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Bryson’s compass illegal - USGA


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I don't disagree with MGoBlue or jmikecpa but come on they have to enforce their rules. A compass? When a range finder isn't allowed a compass seems absurd.

 

It's never fun to be the one in charge - I agree that the USGA appears obsessed with being in charge.

 

 

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I don't disagree with MGoBlue or jmikecpa but come on they have to enforce their rules. A compass? When a range finder isn't allowed a compass seems absurd.

 

It's never fun to be the one in charge - I agree that the USGA appears obsessed with being in charge.

 

 

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I agree they have to enforce the rules but what rule is this enforcing? I think the rangefinder is a more technology based product which takes the skill out of it. You still have to know how to use the compass and what to do with it. The rangefinder you just click a button and it takes skill out of the game.

If the compass is illegal just mark inch lines on the pencil you use.

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I agree they have to enforce the rules but what rule is this enforcing? I think the rangefinder is a more technology based product which takes the skill out of it. You still have to know how to use the compass and what to do with it. The rangefinder you just click a button and it takes skill out of the game.

If you can't use the compass just mark inch lines on the pencil you use.

If you can't use a compass you don't know where North is. That's pretty hard to do given that you need only know what time it is and where the sun is.

 

Is it allowable for me to know where the sun is?

 

 

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I didn't like the use of the compass because it was one of those areas that seemed against the rules. That was my only gripe about its use. Same way that I thought what Phil did with hitting the moving putt should have been punished more severely than a 2 stroke penalty.

 

Do I think the rule and ruling against the compass as correct, no. It's a weird gray area. I like the idea of a player working to find their own data and using it to help them win. Just need to be within the rules of the game at the time and hope the USGA actually evolves.

 

 

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If you can't use a compass you don't know where North is. That's pretty hard to do given that you need only know what time it is and where the sun is.

 

Is it allowable for me to know where the sun is?

 

 

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Um...rev...they mean the compass you use to draw circles with, not the kind that locates north.  The north south compass is specifically legal.  The other kind is a artificial device, unusual on a golf course, that Bryson was specifically using to measure distances on his green book.  That makes it fairly clearly against the rule as it is worded now.  For better or worse, the USGA has to enforce the rules as they are written, even when the result (like this one) seems a bit over the top.  On the plus side, this leaves one fewer ways for Bryson to slow up play while he over-evaluates every possible variable in every shot.

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I was actually very shocked that it was ruled as illegal. 

 

With him being an engineer, what would prevent him from saying my finger, or pencil, is x long and doing the same thing as he did with the compass?  Granted it won't be as precise, but I bet it would be close.  Would his finger now be illegal?  If I'm not mistaken, he was just using the compass with a scale saying 1 in = 6 feet.  I would venture to guess that when he went to look at his putt, he counted his steps to the hole from a certain point, knowing 1 step equals 3 feet, to verify where they said they put the hole is actually where it was.

 

Also how many times has he used it before he was actually in one of the final groups where the TV cameras were on him?  I'm sure this wasn't the first time, and to my knowledge he's not regularly put on the clock for slow play if that's the argument.  

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Curious though, since the compass was deemed “illegal”, does that make Bryson a cheater? Was he then DQ'd from the tournaments where he used it? Or does he forfeit the money earned in those tourney's? In other cases, when a player was deemed to have broken the rules, they were assessed penalties,even after the round was over. Just wondering. If there is no penalty, then was it really illegal, or was it just something the USGA didn't like, so they made it illegal at that time. So it wasn't illegal, they didn't like it so they made it a rule that he can't use it.

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Curious though, since the compass was deemed “illegal”, does that make Bryson a cheater? Was he then DQ'd from the tournaments where he used it? Or does he forfeit the money earned in those tourney's? In other cases, when a player was deemed to have broken the rules, they were assessed penalties,even after the round was over. Just wondering. If there is no penalty, then was it really illegal, or was it just something the USGA didn't like, so they made it illegal at that time. So it wasn't illegal, they didn't like it so they made it a rule that he can't use it.

