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How much is enough?


revkev

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--- not to hijack the thread or interrupt the highly entertaining back-and-forth going on but I have a side question...

 

If you don't have enough would you be willing to pay for more ??

 

What do I mean... say you have an older Cobra ZL driver and you can only get to 220 with that....you were never fit for it and don't even know if the shaft is right for you but you hit it okay about 60 percent of the time.  You're a single digit hc because your good at chipping, know your iron distances and hit them well, and rarely - if ever - 3 putt.

 

Would you pay $$$ to 1) go get a fitting ($100) and then 2) buy a new/slightly used driver with the proper shaft ($350) in order to gain that extra 10-20 yards you need to even have the possibility to get to scratch?

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Okay - the numbers are out there and they punch holes in lots of old myths.

 

Length is king on the PGA tour beyond a doubt. But that's not the purpose here. The question is how much is enough distance to be a scratch golfer or to move to the next level where ever you're at.

 

As a reminder the average driving distance on tour is 290.

 

For scratch 255

 

For a 10 235

 

The average golfer around 210 (less depending upon what Study you read)

 

This isn't about your longest drive - it's about an honest assessment of how far you hit the ball on the golf course - consistently.

 

I think a great starting place is the LPGA. The courses that they play range between 6,300 and 6,700 yards. Their average drive is 245. All of them would play to plus handicaps or better than scratch even though they are shorter on average than the average scratch male. So clearly there is a way to make a golf score beyond hitting it a mile for everyone but the very top male golfers.

 

My question is - how much is enough. For me I think it's 235 at Sea Level - I can handle a 6500 yard course - what the FGA recommends for an expert golfer of my age - if I'm averaging that distance.

 

Currently I'm not so it's a goal to get back there.

 

 

 

 

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Excellent question and I think the answer is “it depends” though. Everything depends on the other strengths of your game and the length of your course. If you hit it 230 you are going to have to be a good hybrid player or excellent short gamer to be a scratch I think.

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I hit over 300 and I try to find courses that have option to play 7,000 yards to make it challenging for me and fun as well to use every club in the bag. I'm in my 30s and I am a 5 handicapper playing once a week.

 

Distance does help bc i can drive the ball to play to my strengths which is pw to 8 iron.

 

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--- not to hijack the thread or interrupt the highly entertaining back-and-forth going on but I have a side question...

 

If you don't have enough would you be willing to pay for more ??

 

What do I mean... say you have an older Cobra ZL driver and you can only get to 220 with that....you were never fit for it and don't even know if the shaft is right for you but you hit it okay about 60 percent of the time. You're a single digit hc because your good at chipping, know your iron distances and hit them well, and rarely - if ever - 3 putt.

 

Would you pay $$$ to 1) go get a fitting ($100) and then 2) buy a new/slightly used driver with the proper shaft ($350) in order to gain that extra 10-20 yards you need to even have the possibility to get to scratch?

For sure would invest the money in a fitting. The trackman analysis basically says that most amateurs are leaving 30 yards on the shelf. That is huge. If you can gain somewhere close to that by just an optimized setup, that would immediately improve your game. Instead of long irons into the green, shorter more controlled shots. With all the availability of competent fitters it's worth it.

 

 

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For sure would invest the money in a fitting. The trackman analysis basically says that most amateurs are leaving 30 yards on the shelf. That is huge. If you can gain somewhere close to that by just an optimized setup, that would immediately improve your game. Instead of long irons into the green, shorter more controlled shots. With all the availability of competent fitters it's worth it.

 

 

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The golf digest article said something to the effect that plenty of golfers would benefit from slowing down a bit to get a more efficient swing so that you get closer to that 1.5 smash factor.  Swinging fast is important, I don't doubt that, but if you swing so fast that it doesn't lead to the right positions then it is worthless....or even worse, harmful.

 

I've played with some muscular guys and this is what they seem to do a lot - try to OVERPOWER the golf ball and it goes nowhere.

