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How much is enough?


revkev

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Okay - the numbers are out there and they punch holes in lots of old myths.

 

Length is king on the PGA tour beyond a doubt. But that's not the purpose here. The question is how much is enough distance to be a scratch golfer or to move to the next level where ever you're at.

 

As a reminder the average driving distance on tour is 290.

 

For scratch 255

 

For a 10 235

 

The average golfer around 210 (less depending upon what Study you read)

 

This isn't about your longest drive - it's about an honest assessment of how far you hit the ball on the golf course - consistently.

 

I think a great starting place is the LPGA. The courses that they play range between 6,300 and 6,700 yards. Their average drive is 245. All of them would play to plus handicaps or better than scratch even though they are shorter on average than the average scratch male. So clearly there is a way to make a golf score beyond hitting it a mile for everyone but the very top male golfers.

 

My question is - how much is enough. For me I think it's 235 at Sea Level - I can handle a 6500 yard course - what the FGA recommends for an expert golfer of my age - if I'm averaging that distance.

 

Currently I'm not so it's a goal to get back there.

 

 

 

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I would have to agree with you that the LPGA is a great place to start. I have heard numerous fitters say to good amateurs not to look at what top PGA Players have for a bag setup but LPGA. I think the same can be said for golf course length

In my bag:

Driver: :callaway-logo-1: Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS 10.5* (set to 9.5) UST Lin-Q Gunmetal 6f5

Wood: :titleist-small: Tsi2 15* Project X RDX Black 70 6.5

Hybrids: :cobra-small: King Utility 19.5* Diamana Tensei White Pro 90TX

Irons: :cobra-small: Cobra King Tour MIM 4-PW Dynamic Gold 120 X100

Wedges: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 3 50*, 54*, 58* Tour Issue S400

Putter: :seemore-small: Nashville Z1C 34"

 Ball: :titleist-small:  Pro V1x

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I hit about 250 on average. I usually play 6500 yard courses and a 250-260 yard drive allows me to hit wedge into a lot of the greens. I definitely feel that I could get to scratch with where I'm at regarding driving distance. But there is this little guy on my golf team. He carrys it about 180 and is a 2 handicap. So distance isn't really holding too many people back. The short game and the touch is really what separates pros from ams, IMO.

 

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With my new driver, I think I'm in the range of 210-225 with an occasional blast out to maybe 240 with roll-out. But we're up here at 2,800-ft, so take that as you may. If I could learn to be better at my FW & iron play I can maybe stop squandering all these new "good" drives and start lowering my HC. I'm playing courses that average between 5,900 & 6,400 and I believe that I am at the proper yardage for my evolving skill set.

In my       :ping-small: DLX Cart Bag:
Driver
:    :ping-small: G410 SFT, set to 9.5*, Mitsubishi Tensei CK Orange 60, stiff (MGS Official 2019 Tester)
3W:          :ping-small: G-Series SF TEC, set to 16*, Aldila Tour Blue ATX, 65g, stiff
5W:          :ping-small: G400 SFT, set to 19*, Aldila Tour Blue ATX, 65g, stiff
7W:         :ping-small: G410 SFT, set to 22*. Alta CB 65 Red, stiff

Irons:       :ping-small: GMax, Green Dot, 5-PW, Project X Graphite Blue 6.0, 80-90g , stiff
Wedges: :ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth, 50* SS, 54* ES & 60*/8 Forged MGS Special from the Wedge Wizard, Green Dot, Alta CB graphite, 84g, stiff
Putter:     :ping-small: Vault 2.0 B60 Copper, 33", black dot w/GP SNSR grip (PING Sigma 2 Fetch under "see-trials")
Ball:       :Snell: MTB BLACK (MGS Official 2018 Tester for the :Snell: MTB RED)
Shoes:     :footjoy-small:  Classics Tour w/Black Widow Softspikes

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According to trackman my avg driver carry distance is 255. I play between 6100ish and 6700ish. At those lengths I think 230 is enough to play them and score well.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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The long ball can be my friend or my enemy. I think you said it best revkev, Consistently. That's the key word for me. A good day driving the ball can change a lot. I average 280 yards with my driver, when its going straight it is fantastic! But there are those days or holes where I just loose it. 280 yards and on the wrong fairway doesn't help scoring one bit. I found recently on my local courses I score better if I just leave the driver in the bag. I can hit my 3-wood 250 consistently and consistently STRAIGHT. I'd rather loose the yardage and gain the accuracy. 