They have never once assessed a penalty after an entire competition was closed.  They took specific care to explain that Bryson was not going to be penalized.

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They have never once assessed a penalty after an entire competition was closed. They took specific care to explain that Bryson was not going to be penalized.

But they have assessed a penalty after a round during the tournament. They just hadn't made a decision on this until after the competition was over.

I just think the USGA did t know what to do, but I'm not sure how this should be illegal, the pin sheets that are given give all the information, he used the compass to plot the actual location on the sheet, instead of using the generic plot that the USGA gave him. Other than the possible time issues I don't see a problem with this. If they would assess time penalties this wouldn't be an issue since he would be well over the time limit while doing this.

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But they have assessed a penalty after a round during the tournament. They just hadn't made a decision on this until after the competition was over.

I just think the USGA did t know what to do, but I'm not sure how this should be illegal, the pin sheets that are given give all the information, he used the compass to plot the actual location on the sheet, instead of using the generic plot that the USGA gave him. Other than the possible time issues I don't see a problem with this. If they would assess time penalties this wouldn't be an issue since he would be well over the time limit while doing this.

This is from Rule 34-1:

 

 

 

b. Stroke Play

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

They MAY apply penalties between rounds in a multiple-day event, but once the results are announced, they may not apply a penalty.  Bryson is safe.

And again, the issue is that Bryson used a "device".  The compass is unquestionably a device, and there's no question in my mind that its "unusual" on a golf course, and Bryson said he used it to establish distances on his detailed greens book.  I'm not sure how they could justify allowing it, given the wording of the rule.

I'm looking at the 2019 rules, and wondering about Bryson's compass, and even the use of "greens books."  Under the new rules, you won't be allowed to use "equipment" that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgement that is essential to the challenge of the game".  To me, the detailed greens books showing degrees of slope and directions of breaks do just that, reduce the need for skill or judgement.  On the other hand, you WILL be allowed to get "information on distance or direction (such as from a distance-measuring device or compass)."   I know, its a different kind of compass, but could the compass be back in?  

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This is from Rule 34-1:

 

They MAY apply penalties between rounds in a multiple-day event, but once the results are announced, they may not apply a penalty. Bryson is safe.

And again, the issue is that Bryson used a "device". The compass is unquestionably a device, and there's no question in my mind that its "unusual" on a golf course, and Bryson said he used it to establish distances on his detailed greens book. I'm not sure how they could justify allowing it, given the wording of the rule.

I'm looking at the 2019 rules, and wondering about Bryson's compass, and even the use of "greens books." Under the new rules, you won't be allowed to use "equipment" that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgement that is essential to the challenge of the game". To me, the detailed greens books showing degrees of slope and directions of breaks do just that, reduce the need for skill or judgement. On the other hand, you WILL be allowed to get "information on distance or direction (such as from a distance-measuring device or compass)." I know, its a different kind of compass, but could the compass be back in?

I think it would be great to get rid of greens books as IMHO it removes the skill of green reading.

However I think Distance measuring devices should be allowable because that information is already available. This info is in yardage books already therefore it wouldn't remove a skill.

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I think it would be great to get rid of greens books as IMHO it removes the skill of green reading.

.

How much information do you think the player should be able to capture about the greens in their books? Just the shape? Undulations? Pin positions?

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How much information do you think the player should be able to capture about the greens in their books? Just the shape? Undulations? Pin positions?

Shape, pin positions, large ridges and such. I just don't like something that exact telling you; this putt is along a 1.3 degree slope and will break about 4-6 inches. You need to be able to see that yourself.

 

I think during a practice round you can write or make whatever you want about the green. I don't like outside companies making information for the players.

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Shape, pin positions, large ridges and such. I just don't like something that exact telling you; this putt is along a 1.3 degree slope and will break about 4-6 inches. You need to be able to see that yourself.

