UPRIGHT CLUBS

[BenjaminButtonz]

I have a question I hope someone on here could shed some light on. What is the effects of increasing the lie of your club MORE upright? Example, when ordering clubs the lie can be set anywhere from minus a few degrees, to zero (standard lie) , to a few degrees more upright?

 

I understand it's for a players swing path and how their natural swing affects How the club interacts with the ground.

 

I am more curious as to how a club that could be potentially MORE UPRIGHT than a fitter would suggest too you. What would be the affects/ pro's & cons / advantage/ disadvantage of this?

 

Back-Story:

 

I've never been fit for a wedge, but when I found some Ping glides in mint condition inside of a second hand bin and bought them beginning of summer, they were a dream to hit from the first swing. The groups were midsize which was something I was not used to but Felt much more comfortable and natural in my hands than standard grips I had played prior. These wedges had a small blue dot, and after a little research I found out what the colors meant on pings website. Now knowing these are more upright than “standard” , and never being fit for wedges before, this is what raises the question. I'm sure anyone could eventually adapt to any kind of club after enough practice and adjusting.

 

Any thoughts, tips, or experiences anyone would like to share would be greatly appreciated! I truly don't think their hurting my game, and could actually for all I know by luck of chance be the exact “Ping color code” a fitter would suggest to me anyways. I'll never know until I get fit, but I'll take all the information until then I can get.

 

Much thanks !

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[null]

If you were talking about someone that had a swing that was neutral, and upright lie angle would:

Cause the ball to draw more
and
Potentially cause the heel of the club to catch the ground first resulting in inconsistent contact.

If you raise the handle of the club at impact and strike the ball toe down, having clubs slightly bent upright would compensate for that and help neutralize the ball flight and provide more consistent contact

[cnosil]

Every manufacturer has standard specs for their clubs. The key is that there is no standard between manufacturers or even across clubs from the same manufacturer.

 

When getting fit a fitter will assess how you swing the club and how you setup as well as you physical traits such as height and arm length. Based on your needs and the clubs you are fit in to you will be given specs for the lie angle. This lie angle may be standard, or up or down from standard. Ping simply uses a color code instead of a number.

 

Does that answer your question?

[Golfspy_CG2]

Great explanation there by Jlukes

[PING Apologist #9]

Go to PING's website and fill out your info in the "nFlight Web" tool under "fitting". There it will guide you to take some static measurements of your height, wrist-to-floor, longest finger, etc. Once you have all that data entered, fill in the rest to be "fitted" and see what lie angle they recommend for you. I've found that my data was spot-on for green dot (2* up) when after I did a live fitting using a lie board and "scuff" tape showed the same recommendation. Many on here don't like the nFlight too too much, but I've found it to be fairly accurate for me thus far in several aspects. Give it a shot for fun! Link below.

 

http://nflightweb.ping.com/#ready

[poprocksncoke]

What jlukes said ^^ 

[GolfSpy MPR]

Just saying the same thing as jlukes (and others), but maybe a different way.

 

An "ideal" neutral swing delivers the club with the sole level to the ground. A less than ideal swing will deliver the club either toe down (very common) or heel down.

 

If the toe is down, the clubface will point right. This would obvious tend to create a right miss. On the other hand, a heel-down delivery will tend to create a left miss.

 

By adjusting lie angle, a club fitter can attempt to neutralize the delivery of the clubhead. Making the lie angle more upright will bring the toe down; making the lie angle flatter will raise the toe.

 

[Edit: I goofed. See follow up discussion.]

[null]

Every manufacturer has standard specs for their clubs. The key is that there is no standard between manufacturers or even across clubs from the same manufacturer.

 

When getting fit a fitter will assess how you swing the club and how you setup as well as you physical traits such as height and arm length. Based on your needs and the clubs you are fit in to you will be given specs for the lie angle. This lie angle may be standard, or up or down from standard. Ping simply uses a color code instead of a number.

 

Does that answer your question?

 

Great point about "standard" lie angles not being consistent across manufacturers.  Just because you may be "one degree toe up" in on OEM doesn't mean that you are one degree toe up in another.

[cnosil]

By adjusting lie angle, a club fitter can attempt to neutralize the delivery of the clubhead. Making the lie angle more upright will bring the toe down; making the lie angle flatter will raise the toe.

Trying to wrap my head around this, isn't this backwards. If I move my hands up or down this is true, but if I keep my hands in the same place and change the clubs lie angle, upright brings the toe up and flat pushes the toe down.

[null]

Trying to wrap my head around this, isn't this backwards. If I move my hands up or down this is true, but if I keep my hands in the same place and change the clubs lie angle, upright brings the toe up and flat pushes the toe down.

 

Indeed mp has it a bit backwards.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Trying to wrap my head around this, isn't this backwards. If I move my hands up or down this is true, but if I keep my hands in the same place and change the clubs lie angle, upright brings the toe up and flat pushes the toe down.

 

Good catch: I'm writing in a Wendy's, stopping for lunch with my wife and four kids; not the best environment for trying to do a semitechnical post

 

You (and jlukes) are right and I messed that up: by making the club upright, I'd be raising the toe.

 

I'd go back and edit the original post, but I'll leave it up as a monument to my periodic stupidity 

[golfinnut]

 

A club which is too upright for the golfer will hit the ground with the heel of the club, causing the clubface to close and resulting in a pull or hook (for right-handed players.) A club which is too flat will hit the ground with the toe of the club causing the clubface to open and resulting in a push or slice (for right-handed players.)

[cnosil]

lieangle.jpg

 

A club which is too upright for the golfer will hit the ground with the heel of the club, causing the clubface to close and resulting in a pull or hook (for right-handed players.) A club which is too flat will hit the ground with the toe of the club causing the clubface to open and resulting in a push or slice (for right-handed players.)