Callaway Rouge SZ 9 Driver

Rogue 3 wood - Aldila Synergy 

Rogue SZ 5 wood- Project X Even Flow Blue

Sub 70 699 U 22*

Taylor Made M4 5-AW - KBS Max 

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I'm trying to think of the shortest hitting scratch player that I know..

I think 220 would probably be the limit, but it would require someone to be extremely good at all parts of their game.

There are 2 60+ year old guys that I play with who have both competed at a very high level in both college and amateur events. Neither hit it over 250 and probably only carry their driver in the 200-230 range. Both of them are scratch but it's because they are skilled at every facet of the game except length.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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I also think a lot of people get caught up in just driver distance, DJ, Day, Rory and etc aren't just driver long. They hit everything long which is a huge part of making the game easier for them. If you could be 190 or 200 our but if you're hitting a 6 or 7 iron id wager you're gonna still score well

Driver:   :callaway-small: Epic 10.5 set to 9.5 w/ Tour AD-DI 44.5

FW:   :cobra-small: F6 baffler set at 16º

Hybrid:  NONE
Irons:   :taylormade-small:  3i 2014 TP CB  4-PW 2011 TP MC w/ TT S400

Wedges:   :nike-small: 52º :nike-small: 56º  :edel-golf-1: 60 º w/ KBS C-Taper XS Soft-stepped

Putter:   :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne 34 inches Gold dot

 

 

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I hit the ball plenty long enough to be scratch; 250+. But I don't think distance is that relevant to handicap.

 

I think there's more that has to be considered. Yes, on tours the longest hitters have better results. That isn't related to handicap though, it is related to what clubs they are generally hitting into greens. The shorter the club the better chance you have to hit it close and get birdie.

 

Having seen 220 yard LPGA pros shoot under par scores I think distance has little to do with handicap, especially since there are multiple tee boxes that a player can decide to play from.

 

When it comes to handicap I personally think ball striking and short game become bigger factors. If par 4s are in the 380 range a 200 yard drive, second to close range, then getting up and down for par will make you close to scratch.

 

So for winning golf tournaments the longer the better. For handicap I think 200 would get you pretty close on a 6500 yard course.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

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If you are asking for the minimum I think it would be the 240-250 range with a very high percentage of fairways hit.  Any shorter and the player needs to either be really good between 150 and 210 and/or have a really good short game.   For my game there is a big drop off in GIRs outside of 150 yards so getting off the tee is very important.  Arccos show my average drive is right at 250 and play 6,200 and 6,400 yard courses.  

Driver - Ping G410 Plus 10.5 - Ping Tour 65 Stiff

4 Wood - Callaway Rogue - Project X Evenflow blue 6.0

Hybrids - Titleist 818 H2 -  3(c-1) and 4(c-4) - Tensei CK Blue 70 stiff

Irons - Callaway Apex  CF 16 5-AW - True Temper XP 95 Steel Stiff

Wedges - Ping Glide 54 SS, 58 TS

Putter - Edel e1 Torque balanced

Indianapolis

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I'm trying to think of the shortest hitting scratch player that I know..

 

I think 220 would probably be the limit, but it would require someone to be extremely good at all parts of their game.

 

There are 2 60+ year old guys that I play with who have both competed at a very high level in both college and amateur events. Neither hit it over 250 and probably only carry their driver in the 200-230 range. Both of them are scratch but it's because they are skilled at every facet of the game except length.

This is really the question that I was asked by. Thanks RP58 for supplying the chart that I was quoting bag from as well.

 

So not surprising nearly every respondent hits it above average for his skill level and age. Every male golfer on every golf forum does that.

 

The question is how far do you have to hit it to be a scratch golfer. I would think 225/220 as a bare minimum but there would be very little margin for error there. That's why I'm going with 230.

 

For those who hit it last beer than that either you don't or you are deficient in other areas of your game. I'd find those areas and work on them.

 

Since I don't I've pick that one - increasing distance - while working on my short game - I think that's my best path back to 0.

