Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Tiger made the switch....maybe I should?


StrokerAce

Recommended Posts

...I'm not a great putter...I'm not even a very good putter.... I leave too many strokes out there due to my putting.

 

Eldrick was having issues with his Scotty blade and switched to a different style ... one with a higher MOI.

 

I need a higher MOI putter.

I don't want to spend any more than about 100.

 

I currently have my eye on a few #7 Odyssey's and I'm really interested in a Cleveland TFI 2135 Satin model.

I like that style - with the 'wings' on each side...

 

Anyone have a favorite high MOI putter that isn't a school bus on a stick?

 

I realize that this isn't a cure-all and there are a lot of other factors involved in putting besides MOI but, I'm a simple guy, and if I can get a little help with the equipment I can work on the other stuff.

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tommy Armour Impact #3

Ping Sigma G Tyne

Ping Vault Oslo

Ping Doon CB?

You can get the Pings from 2nd Swing in good condition for a good price.

 

All great putters my favorite is the Oslo.

 

I didn't think I was brand biased but now that I wrote this post I am rethinking that......

Wilson Staff C300 9.0* Fujikura Pro 58 stiff

Callaway Rogue 3W Mitsubishi Diamana D+ LTD 80 stiff

Mizuno MP-18 MMC FLI-HI 2 iron UST Mamiya Recoil 95 stiff

Ping I200's 4-W Aerotech Steelfiber I110 CW stiff

Ping Glide 52* and 58* stiff

Bettinardi Studio Stock #38 Armlock

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too have my eyes on the Cleveland tfi 2135 satin elevado. I also like the Cleveland Huntington Beach 11 and the odyssey o works v line fang. I just can't decide on which one to get.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cleveland Satin TFI Elevado is very sweet. If you do test them, try the Counter balanced, I have been very pleasantly surprised

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

What's in my  :cleveland-small: bag:

Driver :  :cobra-small: F9 10.5, Fujikura Speeder 757 TR 

Fairway  :cobra-small: F9 15.5° Aldila Rogue White 80X

Hybrid:  :cobra-small: King F7 18° KBS Tour PROTO Hybrid 95 S+

Irons:   :srixon-small: z585 4i - 6i,  z785 7i-PW, Nippon Modus 120X

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CBX  50.11, 55.11, 60.10  TT DG S400 Black

Putter:  post-53756-150768041262.jpg Honey Badger 34" 

Ball:  :srixon-small: Q-Star Tour

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stick with the #7. The wings are heavier than most fang putters, but the head is a workable size compared to a Doon or a Futura. Keeping it $100 is tough, but if you can, find an older model Works #7 (with metal face insert). These have a design defect where the face plate peels off. Odyssey replaces them for free with the new O-Works.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this sounds nuts but if you want to keep the cost down try to find an old Nickent (Pre or post Dicks Sporting Good purchase).

 

I still use my PP-001 and I have a newer model.

 

The newer model has a softer insert and adjustable heel and toe weights but the original has better alignment characteristics, in my opinion

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Callaway Big Bertha Fusion Heavy 10.5 closed face setting

Callaway Razor Fit 3 wood

Nickent 3 Hybrid

XR-OS 4i - 9i factory steel stiff 2 up +1

Ben Hogan 44,48,52,56

Nickent PP-01

Maxfli Tour Center of Gravity model

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suck at putting. I see you don't have a whole lot of time for practice, like me. What is your miss? Long, short, both? Reading the green the problem.

 

I used that putting app for 2 days and found out I was reading break backwards? For my entire life. So just 15-20 minutes of that app “instruction “ turned my putting from 0 to hero.

 

Maybe give that app a try Jason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...found a like new TFI 2135 satin counterbalance for 80 bucks.

 

If I can't make anything with this it might be time to hang it up...

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just ordered a brand new TFI satin elevado for $109.99 and I'm pumped

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Good luck to both of us!!

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suck at putting. I see you don't have a whole lot of time for practice, like me. What is your miss? Long, short, both? Reading the green the problem.

 

I used that putting app for 2 days and found out I was reading break backwards? For my entire life. So just 15-20 minutes of that app “instruction “ turned my putting from 0 to hero.

 

Maybe give that app a try Jason.