 

I think during a practice round you can write or make whatever you want about the green. I don't like outside companies making information for the players.

Are you against aimpoint, since it teaches you to determine the slope and how much break for that slope?

 

Do you advocate collecting the books after the tournament? Can the player go during the year and make notes? Can they hire someone to collect the info? Can they use devices to capture slope during those practice rounds? Can they bring 18 people with them to each map a green? Can I get a map from another player if they will share?

 

The difficulty is where do you draw the line on what information is acceptable and how it is captured.

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Are you against aimpoint, since it teaches you to determine the slope and how much break for that slope?

 

Do you advocate collecting the books after the tournament? Can the player go during the year and make notes? Can they hire someone to collect the info? Can they use devices to capture slope during those practice rounds? Can they bring 18 people with them to each map a green? Can I get a map from another player if they will share?

 

The difficulty is where do you draw the line on what information is acceptable and how it is captured.

Aimpoint is done by the player and caddie. Therefore it is a skill used by he player to read the greens.

 

I agree a line is difficult to draw.

With the rules being redone the way they are, these are questions the USGA needs to answer. This would take significant effort to work out all of the problems.

Personally I think any effort by the player since it all takes skill is fine. I think outsourcing it removes skill.

Once the rules are enacted it seems difficult for the USGA to say greens books are still legal.

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.

Personally I think any effort by the player since it all takes skill is fine. I think outsourcing it removes skill.

.

I am assuming you are including caddie as well since caddies walk the course gathering data each tournament.

 

I personally don't have an opinion one way or another. As I am pointing out it is t a black and white kind of decision.

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I agree that greens books should be banned.  Players and caddies can gather all the information they want before the tournament, any way they want.  Study them, but bring the information to the course in your head.  A greens book in the bag should carry the same penalty as a 15th club.  Greens reading is a skill that's a part of the game as any other skill needed to play the game.  That's black and white and fair to all.

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This is from Rule 34-1:

 

They MAY apply penalties between rounds in a multiple-day event, but once the results are announced, they may not apply a penalty. Bryson is safe.

And again, the issue is that Bryson used a "device". The compass is unquestionably a device, and there's no question in my mind that its "unusual" on a golf course, and Bryson said he used it to establish distances on his detailed greens book. I'm not sure how they could justify allowing it, given the wording of the rule.

I'm looking at the 2019 rules, and wondering about Bryson's compass, and even the use of "greens books." Under the new rules, you won't be allowed to use "equipment" that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgement that is essential to the challenge of the game". To me, the detailed greens books showing degrees of slope and directions of breaks do just that, reduce the need for skill or judgement. On the other hand, you WILL be allowed to get "information on distance or direction (such as from a distance-measuring device or compass)." I know, its a different kind of compass, but could the compass be back in?

Is it a device? Everything about this is manual. There are no electronics involved. Everything about how to use this comes from inside your mind. He was given some dimensions from the USGA and used his mind and a tool to make an accurate plot on the green chart that he was given by the USGA. So to me, this is nothin more than USGA flexing their muscle to say we can to what we want. We will make it up as we go. You have one guy that does thing a bit different and they don't like it. They make up rules or ban something because in their infantile minds and they can't understand it. they don't even know for sure if it is an advantage for him, they don't like it so it's not allowed. Bryson can't use a sidesaddle putter because?? No idea, but the aimpoit guys can straddle their line from the ball up to the hole and back and it's okay, but standing next to the line while facing the hole is not allowed. Againthe USGA making crap up because he's different. I don't even like Bryson, but you don't have to like the guy to see he's getting railroaded because he does it different.

Personally I don't think he should be able to use any of it, the same way JS, JT, DJ and all those guys shouldn't be able to bring out a green book to tell them exactly how the putt will move. None of it should be allowed, but how can you allow some tools and not others. The green books are just as much a device as a compass.