 

 

Not necessarily accurate.  The ball should be gone before the club hits the ground.  

[BenjaminButtonz]

I've got all of the answers I was looking for, and then some. jlukes hit spot on, with other answers honing any leftover question marks. Appreciate the wisdom and input everyone! I can definitely speak first hand that different manufactures play differently. I have Callaway MD4's that I had spec'd to 1 up and a little long to match the ping wedges and fill in the gaps. They don't feel the same or swing the same, and it's a feeling that has sometimes scared me off from playing with them when the pings feel that little extra bit more comfortable, confident, and almost feel like they swing themselves without any outside thought or motivation. Both similar grinds between the Ping and callaway wedges (SS and S) as well. I can still hit the MD4's decent, but that's after practice engraved those slight changes between the two to become second nature. Definitely would have helped to been fit for my wedges, I can admit that.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[jb0330]

Agree with everything said. The only thing I would add is yoir swing can come in at Impact more upright or down and the old process was to adjust to bring you back to striking middle of sole. TXG made a video on this.

 

https://youtu.be/aiDR6hHVrHQ

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[BenjaminButtonz]

Agree with everything said. The only thing I would add is yoir swing can come in at Impact more upright or down and the old process was to adjust to bring you back to striking middle of sole. TXG made a video on this.

 

https://youtu.be/aiDR6hHVrHQ

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I love what these guys are doing, I'm surprised I haven't seen this one yet. Good lookin out!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[MaxEntropy]

Trying to wrap my head around this, isn't this backwards. If I move my hands up or down this is true, but if I keep my hands in the same place and change the clubs lie angle, upright brings the toe up and flat pushes the toe down.

 

This entire topic has had me confused and I was thinking a little backwards, but /\ /\ /\ description helps me understand the best.

[gaussman1]

This entire topic has had me confused and I was thinking a little backwards, but /\ /\ /\ description helps me understand the best.

I've always found this a difficult thing to conceptualize. It's easiest for me to picture when I think of the club seated and clamped in a loft/lie machine at manufacturer's stated lie angle. Pushing the hosel up toward the club head makes it more upright and pulling the hosel down makes it flatter. The loft/lie machine measures the increase or decrease in angle.

The other concept I struggle with is how adding length makes the club play more upright 1* per 1/2". That one takes me a minute to work around in my head

[cnosil]

.

The other concept I struggle with is how adding length makes the club play more upright 1* per 1/2". That one takes me a minute to work around in my head

Simple way is to think about keeping your hands in the same place they are. When you lengthen the club it moves the head away from you. Just Moving the head away from you causes the toe to rise.

[gaussman1]

Simple way is to think about keeping your hands in the same place they are. When you lengthen the club it moves the head away from you. Just Moving the head away from you causes the toe to rise.

Thats a good thought. I've always pictured at as swapping heads and shafts. If I put the 9 iron head on an 8 iron shaft it's now 1/2 longer but at a 9 iron lie so must be swung slightly more upright to get the toe down

[MaxEntropy]

I've always found this a difficult thing to conceptualize. It's easiest for me to picture when I think of the club seated and clamped in a loft/lie machine at manufacturer's stated lie angle. Pushing the hosel up toward the club head makes it more upright and pulling the hosel down makes it flatter. The loft/lie machine measures the increase or decrease in angle.

The other concept I struggle with is how adding length makes the club play more upright 1* per 1/2". That one takes me a minute to work around in my head

 

Thanks - I think I was thinking of this mostly correct, but part of my confusion is the image that shows club too upright (so heel hitting) with the diagram clearly showing the shaft/hosel laying down closer to the ground while the "too flat" (toe hitting) shows a more upright shaft/hosel. Thinking in your terms (how I bend the hosel) makes a lot more sense to me.

[Sluggo42]

I guess the only thing to add to this is to take your clubs to a fitter and he will put some tape, or powder, and have you hit a few off the flat board, after you e warmed up and are swinging normally.

 

They'll first measure the club to see how it stands presently, whether flat or up.

Then after a few full speed hits, they'll look at the tape on the sole, and then be able to tell you how “your swing” is, when making contact.

Then they can bend it either way to make it an even contact at impact.

 

Keep in mind some people like it a little one way or the other- and there is not specific rule you must adhere to. Other than what works best for your game.

 

It's just one more “tweek” that can help you dial in your game just a little better-

Cheers

[NiftyNiblick]

I  order irons 1 to 1½º flat or I hook them or catch the heel a little bit.

And I hate metalwoods that set up with the toe pointing to the sky..

 

Mizuno irons, for some reason, usually don't need adjustment.

 

One can save money buying used gear, but then the loft and lie adjustments are up to you.

[Kor.A.Door]

I order irons 1 to 1½º flat or I hook them or catch the heel a little bit.

And I hate metalwoods that set up with the toe pointing to the sky..

 

Mizuno irons, for some reason, usually don't need adjustment.

 

One can save money buying used gear, but then the loft and lie adjustments are up to you.

Mizuno irons seem to be 1/2 or 1* flatter than other manufacturers. I noticed that when switching from Callaway to Mizuno. The MP18 line is 1/2 degree flatter than the standard for the Callaways, so I hade to move them 1.5 degrees to get the same lie as the callaways instead of my normal 1.

[chriswelch93]

Golfinnut had a great graphic!

I also agree with jb0330 about the TXG video.

I highly recommend searching their YouTube channel for any fitting questions you might have, they probably have a video on it. They have also been testing different balls from the premium price point range recently and seeing how they compare. Careful though I've lost a few hours just watching 10 their videos in a row before because I have found them so interesting!