 

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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As a data guy I would like to see the breakdown of the numbers. For instance, is the 290 drive average just driver? Most pros aren't using their driver every hole. Is it carry? Rollout? I don't see the 235 day in and day out. I know my distances and the groups I play in and that number is low. Length, while useful is such a small piece. DJ proved that this weekend. To become scratch you need to putt, chip, pitch, and put the ball in play. Length gives an advantage, but is useless if you aren't proficient in the other aspects of the game

 

And as a caveat, I don't know too many scratch golfers. The ones I do aren't particularly the longest out there. They are magic around the greens. Make putts, hit their irons on target, etc.

 

 

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To answer the question, Rev I say 230-235 is bare minimum the driver carry you need to start being scratch. To clarify, I mean hitting it 235 consistently, not at the peak possibility, with control.

 

I am able to hit 250 yd drives in the fairway. My talent says that I cannot do that on command round after round, so it compounds my problems of not being close to scratch. Just because I have done it once/twice per round, doesn't mean that 250 is my driving distance. Driving the ball long, with control is critical. You need both components of length and accuracy to tackle getting to scratch.

 

A consistent, repeatable, controllable distance (you know where the ball is going) is what will get you started getting to scratch.

 

 

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In my :cobra-small: Ultralight Stand Bag:

Driver:    :callaway-small: Rogue 10.5° - LH -  Project X EvenFlow 60 Stiff
Woods:   :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 3/4 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
               :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5/6 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
Irons:      :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5-GW - KBS C-Taper Lite Stiff
Wedges: :cobra-small: King Black - LH - 52° 56° 60° - KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 Stiff
Putter:     :1332069271_TommyArmour: - Impact No. 3
Ball:        Maxfli TourX

Rangefinder: :skycaddie: LX5 Watch

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As a data guy I would like to see the breakdown of the numbers. For instance, is the 290 drive average just driver? Most pros aren't using their driver every hole. Is it carry? Rollout? I don't see the 235 day in and day out. I know my distances and the groups I play in and that number is low. Length, while useful is such a small piece. DJ proved that this weekend. To become scratch you need to putt, chip, pitch, and put the ball in play. Length gives an advantage, but is useless if you aren't proficient in the other aspects of the game

 

And as a caveat, I don't know too many scratch golfers. The ones I do aren't particularly the longest out there. They are magic around the greens. Make putts, hit their irons on target, etc.

 

 

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I respect you guys and love you guys but driving distance is in fact the quickest way to separate golfers. You see the chart - you know that on tour while distance is not an absolutely predict of success it is far more significant than putting it short game proficiency.

 

So if you have the distance what's holding you back?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I respect you guys and love you guys but driving distance is in fact the quickest way to separate golfers. You see the chart - you know that on tour while distance is not an absolutely predict of success it is far more significant than putting it short game proficiency.

 

So if you have the distance what's holding you back?

 

 

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Rev, love you too man, but that is just an excel chart with no meat behind it. I wouldn't trust those numbers until I see how they are computed.

 

I disagree completely that driver distance is the statistic that separates elite golfers. I can unequivocally show my numbers because I have a year of data via Arccos that shows hundreds of shots, averages, misses etc. I am a high single digit handicap, but based on that chart am “elite”.

 

You asked what's holding me back, I would say time. I can't practice as much as I would like. So what if I hit my driver 275 on average. If I make bogey it doesn't matter. Even at my best, I was a 5, and I was longer in my 30s, than I am now.

 

 

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I respect you guys and love you guys but driving distance is in fact the quickest way to separate golfers. You see the chart - you know that on tour while distance is not an absolutely predict of success it is far more significant than putting it short game proficiency.

 

So if you have the distance what's holding you back?

 

 

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I agree with you on that distance is a separator, but having distance doesn't guarantee you will be scratch. Nor will great putting and short game.

 

There is a combination of things. Long off the tee means you can be less than optimal in other areas. Short off the tee means you better be a good ball striker and have a solid short game.

 

Now let's throw in focus and course management. These also play into getting to scratch.

 

Since I have the distance, the things that are holding me back:

Ball striking into greens

Not getting up and down when I miss greens

Lag putting.

Lack of practice

Lack of focus for all 18 holes.

 

give me another 20 yards and I probably still have the same problems and won't be scratch

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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From the distances I play from (6300-6500) my driver average of 248 total yards could get me to scratch. Like everyone else at times I hit it a little further. Seldom much less unless it's a skank. My driver accuracy is pretty good most days as I play from the fairway or just off on most drives. My distance would be much less and is when I travel out of my region. My course as are most in the area play hard and fast. And, at 2800' elevation that helps too. I will not get to scratch because I'm not really driven to put in the effort. So I just complain about my approach accuracy and proximity to the pin. As we all know....some days are better then others. 