 

I wonder if there is an optimal swing speed for the shaft/head combination you end up getting fit for .... and if you, through exercise, lessons, etc. are able to increase your swing speed (while maintaining the same/better level of efficiency) you need to go back to the fitter and get an adjustment or new shaft/head ?

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The golf digest article said something to the effect that plenty of golfers would benefit from slowing down a bit to get a more efficient swing so that you get closer to that 1.5 smash factor. Swinging fast is important, I don't doubt that, but if you swing so fast that it doesn't lead to the right positions then it is worthless....or even worse, harmful.

 

I've played with some muscular guys and this is what they seem to do a lot - try to OVERPOWER the golf ball and it goes nowhere.

 

I wonder if there is an optimal swing speed for the shaft/head combination you end up getting fit for .... and if you, through exercise, lessons, etc. are able to increase your swing speed (while maintaining the same/better level of efficiency) you need to go back to the fitter and get an adjustment or new shaft/head ?

From my experience, getting to that 1.5 factor makes a big difference, but optimizing launch and spin is huge. If you were able to substantially increase your ss you would probably need adjusting, but as one fitter I went to said to me recently, you can't teach swing speed. They key is maximizing your own potential. If you are at 95mph and you can optimize that, would probably do better than anyone over swinging.

 

 

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Yesterday on the course I arrived just as my group was teeing off. First drive, if you use that term loosely, left me 290 from the green. No way to reach so I took a hybrid and thought “200 is enough” based on this thread. Hit a great shot.

 

The next tee shot I had the swing thought of “230 is enough”. Hit it 240+ in the fairway. I repeated that thought on every tee and hit every drive over that and down the middle.

 

Unfortunately having this thought or a similar with the irons didn't occur to me until the 16th hole and I ruined almost every great tee shot with a poor iron shot.

 

I'll try that thought today, playing in a couple's scramble.

 

 

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I read something recently - can't remember where, it's been a while - but it said that the reasonable dispersion area at 250 was around 60 yards or so...

meaning that you had 60 yards from left to right, of fairway; I thought that was a bit high but I can see it being like a horizontal conical shape starting from the tee and projecting out.

 

what do you think a reasonable "landing zone" is?  do you think 60-65 yards is fair?  I think sometimes our expectations are way too high and we think we should hit it straight as an arrow every time and the farther away you get from your target the harder that is to do.

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I'd say if the course was ave 6500 yds you could get by at 235-245. I played a tighter course today Quintero in AZ. If you missed the fairways your were absolutely dead no chance in finding it. I felt my Srixon U85 2i was the right play on most of the par fours. Hit it off the tee on 10 holes that were 315-405. I hit it 235-250 and was hitting at most 7i to the greens. I think if you keep it in the fairway at that distance you will score better. If I hit driver I would have lost a few I think and it's the OB and lost balls that kill a score. On holes that distance it sometimes is easier for me to hit a full shot 150 than a awkward distance of 70-80 yards. You can definitely be scratch driving it straight 250. Now on a 7300 yard course it would get tough hitting 3/4 irons into the greens.

 

 

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I read something recently - can't remember where, it's been a while - but it said that the reasonable dispersion area at 250 was around 60 yards or so...

meaning that you had 60 yards from left to right, of fairway; I thought that was a bit high but I can see it being like a horizontal conical shape starting from the tee and projecting out.

 

what do you think a reasonable "landing zone" is?  do you think 60-65 yards is fair?  I think sometimes our expectations are way too high and we think we should hit it straight as an arrow every time and the farther away you get from your target the harder that is to do.

 

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Been reading DECADE golf philosophy?

Not sure what that is...

 

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I read something recently - can't remember where, it's been a while - but it said that the reasonable dispersion area at 250 was around 60 yards or so...

meaning that you had 60 yards from left to right, of fairway; I thought that was a bit high but I can see it being like a horizontal conical shape starting from the tee and projecting out.