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Are you against aimpoint, since it teaches you to determine the slope and how much break for that slope?

 

Do you advocate collecting the books after the tournament? Can the player go during the year and make notes? Can they hire someone to collect the info? Can they use devices to capture slope during those practice rounds? Can they bring 18 people with them to each map a green? Can I get a map from another player if they will share?

 

The difficulty is where do you draw the line on what information is acceptable and how it is captured.

From a purist standpoint I think I would say ban any outside information for use during a competitive round. So no green books, no yardage books, no home made guides, no nothing. You and your caddy figure it out. You want to memorize your own charts ahead of time go right ahead. AimPoint is you on the course using your own judgement so no problem there either. But no outside info at all.

But from the standpoint that professional golf is commerical entertainment then I guess I say who cares, let them use whatever, they still have to put it in the hole.

So both. Can I vote both?

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  • 2 weeks later...

From a purist standpoint I think I would say ban any outside information for use during a competitive round. So no green books, no yardage books, no home made guides, no nothing. You and your caddy figure it out. You want to memorize your own charts ahead of time go right ahead. AimPoint is you on the course using your own judgement so no problem there either. But no outside info at all.

But from the standpoint that professional golf is commerical entertainment then I guess I say who cares, let them use whatever, they still have to put it in the hole.

So both. Can I vote both?

Gaussman

 

I see your point about no outside information. But notes have always been allowed. If a player or caddie makes the note with no outside equipment I think this should be fine. It is simply their judgement of movement, slope or distance. Aimpoint to me is another green reading system, FINE. But if the system works ( and it definitely appears to) the exact slope to plug this into a formula become a different thing. 

 

Your point about entertainment is a good one. But if that is the case then why not allow them to put a line down as long as they can hit the right speed and line who cares if it is marked.

 

I am leaning towards your point of nothing outside of the player's judgement because if you allow notes and other records cheating will be likely and where is the line.

 

But also if they allow any device to measure (before or during a round) then they should allow all of them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So the new rules will be in place in January. Did they go too far? From my interpretation you cannot mark anything in your book that is less than 4* of slope. Saw a twitter post from someone that takes with a top 100 player who thought every yardage book made by a player will now be considered illegal. Wondering how this will be enforced, yardage book checks on the first tee? What shorthand will the players start using to get around the rules?

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Now that's funny. Sad and true as well.

 

In NY we have “common core” mathematics. It's the king of all horsefeathers. Google it, if you can figure it out let me know so I can prepare when my daughter hits middle school.

I didn't like common core when my daughter was introduced to it. I still felt like they needed to ground the kids in more of the basic mathematics before jumping into the common core. Just another way to math and that's common core strength. Kind of think outside of the box to achieve the same end result.

 

As for The Compass thing, I think the use of science to score well is great, but no need to introduce more gadgets into the game. These guys (and gals on the LPGA) are great enough without all the added gizmos (hence why they are all on tour). Let their abilities talk for themselves.

 

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Common core, now that's a topic all on its own.

Yep, a sub topic of the rant thread 😁😂🤣

 

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Fairway Woods: :cobra-small: F8 3W Project X Even Flow Blue 75g shaft

Fairway Woods: 

Hybrid: :titelist-small: TSR2  18° Graphite Design Tour AD DI-85 Shaft

Irons: :titelist-small: 2021 T200's 4-GW AMT RED shafts Regular Flex

Wedge: :cleveland-small: Tour Satin RTX 4 Wedges in 52° and 56° 2 Dot

Putter: :nevercompromise-small: Gray Matter TDP 2.2 32.75"

Bag: :1590477705_SunMountain: Three 5

Ball:  :titelist-small:  PRO V1 / :srixon-small: Z*Star

RangeFinder:918457628_PrecisionPro: In search of new range finder

Social Media:

Facebook:   MD Golfhacker
Twitter:        @mdgolfhacker
Instagram:   mdgolfhacker

 

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