How much is enough?

[THEZIPR23]

Distance isn't the deciding factor, however there is a certain level of distance that needs to be maintained in order to play at scratch. Of course that all depends on the course and the conditions. I have never been at scratch but I have maintained a HI between 1-4 for 20 years and I am longer than 95% of the scratch or + players I have played with. I played a 3 wood on my Junior College golf team and there were about 3 people who could hit their driver past me. However most of them beat me regularly. Why? Control of the golf ball. I'll play 14 fantastic holes a round, but with the holes in my swing I'll have 3-4 holes where double bogey creeps in. I once played 18 holes, shot 1 under and made 1 par. That type of inconsistency has plagued me for 23 years of playing this game. I have really focused on some major swing changes in the last 4 months to help close the holes, it is paying off, however even at a 1.0 handicap I am still a ways off from getting lower. 

[RoverRick]

Distance is not really a factor if you play the correct tees. Last month, I was injured and my driving average was 180. I hit a 6 iron 135.  I moved up to the gold tees. Swung easy, very easily, and hit 14 fairways and I think 12 greens. I shot 76.

 

I was not in the bet but if I would have been, I would have beaten the other guys who were still driving it passed me on many holes. They were also hitting 4 clubs less than me.

 

That is after all why they have different tees.

[djahubes]

@djahubes @jlukes @cnosil Rev can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that he is saying that you can hit the ball a long way and not have a proficient short game, putter, approach game. He is merely saying that the easiest way to identify a difference in handicap is by how far players hit the ball. If your average 5 handicap who hit it 230 suddenly wakes up and gains 30 yards, don't you think he will improve multiple shots as soon as he learns his new distances?

 

I pose a question to each of you. How many of you have played with a scratch or better than scratch player and thought, "he hits the ball really short''? Because I know very few scratch players that hit the ball under 250. Most of them are close to 270 or more. Especially when you start talking about guys who are well into the + range.

I don't believe the numbers that were presented. There is no substance behind them. I find it hard to believe that 250 is the actual average for a less than 5 HC. That's all I'm saying. I need to see what's behind them. @revkev mentions distance all the time and has the belief that a lot of players over estimate their numbers and refers to these averages. There may be a lot out there but I base mine off real shots, tracked by gps. I play in a group that ranges from +2 to about 20. I can say for a fact, that at least 50% of them hit it up with me or farther and the majority are higher HCs than me. So if they are able to hit the ball 260+ how is that an indicator? One of the better players, who made it through PGA school is about a 4 at the moment. He is a relatively short hitter, 230ish but excels all over.

 

 

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[MaxEntropy]

I don't believe the numbers that were presented. There is no substance behind them. I find it hard to believe that 250 is the actual average for a less than 5 HC. That's all I'm saying. I need to see what's behind them. @revkev mentions distance all the time and has the belief that a lot of players over estimate their numbers and refers to these averages. There may be a lot out there but I base mine off real shots, tracked by gps. I play in a group that ranges from +2 to about 20. I can say for a fact, that at least 50% of them hit it up with me or farther and the majority are higher HCs than me. So if they are able to hit the ball 260+ how is that an indicator? One of the better players, who made it through PGA school is about a 4 at the moment. He is a relatively short hitter, 230ish but excels all over.

 

 

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I wish I could Like that post more than once....

 

I've struggled with the data that rev and others have presented just because I don't fit in it - I get that it may be a generalization, but it seems to be too gross a generalization that handicap and distance are so precisely linked. My handicap is currently 18 and yesterday I had a 245 yard 3w off the tee that was tracked by GPS. Not keeping it in play hurts me a fair amount, but yesterday it was my short game that sabotaged my score as all but 1 3w off the tee was perfectly playable (not necessarily fairway, but with a shot at the green).

[Undershooter]

@cnosil Now do you see why I posted what I did?    I understood the original question. But others did not.

[Undershooter]

Distance is not really a factor if you play the correct tees. Last month, I was injured and my driving average was 180. I hit a 6 iron 135.  I moved up to the gold tees. Swung easy, very easily, and hit 14 fairways and I think 12 greens. I shot 76.

 

I was not in the bet but if I would have been, I would have beaten the other guys who were still driving it passed me on many holes. They were also hitting 4 clubs less than me.

 

That is after all why they have different tees.

That doesn't exactly work when talking about handicaps. Yes it will help to lower scores but it doesn't mean that the handicap will be affected the same. 

 

The course from the gold tees will be a lower rating/ slope then your normal tees. So you will have to shoot lower than your normal scores just to maintain the same handicap.