 

Thanks Alan... It depends on the green speed... if they're fast I'm usually long with a knee-knocker come backer and if they're slow it's the opposite.

I also am not too good at reading the line. Sounds like I should try the app.

Did see recently that Stockton suggests always reading the break from the low side and never the high side.

He also doesn't take a practice stroke.  Gets behind the ball, sees the line, walks in sets up and "pushes" it.. he never 'hits' a putt.

 

Thanks for the hint about the app ... I'll check it out.

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only take one practice swing, well I guess it's 3, like Bubba, I just noticed this the other day. 3 quick little practice swings. I've also tried to putt more like Rickie. A good little pop rather than a longer flowing one. I save those for the long ones. Anything inside 15 and I use a “compact” putter stroke. But remember I am no good at this part of the game. Right now is a Research and Development phase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Alan... It depends on the green speed... if they're fast I'm usually long with a knee-knocker come backer and if they're slow it's the opposite.

I also am not too good at reading the line. Sounds like I should try the app.

Did see recently that Stockton suggests always reading the break from the low side and never the high side.

He also doesn't take a practice stroke. Gets behind the ball, sees the line, walks in sets up and "pushes" it.. he never 'hits' a putt.

 

Thanks for the hint about the app ... I'll check it out.

I know this is a little off topic but...

 

This may not help but I would feel bad if this is your problem and I didn't say anything.

 

I have been having troubles with my putting lately and I finally figured out that I was strangling the grip. I relaxed my grip pressure and shaved 4-5 putts a round. I also allowed a little wrist flow with really relaxed hands. It certainly helped my speed.

I just wanted to see if this helps you. It may not but it is worth a try.

 

Good luck with the new putter.

Wilson Staff C300 9.0* Fujikura Pro 58 stiff

Callaway Rogue 3W Mitsubishi Diamana D+ LTD 80 stiff

Mizuno MP-18 MMC FLI-HI 2 iron UST Mamiya Recoil 95 stiff

Ping I200's 4-W Aerotech Steelfiber I110 CW stiff

Ping Glide 52* and 58* stiff

Bettinardi Studio Stock #38 Armlock

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're going to hate this answer but putter is the most important club to be fit for. But there's a cost of course.

 

So what I would suggest is that you find out what type of stroke you have - back and through or pendulum - then whether you are right or left eye dominant.

 

Once you know that PM an experienced equipment guy - Jaskanski Big Stu or Csnoil jump to mind - tell them what your swing type is and see what they say.

 

Choose the wrong putter and you will be forced to change your putting style to adapt to it.

 

I'm sure that all the putters mentioned here are great putters and they may well be the perfect fit for the person mentioning them. They may also be a train wreck for you.

 

Good luck - you could really save some strokes here

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're going to hate this answer but putter is the most important club to be fit for. But there's a cost of course.

 

So what I would suggest is that you find out what type of stroke you have - back and through or pendulum - then whether you are right or left eye dominant.

 

Once you know that PM an experienced equipment guy - Jaskanski Big Stu or Csnoil jump to mind - tell them what your swing type is and see what they say.

 

Choose the wrong putter and you will be forced to change your putting style to adapt to it.

 

I'm sure that all the putters mentioned here are great putters and they may well be the perfect fit for the person mentioning them. They may also be a train wreck for you.

 

Good luck - you could really save some strokes here

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Been there done that and I don't buy it... I hit maybe 8-10 putts on the SAM lab and they fit me into one of the least forgiving putters....

I bet if I went back today it'd be completely different.

sam_lab_stats.jpg

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been there done that and I don't buy it... I hit maybe 8-10 putts on the SAM lab and they fit me into one of the least forgiving putters....

I bet if I went back today it'd be completely different.

attachicon.gifsam_lab_stats.jpg

 

Interesting to see the information.   My instructor is big into Puttlab,  but doesn't go with the fitting module and prefers to see the detail reports that shows all the data.   

 

Looking at your report,  you position the ball way out on the toe at setup and basically hit it where you setup?   Stroke path doesn't look bad, you just are inconsistent in length.   You also really rotate the putter,  was that to prevent from missing right?  I am guessing you are now missing left with the closed face at impact?   The 2* left is just an average which is why it is best to see the face angle for all strokes.     