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

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I'm currently a mid-teens index, and would say I average 250 off the tee. I have been terrible inside 100 yards.

I took a set of lessons during the off season, and the instructor told me I should spend 90% of my range time on wedge practice. Jump ahead to the end of May and my short game is still a horror show. I took a one hour wedge lesson from one of our pros, and I cannot tell you how it has changed my game and scoring.

Anyway, distance may be the best predictor of success. If so, now with a clue and a plan in my short game, I expect my HC to improve rapidly (I should be down 1-2 strokes byJuly 1).

<p>In my bag: Ping G LS Tec 9* Tour 65 Stiff, Cobra F8 3-4 wood HZRDUS Yellow 6.0, Calloway 21* X Forged Utility iron (steel stiff), Ping G30 white dot 4-9 Stiff 110 gm KBS tours  Scor 48,52,56,60 Wedges, Nike Method Core MC3</p><p>

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I average 275-285 off the Tee. I'm not close to scratch. So many other things involved for me to get to that level. Like stop making stupid choices, and play the course. I attack every flagstick, and go for the green in 2 when I feel “just close enough”.

 

If I eliminate the dumb things and could practice every day for 5-6 hours, sure I'd be great at golf. But I still have 9-19 years left of my career before the real fun begins.

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I hit the ball plenty long enough to be scratch; 250+. But I don't think distance is that relevant to handicap.

 

I think there's more that has to be considered. Yes, on tours the longest hitters have better results. That isn't related to handicap though, it is related to what clubs they are generally hitting into greens. The shorter the club the better chance you have to hit it close and get birdie.

 

Having seen 220 yard LPGA pros shoot under par scores I think distance has little to do with handicap, especially since there are multiple tee boxes that a player can decide to play from.

 

When it comes to handicap I personally think ball striking and short game become bigger factors. If par 4s are in the 380 range a 200 yard drive, second to close range, then getting up and down for par will make you close to scratch.

 

So for winning golf tournaments the longer the better. For handicap I think 200 would get you pretty close on a 6500 yard course.

I agree with this. I think the distance stuff is overblown. Especially for amateurs when you can essentially choose the tees you want to play
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I'm at 260 give or take and while I'd always take more yardage I can manage my way around most setups decent enough with my current length and a good day on the greens. I'm fairly straight with my driver and work hard on my wedge game though so that helps to offset any issues I could experience at my current length.

 

 

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Right Handed

4.5 handicap

Driver: Nike Vapor Flex with Mitsubishi Rayon Fubuki ZT60x5ct S-flex shaft and stock grip.

3-Metal: Nike VRS 15 degree with Mitsubishi Rayon tour issue Diamana S73x5ct X-flex shaft and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grip.

Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 22, 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46 degrees standard length and lie with KBS Tour-V stiff shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

Wedges: Ben Hogan TK15 54, 58 degrees with KBS Tour-V X-flex shafts and GolfPride MCC midsize Black/White grips.

Putter: Nike Method Converge B1|01 with Superstroke Flatso 2.0 grip.

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Like fastball velocity distance in golf matters - you need it - not everyone that hits it a mile is on tour but the guys that are do and of those guys you need to be top third to win consistently -

 

It is also the single greatest separated between handicap cut offs - it just is.

 

But that's them - for us there is no doubt that we can mess 275 down the middle up with the best of them. :)

 

I would suggest that if you have distance and you take penalty strokes off the tee it's time to hit less on holes where that's a factor. For me it means hitting a lot of drivers even when others don't because I hit mine very straight. That's one of the ways I offset my lack of distance. That and I'm very good with my wedges and Im a reasonably good putter.

 

When I was a 1-2 I hit it about 20 yards farther and made solid contact with my other clubs more consistently than i do now.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Everyone has stories about short hitting low markers, or long hitting high markers, but I agree that length is the key to scoring consistently low. Most short and low guys hit it significantly straighter than average, and their course management is always great. The opposite applies to the really long high markers.

 

Every plus marker I've played with has been seriously long. People seem to forget that the really long hitters aren't just long with their driver, every club is longer.  When I play with these long guys, I'm hitting four or five clubs longer in to par 4's, and I'm not necessarily short.