 

For example, a course I used to be a member at varied massively depending on the tees you played. The back box is 75.9/142 which means you can shoot 75-76 every other round and be a scratch golfer. Box 2 is 72.4/133 which means you can shoot 72 every other round and still be considered a scratch golfer. Box 3 is 69.2/128 so a scratch can stay there by shooting 69ish every other round.

Playing the correct box for you is always important but it does change the scores you have to make to keep the same handicap. Otherwise certain handicaps would have advantages over others just by playing different boxes. (which can be the case but that's another can of worms)

[Undershooter]

I don't believe the numbers that were presented. There is no substance behind them. I find it hard to believe that 250 is the actual average for a less than 5 HC. That's all I'm saying. I need to see what's behind them. @revkev mentions distance all the time and has the belief that a lot of players over estimate their numbers and refers to these averages. There may be a lot out there but I base mine off real shots, tracked by gps. I play in a group that ranges from +2 to about 20. I can say for a fact, that at least 50% of them hit it up with me or farther and the majority are higher HCs than me. So if they are able to hit the ball 260+ how is that an indicator? One of the better players, who made it through PGA school is about a 4 at the moment. He is a relatively short hitter, 230ish but excels all over.

 

 

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You never really answered my question about scratch or better than scratch players.

 

Also, I had to look b/c I wasn't sure where RP58 got the chart but it seems it is data compiled by Game Golf. Which is a similar system to the Arccos one you use. So I'm not sure how it can be construed other than just the median driver distance for its user when compared to their handicap. It's not like their aren't plenty of outliers. I myself am an outlier as are multiple people in this thread.

MGS has shown similar data, as has arcoss and trackman if I'm not mistaken. 

[djahubes]

You never really answered my question about scratch or better than scratch players.

 

Also, I had to look b/c I wasn't sure where RP58 got the chart but it seems it is data compiled by Game Golf. Which is a similar system to the Arccos one you use. So I'm not sure how it can be construed other than just the median driver distance for its user when compared to their handicap. It's not like their aren't plenty of outliers. I myself am an outlier as are multiple people in this thread.

MGS has shown similar data, as has arcoss and trackman if I'm not mistaken.

We have definitely hit the do loop stage of the thread. For the sake of argument I will concede that the data is accurate (which I still don't believe) my answer is it depends. Here are the averages of a scratch golfer based on a study I am looking at:

 

GIR - 67%

FW hit - 53%

Putts per hole - 1.67

Scrambling - 54%

Sand Saves - 59%

Average driving distance -251 yds

 

Based on that, you can be deficient in one area, say distance and make it up in others. If these are normally distributed then you would expect that 50% of the scratch population falls below the 250 yard average. There is probably some correlation between distance and GIR, so those who don't hit it far probably excel in the other facets. So getting to a minimum distance to play to scratch is not a good metric IMO.

 

Oh and to beat a dead horse even further, the average total distance across Moderate swing speeds in the MGS Most wanted 2018 test is 235+

 

 

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[StrokerAce]

Briefly, you compared a scratch amateur to a lpga player and that it's a more accurate comparison. I wonder about comparing to an average player on the Champions tour? Some guys can still bomb it, but on average, they aren't exceptionally long are they?

 

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[RedHacker48]

Just remember, distance isn't everything. I drove the green on a 370 yard par 4 at my home course and managed a three putt par needless to say I'm not a scratch golfer.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

We have definitely hit the do loop stage of the thread. For the sake of argument I will concede that the data is accurate (which I still don't believe) my answer is it depends. Here are the averages of a scratch golfer based on a study I am looking at:

 

GIR - 67%

FW hit - 53%

Putts per hole - 1.67

Scrambling - 54%

Sand Saves - 59%

Average driving distance -251 yds

 

Based on that, you can be deficient in one area, say distance and make it up in others. If these are normally distributed then you would expect that 50% of the scratch population falls below the 250 yard average. There is probably some correlation between distance and GIR, so those who don't hit it far probably excel in the other facets. So getting to a minimum distance to play to scratch is not a good metric IMO.

 

Oh and to beat a dead horse even further, the average total distance across Moderate swing speeds in the MGS Most wanted 2018 test is 235+

 

 

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LOL... What does MODERATE swing speeds even have to do with it? Of course moderate swing speed players are going to average 235ish. Because they aren't high swing speed players and they aren't low swing speed players. That has zero to do with their handicap. 

 

Also, you have disagreed with the chart from the first page and then post numbers from your own source that are almost identical concerning driving distance. Seems like the chart is pretty decent to me then.

 

Nobody is saying that you have to hit it at least X distance to be scratch.I personally know scratch players who hit it anywhere from 230-330. There are plenty of ways to go about it. That wasn't the question posed.

In this thread we were trying to to determine what the minimum distance is to be a 0 or better.