 

what do you think a reasonable "landing zone" is?  do you think 60-65 yards is fair?  I think sometimes our expectations are way too high and we think we should hit it straight as an arrow every time and the farther away you get from your target the harder that is to do.

 

60 Yard Wide Fairways!????  While we have a 3 landing areas that you can miss the center line by 30 yards either way and not be blocked out on the next shot, you are in the rough not the fairway. There are several you can hit into an adjacent fairway and have a longer second shot, the fairways at my course average 30 yards wide and 2 that I can think of narrow down to 20=22 yards at 250, and the widest two are 40 yards wide.

 

60-65 yards wide is huge.

 

The only one we have like that is a dogleg that the bend is 230 to the shortest point-260 to OB but the fairway 255 to the end of the fairway and there is 60 yards between the trees and OB, away from the hole. OB is right the entire hole and there is less than 10 yards of rough before OB. So while you have that much error right and left on that hole, you only have that if you drive it the correct distance. But even if you hit that shot, without going over the trees, you are still have a second shot 160 yards from the green with OB right, water half way to the green and bunkers large enough to park a bus in, to the left. Miss this tee shot to the right and not go out of bounds and now you have 220 to this green. The fairway passed the water is 15 yards wide and the green is 45 long and 18 wide.

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60 Yard Wide Fairways!???? While we have a 3 landing areas that you can miss the center line by 30 yards either way and not be blocked out on the next shot, and several you can hit into an adjacent fairway and have a longer second shot, the fairways at my course average 30 yards wide and 2 that I can think of narrow down to 20=22 yards at 250, and the widest two are 40 yards wide.

 

60-65 yards wide is huge.

 

The only one we have like that is a dogleg that the bend is 230 to the shortest point-260 to OB but the fairway 255 to the end of the fairway and there is 60 yards between the trees and OB, away from the hole. OB is right the entire hole and there is less than 10 yards of rough before OB. So while you have that much error right and left on that hole, you only have that if you drive it the correct distance. But even if you hit that shot, without going over the trees, you are still have a second shot 160 yards from the green with OB right, water half way to the green and bunkers large enough to park a bus in, to the left. Miss this tee shot to the right and not go out of bounds and now you have 220 to this green. The fairway passed the water is 15 yards wide and the green is 45 long and 18 wide.

Sounds like a lot of 3 woods and driving irons off the tee for me!

 

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Sounds like a lot of 3 woods and driving irons off the tee for me!

 

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The driver is the most technologically advanced club in the bag. It should be considered a "Scoring Club".

 

Most golfers have the focus backwards. The focus on distance off the tee and in the fairway and then fixate on direction with the putter.

 

The focus should be on direction off the tee and direction and distance control until on the green. Then the focus should shift to distance once on the green. 3 putts are more common because you miss the hole by 5 feet too long or too short, not because you misread the break by 5 feet.

 

Instead of trying to hit the driver XXX yards learn to hit it straight xxx yards.

 

I know that my driving is always better when I throttle it back just a bit and go for accuracy instead of distance. The distance is a function of the good contact rather than more power.

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Been reading DECADE golf philosophy?

Scott is a smart guy. I've never taken a decade class but like the ideals of it to a degree. It's basically smart golf. Which I need to practice but rarely adhere to.

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--- not to hijack the thread or interrupt the highly entertaining back-and-forth going on but I have a side question...

 

If you don't have enough would you be willing to pay for more ??

 

What do I mean... say you have an older Cobra ZL driver and you can only get to 220 with that....you were never fit for it and don't even know if the shaft is right for you but you hit it okay about 60 percent of the time. You're a single digit hc because your good at chipping, know your iron distances and hit them well, and rarely - if ever - 3 putt.

 

Would you pay $$$ to 1) go get a fitting ($100) and then 2) buy a new/slightly used driver with the proper shaft ($350) in order to gain that extra 10-20 yards you need to even have the possibility to get to scratch?

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Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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Just from my own observations I believe a player needs to consistently *carry* their drives at least 225 to play from the most commonly placed "Men's" tees. Whether they can become a scratch player with "only" that distance, though.....?