 

I've watched several juniors come through my club, and no matter how clean their ball striking and good their short games, their handicaps didn't drop low until they grew enough to get some good distance.

 

Long and not too far off line is the key. A few percent off from 100 yards is much closer than a few percent off from 170.

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So how long is long enough? With proper course management, On my course for me, 230 leaves me with a 4 hybrid on 2 holes and 7 iron or less on the rest.

 

My course is not a long course. But it requires specific driving distances and accuracy off the tee. 

 

We have 2, soon to be 3, holes where 240ish gets you in the water. Also, there are a couple of more where you need to clear water 200 yards to reach the fairway. And another that requires 225 to reach the bend in the dogleg and 260 will be OB.

 

Because of these specific requirements, I have developed my bag accordingly. 

 

My driver 250 average total yards. This does not count the Par 5 with the wind at my back and 240 yard carry will give me another 40-60 yards roll.

 

I sometimes, but not as often now, carry my Midi-Driver. A Taylormade R9 Super Deep set to 12* on a 3 wood shaft. I regularly hit this about 235 total distance.

 

I recently reshafted my 3 wood PXv driver weight shaft cut to 3 wood length and am getting similar results with that off the tee, not sure about off the deck because if I'm that far from the green I need to lay up in the fairway and rely on my short game to get it up and down.

 

I also have finally cobbled together a long SLDR 3 hybrid and an ADDI shaft that will get me about 220 off the tee, and a bit shorter off the deck. I'm gaining confidence off the deck with this hitting it high and straight.

 

My next club is a SLDR 4 hybrid on a PXv hybrid shaft I can hit right at 200 or throttle back to 185 fairly easily. This is generally my go to club for the second shot on par 5's. Easy to hit off the deck and straight.

 

From there I go to irons and don't try to hit my 5 iron more than 180. I try to swing about 80% max on my irons, or I tend to pull them left. Irons are about distance and direction control, not length.

 

I mentioned a soon-to-be 3rd hole. This was an easy, short 490 yard Par 5 that was a birdie or better hole for most. Now, they are lengthening to 600+ yards BUT are adding a water hazard all the way across the fairway. So water long and right, OB left, with a slight dogleg right. So you will have to either hit it 240 or 290. That's 290 in the fairway or you end up in the trees, and if you go right of the trees you will be in even more water. This will be an exciting hole because it will require a lay up for the long hitters on the tee shot. The second shot needs to be at least 180 yards high over wooded area and then still requires a 100 yard shot into the green.  Or if you can't cut the trees you will have to go down the fairway and have a longer shot into the green.

 

Now, I said 230 is long enough to score well, but we still have 2 par 5's and a couple of par 4's that you really need to hit it longer to have a better chance of scoring. And who wouldn't rather be hitting an 8 iron instead of a 6 iron.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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6500 yards over 18 holes is an average par 4 hole that's 362 yards long. 235 off the tee means 127 to the green. Let's say that your 235 hitter hits an 8 iron 130. So the average hole for this 235 hitter is driver/8 iron. I can believe that someone who's average par 4 is driver/8 iron could be scratch.

 

Average round - 2 over par

12 greens hit - make par

4 up-and-downs - make par

2 greens missed - make bogey

 

This player hits it on the button far more frequently than even an 8 handicap player. They also don't waste shots. But this scenario isn't all that far-fetched. Honestly, this is really a weaker version of the average LPGA player, who hits even more solid shots than our hypothetical scratch player.

 

So what about my game? Well, according to Arccos I hit it longer than that:

 

Screen Shot 2018-06-20 at 12.12.33 AM.png

 

So why am I an 8? Well, I'm not very straight, so I penalize myself.

 

Screen Shot 2018-06-20 at 12.15.18 AM.png

 

And my iron game is not all that good either.

 

Screen Shot 2018-06-20 at 12.16.43 AM.png

 

I'm changing my approach to tee shots and laying off the driver (and sometimes, the three wood) to keep myself inbounds and out of trees. I'm also working on my iron game to at least get it to passable.

 

Playing that hypothetical 6500 yard course, I should be able to easily reach any hole in regulation. So it's hitting at least one tee shot out of play each round, then hitting four or more atrocious approach shots that turn most every round into a fight to break 80. A fight I've lost more than I've won this year.

