. Or can't reach in 2. They have different tees to solve this last issue and practice areas for the first issue. But it will tell you where to spend the time.

That's great advice. I'll start keeping more stats this weekend. I know I didn't provide enough data with my orginal question, but that's because I don't have the data in the first place. Thanks to everyone here I at least know where and how to start.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Driver -  :callaway-small: Big Bertha Alpha

3W -  :callaway-small: XHot Pro

3 Hybrid - :taylormade-small: Rescue 11

4-PW - Maltby DBM Forged

52 -  :vokey-small: SM4

56 -  :cleveland-small: RTX-3

60 - Scratch SS

Putter -  :seemore-small: FGP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks :)

So, I got to thinking about Pebble Beach, where I have gone to several times to be a spectator at the Crosby/AT&T annual Tour stop.

At Pebble the par 3's are as follows:

 

5th hole is relatively new, designed by Jack Nicklaus and installed to the course about 20 years ago. For the playing professionals it is about a 165 yard shot to a deep but very narrow shaped, green, guarded by bunkers to the left and a bunker, and ocean cliffs to the right.

 

7th hole is the iconic 120 yard down hill shot to a tiny, well bunker'd green with water left and long. If it is played in high wind conditions club selection can be a mystery.

 

12th hole is about 215 to a slightly elevated green.

 

17, like the 7th, is a Pebble signature hole, usually playing about 180 to a very shallow, but wide, well bunker'd green.

 

So, four very different par 3's which I expect any Tour pro would readily accept par and move on to the rest of the course.

 

One casualty of the trend of the past 20 years to build longer, plus 7000 yard length courses, is the loss of the classic "short yardage tiny green par 3", which (on older courses) was commonly found at least once. For example, here in SF one of the Olympic Club's signature holes was the 145 yard par three 8th hole, featuring a small green completely surrounded by bunkers. 20 years ago, thinking they needed to lengthen the course to be sure the USGA continued to include Olympic in the US Open rotation, the club members hired an architect to add about 300 yards to the course. Sadly, the old 145 yard par 3 eighth hole was changed, and is now a 235 yarder with an enormous green.

That does make me sad - a classic hole destroyed. I find it fascinating that Shinnecock has added very little yardage over the years and remains a stern test. It has a short, uphill par 3, mid 150's where you can't see the bottom of the flag from the tee.

 

Sometimes longer new courses offer benefits though. Whistling Straits is not designed to play at 7,700 yards. It has that yardage to create different angles and types of holes on each day of the tournament. Instead of 18 hopes you are effectively playing 23 or 24 different ones. One of the par 3's will play 200 one day and 120 another day.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not "sad to play defensively" , it is smart golf.

For more skilled players especially, I think par 3 holes are often  the ones where  double bogey happens.

Smart golf can be frustrating golf. I'm on the other end of all that advice I used to give when I caddied in high school and college. Now I know how my loops used to feel.

 

I do not recall the course name or hole number, whether it was Byron Nelson or Ben Hogan, or even some other noteworthy player from that era, who played to intentionally miss the green on a particular par 3 hole.

Billy Casper was famous for laying up on par 3s. He's probably most famous for laying up on the third at Winged Foot, when he won the US Open there.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/12/sports/golf/12casper.html

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
52* - :cleveland-small: CBX
58* - :cleveland-small: CBX Full Face 2
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Blue)
Ball -  :titleist-small: AVX
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...