 

I'm done assisting in this thread jacking. Start your own thread about it if you would like. 

[Undershooter]

Briefly, you compared a scratch amateur to a lpga player and that it's a more accurate comparison. I wonder about comparing to an average player on the Champions tour? Some guys can still bomb it, but on average, they aren't exceptionally long are they?

 

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That's not a bad comparison either Stroker!

I feel like the LPGA players would be better when comparing them to average amateur golfers.

Where the Champions tour players would be better when compared to low single digit handicaps or better players. I say this because even the shortest hitter on the champ tour still averages over 250 per drive. 

[djahubes]

LOL... What does MODERATE swing speeds even have to do with it? Of course moderate swing speed players are going to average 235ish. Because they aren't high swing speed players and they aren't low swing speed players. That has zero to do with their handicap.

 

Also, you have disagreed with the chart from the first page and then post numbers from your own source that are almost identical concerning driving distance. Seems like the chart is pretty decent to me then.

 

Nobody is saying that you have to hit it at least X distance to be scratch.I personally know scratch players who hit it anywhere from 230-330. There are plenty of ways to go about it. That wasn't the question posed.

In this thread we were trying to to determine what the minimum distance is to be a 0 or better.

 

I'm done assisting in this thread jacking. Start your own thread about it if you would like.

Hey bud, you're the one that specifically called us out in the thread. If you disagree fine, but settle down there champ.

 

 

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[revkev]

That's not a bad comparison either Stroker!

I feel like the LPGA players would be better when comparing them to average amateur golfers.

Where the Champions tour players would be better when compared to low single digit handicaps or better players. I say this because even the shortest hitter on the champ tour still averages over 250 per drive.

Yes - I think that LPGA and champions tour players are great places to look at for comparisons. The LPGA players are far more efficient with their drivers though.

 

The chart that RP58 provided is the longest average per category chart that I've seen - I had seen it before.

 

We have another thread on this topic elsewhere but there t shows the same sorts of things.

 

The question remains how long is long enough to play to scratch. I think we are settling in at around 230 - I would agree - I played to a 1 or a tad below averaging somewhere between 230 and 240. If 250 is the average for scratch and generally I gave away 15 to 20 yards to guys in my handicap category - there were exceptions both ways of course - so I think that's about right - if 250 is the average then I made up the difference by being very accurate off the tee (I still am) and a great chipper and very good long putter (really good at three putt avoidance.)

 

 

 

 

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[StrokerAce]

....just to clarify - that's 230 IN THE FAIRWAY.  

 

if you're 230 and don't make it into the short grass it must be very difficult to be a zero handicap.

 

...your point about being extremely efficient when chipping and 3 putt avoidance should not be taken lightly; I think that once you achieve a consistent and accurate distance these 2 factors are paramount.

[djahubes]

Yes - I think that LPGA and champions tour players are great places to look at for comparisons. The LPGA players are far more efficient with their drivers though.

 

The chart that RP58 provided is the longest average per category chart that I've seen - I had seen it before.

 

We have another thread on this topic elsewhere but there t shows the same sorts of things.

 

The question remains how long is long enough to play to scratch. I think we are settling in at around 230 - I would agree - I played to a 1 or a tad below averaging somewhere between 230 and 240. If 250 is the average for scratch and generally I gave away 15 to 20 yards to guys in my handicap category - there were exceptions both ways of course - so I think that's about right - if 250 is the average then I made up the difference by being very accurate off the tee (I still am) and a great chipper and very good long putter (really good at three putt avoidance.)

 

 

 

 

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Here is the most interesting data I've found on the question.

 

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/performance-of-the-average-male-amateur/

 

 

I think 230 is reasonable.

 

 

 

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[cksurfdude]

Just from my own observations I believe a player needs to consistently *carry* their drives at least 225 to play from the most commonly placed "Men's" tees. Whether they can become a scratch player with "only" that distance, though.....?

 

I've also read elsewhere in these forums to look on the scorecard at the longest Par 3 distance you're confident hitting and then play from that set of tees.

[Undershooter]

Hey bud, you're the one that specifically called us out in the thread. If you disagree fine, but settle down there champ.

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I called you out bc what you said wasn't pertinent. That's all.

I'm very calm btw, chief.

[djahubes]

I called you out bc what you said wasn't pertinent. That's all.

I'm very calm btw, chief.

Swing speed and distance isn't pertinent, ok sparky.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

Here is the most interesting data I've found on the question. https://blog.trackmangolf.com/performance-of-the-average-male-amateur/

I think 230 is reasonable.

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Here is the most interesting data I've found on the question. https://blog.trackmangolf.com/performance-of-the-average-male-amateur/

I think 230 is reasonable.

