Who determines pin location?

[Wedgie]

I played the Bay Course at Seaview just outside of Atlantic City today. Nice course and it hosts a LPGA event each year. Anyway the pin placements were brutal. If they weren't on a slope they were tucked in a corner. On 9 I had an uphill 10 footer that I missed left by an inch or so, it rolled about 8 inches past the hole and rolled back in.

 

When we finished up the starter asked how the day was and my playing partner said great but the pin placements were the toughest he had ever seen there. The started said with a grin the pin guy must have had a bad night.

 

Who decides where the pins go for a non tour event? Is it the pin guy? Do they have a set pattern?

 

Thanks

 

 

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[RoverRick]

In theory the "committee" sets up the course for a tournament, and that means the head greenskeeper or Director of Golf tells the actual pin cutter where to put them. Often, for a tournament weekend, you can see where they have marked the spots with different colored dots.

 

However, I would bet that most days the guy that does it, has little to no supervision. Sure, there may be a method or a pattern that they are to follow in putting it in a certain part of the green, but his instructions are probably to find an area that is in a certain condition in a certain part of the green.

 

For the most part, I would bet that he just picks a spot and puts the pins there.

 

US Open weekend the flags on my course were set up a flag length from the edge. You did not want to short side yourself.

[Golfspy_CG2]

Rover is pretty spot on as for day to day placements.

 

At our course you'd be surprised how many guys on the crew don't play golf and look at it from that perspective.

 

So they are told to move Mondays front pin to the middle on Tuesday. And while they may have received some initial training on what to look for. They often don't see subtle ridges that may cause major issues.

 

Both our Super and Assitant ride both courses daily. And if one of them sees a really bad one, they'll radio the guy to come back and they explain to him why it's bad and hopefully he'll learn from it.

 

 

 

 

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[robertson153]

Sometimes I think it's the biggest d**k in the world that had the worst day possible and decided to take it out on us golfers. (I am just joking). On non tournament weeks ours are simple, front, middle, back in that order. So if #1 it's middle, #2 will be back and #3 will be front and so on. Left, right, or middle is up to head greenskeeper.

 

 

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[Shankster]

At my course. It is hungover college kids... no joke.

[Wedgie]

It sucks hitting an approach pin high and having an 8 footer with 2 feet of break and knowing if you don't slam it in you'll have another 8 footer coming back.

 

 

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[RoverRick]

At my course. It is hungover college kids... no joke.

 

 

At our course you'd be surprised how many guys on the crew don't play golf

 

Certainly what we see most are the people that get there at 6 am mostly before the supervisor even gets there except on special occasions.

 

On those rare instances when the pin cutter actually knows about golf rather then simply how to run the mower and use the pin cutter it is as Shankers says, the hungover college student, or high school kids that took the job because they earn a little money and play the course later in the day. Since they cut the pin they have the advantage of knowing exactly where the break is and sometimes can use that to their advantage.

 

We had one high school kid (-5 handicap at 16) that would put them in difficult places.

[Wedgie]

Certainly what we see most are the people that get there at 6 am mostly before the supervisor even gets there except on special occasions.

 

On those rare instances when the pin cutter actually knows about golf rather then simply how to run the mower and use the pin cutter it is as Shankers says, the hungover college student, or high school kids that took the job because they earn a little money and play the course later in the day. Since they cut the pin they have the advantage of knowing exactly where the break is and sometimes can use that to their advantage.

 

We had one high school kid (-5 handicap at 16) that would put them in difficult places.

My pin cutter today must not have been playing today.

 

 

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[revkev]

It sucks hitting an approach pin high and having an 8 footer with 2 feet of break and knowing if you don't slam it in you'll have another 8 footer coming back.

 

 

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Come play my course - that's all there is on some of the greens. The joys of a private club!

 

But at least we know from the fairway that 30 feet short and left is better than hole high 12 feet right.

 

 

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[Kenny B]

My course changes pin locations every other day, except for the weekend because of the high traffic.  When I play on Sunday, the pins are the same on Monday; Tuesday and Wednesday same; Thursday and Friday same; Saturday has a new pin, and then Sunday has a new pin, and it starts all over.  The locations will change on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday if there is a tournament with a practice round on Friday.  Of course, pins also change each day during the week when a junior tournament is played.

 

There are 6 red flags, 6 white/yellow flags, and 6 blue flags.  The only criteria that I know of is that those flags must be used, and only those flags; no additional colored flags.  I was told once that a typical public course usually has 6 easy pin, 6 difficult pins, and 6 somewhere in-between.  

 

At my course the most difficult pins are usually in the front.  Greens are very firm, and almost impossible to land on the edge of the green and have it stop short of the middle, usually near the back of the green.