 

I've also read elsewhere in these forums to look on the scorecard at the longest Par 3 distance you're confident hitting and then play from that set of tees.

Beyond easily

 

Many LPGA players don't carry driver 225 and they would all be plus handicappers - significantly plus 2-4.

 

At 230 I'm talking total distance -

 

For course distance I'm simply using my state golf association's recommendation for expert golfers - that would be 6500 for a senior player - over 55. 6700 for a non- senior.

 

@Strokerace we've pretty firmly established that the average driving distance for scratch is 250. So someone averaging 230 would have to do lots of stuff better than average - more than likely driving accuracy (as trivial as that stat has become) would be elevated in importance. More important than driving accuracy today is penalty avoidance - understand that penalty means in the trees or fairway traps, too.

 

Conversely someone averaging 270 with a 12 does lots of stuff really poorly because they already have a huge strokes gained advantage. Average means average BTW - it doesn't mean top end. Someone who averages 270 will have drives over 300 on occasion just as he or she will have plenty of sub 250 drives.

 

 

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Just from my own observations I believe a player needs to consistently *carry* their drives at least 225 to play from the most commonly placed "Men's" tees. Whether they can become a scratch player with "only" that distance, though.....?

 

I've also read elsewhere in these forums to look on the scorecard at the longest Par 3 distance you're confident hitting and then play from that set of tees.

Beyond easily

 

Many LPGA players don't carry driver 225 and they would all be plus handicappers - significantly plus 2-4.

 

At 230 I'm talking total distance -

 

For course distance I'm simply using my state golf association's recommendation for expert golfers - that would be 6500 for a senior player - over 55. 6700 for a non- senior.

 

@Strokerace we've pretty firmly established that the average driving distance for scratch is 250. So someone averaging 230 would have to do lots of stuff better than average - more than likely driving accuracy (as trivial as that stat has become) would be elevated in importance. More important than driving accuracy today is penalty avoidance - understand that penalty means in the trees or fairway traps, too.

 

Conversely someone averaging 270 with a 12 does lots of stuff really poorly because they already have a huge strokes gained advantage. Average means average BTW - it doesn't mean top end. Someone who averages 270 will have drives over 300 on occasion just as he or she will have plenty of sub 250 drives.

 

 

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Essentially I'm looking at where the trouble most commonly appears to start off the tee .. on the courses and holes I've been on, while admittedly not as numerous as those who've played longer than I have .. frequently trouble appears to start between 200 to 225 .. so if you're hitting _into_ (and not carrying past) that zone - and are not deadly accurate - you may hit (roll) into trouble (incur a penalty) a few times each round....

 

Totally agree that driving accuracy should be important; eg. IF (big if, this is a hypothetical) I could drive the ball 230 on the centerline I would take that all day every day vs. 260 or better but with a 60 or worse yard dispersion.

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Not sure what that is...

 

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It is a teaching method on course management about aiming for areas that suit your miss and have the best chance for recovery. One of the premises is that off the tee you should hit the club that will get you to an area that is 60 yards wide. Do a google search there is a website and some videos on YouTube

 

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Man there's a lot of interesting stuff going on here - thanks guys.

 

@Strokerace yes I'd pay $400 for 20 more yards if it were out there that way. But my equipment already fits, I take lessons and practice so that door is shut right now. Instead I'm trying some sweat equity to increase distance by engaging in golf specific work outs four times a week to increase club head speed. I've been at it two weeks. I will let everyone know how it turns out.

 

At age 55 I was a .8 averaging somewhere between 230-240 off the tee. Distance was not necessarily what kept me from getting that last little bit off my handicap. I needed to improve my accuracy from 125-175 yards. That or hot the ball radically farther to avoid that distance.

 

If you compared my numbers to those of an LPGA player that was clearly my biggest hole.

 

Tons of grist for thought here. I'm inspired to try and get my handicap down low again. The first step is getting the driver back up to 230 plus -

 

Thanks

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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