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I was actually trying to find this article yesterday but didn't have the time.

Excellent stuff and find. Thank you for posting.

I find this chart very accurate (as an average of course)

[Undershooter]

Swing speed and distance isn't pertinent, ok sparky.

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Well not if they didn't correlate it to their handicap (which they didn't), gaylord.

[djahubes]

I was actually trying to find this article yesterday but didn't have the time.

Excellent stuff and find. Thank you for posting.

I find this chart very accurate (as an average of course)

Handicap-vs-average-driver-club-speed.png

And I'm just messing around at this point. That trackman article is interesting bc it basically says at the average amateur swing speed at 93 mph, under optimal launch and spin conditions you should see 255 total yards. If that is the average based on their millions of data points I believe it. The chart that was presented shows an average much lower. I presented the moderate swing speed average distance from the most wanted driver test bc it was in the 95 mph range which according to the trackman day is around the average for an amateur. All that said, I believe that the average guy hits is further than what was presented. Take everything as a whole, I don't believe their is any one yardage that will be a minimum for scratch. Too many other variables. At the end of the day, the only way to get there is to have natural ability, a lot of time, and $$$

 

 

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[djahubes]

Well not if they didn't correlate it to their handicap (which they didn't), gaylord.

Really, read the title of the chart. Not too sharp are you there palooka.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

And I'm just messing around at this point. That trackman article is interesting bc it basically says at the average amateur swing speed at 93 mph, under optimal launch and spin conditions you should see 255 total yards. If that is the average based on their millions of data points I believe it. The chart that was presented shows an average much lower. I presented the moderate swing speed average distance from the most wanted driver test bc it was in the 95 mph range which according to the trackman day is around the average for an amateur. All that said, I believe that the average guy hits is further than what was presented. Take everything as a whole, I don't believe their is any one yardage that will be a minimum for scratch. Too many other variables. At the end of the day, the only way to get there is to have natural ability, a lot of time, and $$$

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I hope you got the gaylord joke btw. It's from a 10 year old stand up act. I rarely get to break it out.

 

I understand now but you didn't make that point clear before. Don't you think they are taking tops, skyballs, and horrible mishits into account for the first chart? Since its game golf, I would think so.

Trackman would be more likely to throw out that data. Considering they are trying to find a correlation with swing speed/ distance and the numbers.

 

And yes, there may not be an absolute. But it's fun to talk about sometimes.

Which is why I posted earlier in the thread about variables and how they could play into being able to hit it shorter and still be scratch. I gave my idea on the specifics needed.

[Undershooter]

Really, read the title of the chart. Not too sharp are you there palooka.

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Really, read the title of the chart. Not too sharp are you there palooka.

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I see you didn't know the joke. That's too bad.

I thought you did for a while.

 

 

 

Btw, I'm very aware of the title...

[djahubes]

I hope you got the gaylord joke btw. It's from a 10 year old stand up act. I rarely get to break it out.

 

I understand now but you didn't make that point clear before. Don't you think they are taking tops, skyballs, and horrible mishits into account for the first chart? Since its game golf, I would think so.

Trackman would be more likely to throw out that data. Considering they are trying to find a correlation with swing speed/ distance and the numbers.

 

And yes, there may not be an absolute. But it's fun to talk about sometimes.

Which is why I posted earlier in the thread about variables and how they could play into being able to hit it shorter and still be scratch. I gave my idea on the specifics needed.

All good, that's why I pulled out the pulp fiction. @revkev like to get everyone fired up about distance. He's mad b/c he doesn't have it the way he use to (JK BTW). I do and I still stink.

 

 

 

 

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[djahubes]

I declare a truce!!! Typing on a phone is a difficult proposition and not real time.

 

 

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[GolfJunkie302]

 

 

I understand now but you didn't make that point clear before. Don't you think they are taking tops, skyballs, and horrible mishits into account for the first chart? Since its game golf, I would think so.

Trackman would be more likely to throw out that data. Considering they are trying to find a correlation with swing speed/ distance and the numbers.

From my understanding, Game Golf eliminates "unusually short shots" when calculating their averages. Maybe not to the extent that TrackMan would when compiling their data, but still enough to bring the averages closer to what they should be.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

From my understanding, Game Golf eliminates "unusually short shots" when calculating their averages. Maybe not to the extent that TrackMan would when compiling their data, but still enough to bring the averages closer to what they should be.

 

 

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It may, I'm honestly not sure. But I would bet that it would still include most mishits and shots that hit trees, etc. Trackman won't include any of those. Which would slightly skew the numbers. 

[Undershooter]

I declare a truce!!! Typing on a phone is a difficult proposition and not real time.

 

 

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No reason for a truce man. It was never that serious. All good here.