[GCSAA Supt]

When I was a GC Super. I always had my Assistant change the cups.  It was another set of eyes on the greens and he understood the idea or balancing a course with front, back, right left...easy hard, medium.  We had basic guidelines for slopes and edges that the entire staff was aware of and days the Assistant didn't move the cups it was one of the college kids who could PLAY!.  (seems I always had a single digit player on staff!)  I found with reasonable guidelines and golfing knowledge, most of my cup cutters did fine.

 

For our bigger events, I would spot the hole locations with a small dot of marking paint.  

 

JIm

[PlaidJacket]

I've had this conversation before with our super.

They are usually set by assistant unless a tournament where the head pro & super selects them each day. Our greens are rather small so placements are somewhat limited. The pins are usually set in very playable positions for regular play. Which I like. Neither me or anyone else is playing in an Open. We're out there to try and play well and have fun.

There have been a few times I recall where the pins were set on a Saturday in very difficult positions and the course slowed to a crawl. Ridiculous. I think they learned.

[Charli]

When I see bad pin spots I feel someone had a bad morning or night before. That's the only real reason someone would put the pins in terrible spots. Misery loves company

[Golfspy_CG2]

As has been suggested, depending on your course, there are potentially a lot of people that could be responsible for pin placements - but what hasn't been mentioned is the time of year and the amount of play a course may have.

Many years ago after an especially troubling round where I found, considering slope of the greens and such, some all but unplayable pins - and after the round I spotted the superintendent/head greens keeper who on his staff was responsible for such madness, and he quite confidently admitted he was.

 

He went on to explain that some greens have a limited number of pin placements anyway (if you factor in a 10 foot circle around each hole that receives foot traffic), and then during the summer months the grounds crew really struggles keeping some greens alive (let alone the greens that have a lot of slopes that want to leave some areas green and other areas drying out). Then when you factor in that during the early summer months and late fall when courses receive their highest volume of traffic, and that foot traffic is really rough on greens, that if he only used the best pin locations that they could kill a green and make them unplayable in a matter of weeks. And then on top of all that, he felt a responsibility to "save" some of the optimum pin placement choices for tournament season (just like you hear them mention during majors having Friday/Saturday/Sunday pin placements), which also happens to coincide with the summer months when the course also receives the most traffic, it often left him with a quandry - occasionally place the flags in some inconvenient spots for sake of a tournament next week, or have golfers gripping during the tournament because the greens are all chewed up. ...

 

He went on and on, and suddenly I felt kind of bad for even mentioning it. ... But at the end of the day the thought occurred, that just like any job, "His job wasn't always easy, and all decisions weren't simple, and that he really did know what he doing."

Good post. Also something I've learned from our super is how greens with slopes that face a particular direction see more sun than greens that face the opposite direction and therefore he has to avoid certain areas of that green that will see more stress from the sun/heat. Much like you mention. Often times so much more goes into it than just someone having a bad night. That's an overused and often false attempt at humor.

 

 

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[revkev]

I thought of this thread while playing today. Our greens are a little slower in the summer to protect them from the heat - but that lets the Super try out some more difficult pin positions. There were some tough ones out there today. But then again it's a private club and I know the greens well - no surprises out there for me really except on 6.

 

But that hole was messed up because you hit from a mat on the cart path left of the landing area due to the fairway repair work. So I hit it in the left rough even though I thought I was hitting it straight and optically from there I thought the pin was left when it was almost off the green right. Oops - there's a trap where I thought the green was.

 

 

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[GB13]

I thought of this thread while playing today. Our greens are a little slower in the summer to protect them from the heat - but that lets the Super try out some more difficult pin positions. There were some tough ones out there today. But then again it's a private club and I know the greens well - no surprises out there really.

 

 

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That is an interesting thought. The greens at my home course are really really sloped but they keep the greens slow enough that they are still playable..... barely. There is one green that you can't put the flag on the right half of or the ball will roll back into the bunker any putt you hit. I guess that shows that you can have a lot of slope and still be playable.

[SteddyGolf]

If you have a good superintendent and pro they work together to achieve even wear of the greens while maintaining a certain level of playability. If you don't have the aforementioned relationship then it's left up to a minimum wage worker to either follow a rotation schedule or make a random decision in the dark before the days play begins.

 

Running a golf course is a business. Without you, the player consumer, there is no business. If you feel strongly about the pin placements on your home course or a course you frequent regularly I recommend you voice your concerns. Believe it or not, they want you to have a good time and more importantly they want you to return.

 

We can all help by fixing our ball marks, picking up our feet while walking on the greens and keeping things off the green (bags and carts) that should not be there. If we do what we should do as players the chance of having uniform greens across 18 holes increases considerably.

[Charli]

Sometimes it feels like it's based off the night they had.