 

By the way, I'm also working on the driver configuration. If I can't set it up to hit it farther than the three wood, then I need to take it out of my bag.

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (13.5*) - :titleist-small: 980F 
4 Wood (18*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
52* - :cleveland-small: CBX
58* - :cleveland-small: CBX Full Face 2
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Blue)
Ball -  :titleist-small: AVX
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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@djahubes @jlukes @cnosil  Rev can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that he is saying that you can hit the ball a long way and not have a proficient short game, putter, approach game. He is merely saying that the easiest way to identify a difference in handicap is by how far players hit the ball. If your average 5 handicap who hit it 230 suddenly wakes up and gains 30 yards, don't you think he will improve multiple shots as soon as he learns his new distances?

 

I pose a question to each of you. How many of you have played with a scratch or better than scratch player and thought, "he hits the ball really short''? Because I know very few scratch players that hit the ball under 250. Most of them are close to 270 or more. Especially when you start talking about guys who are well into the + range. 

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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I think Rev's real question and point of the thread isn't that scratch players are longer on average that non scratch players. I think we can agree that is the case on average. 
 

It's really how short can you hit and still manage to be scratch?

To me it is a course to course basis. If you can make a course short enough but still manage to keep the course rating and slope high enough then I think maybe 210 or so would max it out. But this player would would have to be an excellent hybrid and fairway wood player though. And have the short game and putter to match. If you could manage to find a 5700-6k yard course that still manages a 72 rating and 130ish slope then I think he has an excellent shot if the rest of his game is very good.

 

Most of the scratch type players that I know who hit the ball short are guys that once hit it longer than they currently do. They used to be plus handicaps but their swing speed has declined over the years and they have had to adapt by becoming even better with their short game and putter. I'd guess that they are still long for their age bracket but short for their handicap range. 

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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@djahubes @jlukes @cnosil Rev can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that he is saying that you can hit the ball a long way and not have a proficient short game, putter, approach game. He is merely saying that the easiest way to identify a difference in handicap is by how far players hit the ball. If your average 5 handicap who hit it 230 suddenly wakes up and gains 30 yards, don't you think he will improve multiple shots as soon as he learns his new distances?

 

I pose a question to each of you. How many of you have played with a scratch or better than scratch player and thought, "he hits the ball really short''? Because I know very few scratch players that hit the ball under 250. Most of them are close to 270 or more. Especially when you start talking about guys who are well into the + range.

You are correct, distance will help a person play better because it is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from shorter distances. I have played with scratch golfers and on a few occasions I was longer than they were. They separated from me based on approaches and short game. I have volunteered at LPGA events and walked inside the ropes with players for 10 years and have thought that they are really short off the tee.

 

The question in the original post was how short can you be to get to scratch not who has the best chance. A player that is long and straight off the tee has a better chance that someone that is short off the tee. But a player that plays from the correct tees and is a solid ball striker can achieve scratch without being long off the tee.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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You are correct, distance will help a person play better because it is easier to hit the ball closer to the hole from shorter distances. I have played with scratch golfers and on a few occasions I was longer than they were. They separated from me based on approaches and short game. I have volunteered at LPGA events and walked inside the ropes with players for 10 years and have thought that they are really short off the tee.

 

The question in the original post was how short can you be to get to scratch not who has the best chance. A player that is long and straight off the tee has a better chance that someone that is short off the tee. But a player that plays from the correct tees and is a solid ball striker can achieve scratch without being long off the tee.

I agree. Read the post above yours  :rolleyes:

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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I think Rev's real question and point of the thread isn't that scratch players are longer on average that non scratch players. I think we can agree that is the case on average.

 

It's really how short can you hit and still manage to be scratch?

To me it is a course to course basis. If you can make a course short enough but still manage to keep the course rating and slope high enough then I think maybe 210 or so would max it out. But this player would would have to be an excellent hybrid and fairway wood player though. And have the short game and putter to match. If you could manage to find a 5700-6k yard course that still manages a 72 rating and 130ish slope then I think he has an excellent shot if the rest of his game is very good.

 

Most of the scratch type players that I know who hit the ball short are guys that once hit it longer than they currently do. They used to be plus handicaps but their swing speed has declined over the years and they have had to adapt by becoming even better with their short game and putter. I'd guess that they are still long for their age bracket but short for their handicap range.

This is the point I was making, distance can be a separator but wasn't the original question.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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