 

The putter recommendation  doesn't seem that bad.   Basically it is steering you away from a face balanced putter into something with a bit more loft and a bit more toe hang to slow down the rotation.   Did you try the putter they fit you into or did you just dismiss because you felt it wasn't forgiving?  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would add this, now you know what type of putter will work best for your stroke.

 

I wouldn't deviate from the type.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My best advice would be to try the putter they recommended.  You could always go to Golf Galaxy and/or Dick's and hit it for free.  No need to actually buy it first.  I had my eyes set on a Scotty when I first was looking at putters last year even though my fitting was telling me the Ping Oslo.  I hit them both side by side for hours noticing that the Oslo was giving me the best results each time. 

Driver: Callaway Rogue ST Max
3 Wood: Taylormade SIM
3 Utility Iron: Srixon U85
4i – 5i: Taylormade P790
6i – AW: Taylormade P770
SW: Taylormade MG3 TW Grind
LW: Taylormade Hi-Toe 3 Low Bounce
Putter: PXG Battle Ready One & Done

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stick with the #7. The wings are heavier than most fang putters, but the head is a workable size compared to a Doon or a Futura. Keeping it $100 is tough, but if you can, find an older model Works #7 (with metal face insert). These have a design defect where the face plate peels off. Odyssey replaces them for free with the new O-Works.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Do they send you a new face and you put it on or do you send the putter in?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 Atmos Blue 6S

 Atmos Red 7S
 Atmos Blue 8S
Apex CF19 4-AW C-Taper Lite S
SM7's RAW 50F - 54S - 58M - 62M

Nike 006 Paul Casey Proto (Oven)

Nike 006 Rory Proto (Oven)

Pro V1 / Z-Star

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do they send you a new face and you put it on or do you send the putter in?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

Odyssey does not sell the inserts.   You send in the putter and they send you a new one.  Since the O-Works is their latest line and they don't make the Metal-X anymore you get the latest model. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had my natural stroke checked by a pro and off course I had a slight arc. I switched to a slight arc Ping putter but i missed every putt. I used the Ping app and practiced as lot. My natural tendency was leaving the putter open at impact by 1 degree. I decided to try a center shafted putter from SC Futura Phantom 2. I got it off Ebay for 47 bucks. I am putting better than ever I routinely make putts of over 10 feet now I dont kmow why it works but I force my stroke to be straight back and straight through and my putting this year is the best of my life.

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using MyGolfSpy mobile app

"Obviously my iron play is incredible, and when I get going I can get hot, but this course just fits my eye. The shaping of the holes, and just a couple of the doglegs, I'm able to shape shots."

 Bryson DeChambeau

 

In my  :ping-small: Hoofer Lite

 

:srixon-small: Z765 9.5 with Miyazaka Kaula Mizu 6 Stiff Shaft (TrueGolfFit Recommended!!!)

:cobra-small: F8 3-4 wood 16* Aldilla Blue 70 Stiff shaft

:taylormade-small: Rescue mid 2 iron 16*

:cobra-small: One Length Forged Tec 4-GW with AMT Black shafts

:cameron-small: Futura Phantom 2

:bridgestone-small:Tour B330 RX

 

Like Bass Fishing? Check out my one and only article!!!

https://www.bassresource.com/beginner/get-started-bass-fishing.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have nothing to add, except I think this is a great thread - I always learn things in these types of threads.

Driver:  :callaway-small:Epic Speed 9* (set -1) MMT 70X
3W:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR Recoil 760ES
3H, 4H: :bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR 19*, 23* Recoil 780ES
4-AW:bridgestone-small: Tour B JGR HF2 Modus3 Tour 105
SW: :cleveland-small: RTX Zipcore Black Satin 54*
LW:Sub70: TAIII Black 58*
Putter:ping-small: Scottsdale TR Senita
Bag: BigMax Dri Active Lite
Ball:taylormade-small: TP5x or :titleist-small: AVX (yellow)
Pushcart: BigMax iQ+

Testing Complete, Final Review PostedSub70 TAIII Forged Wedges

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was also in this predicament. I love putting. just not very good. I hated the way mallets looked, but I decided to get over it. just two days ago I went to an Edwin watts store that had a ton of putters. looked at ping, tm, odyssey, even a used sc future 7m. fell in love with the Cleveland tfi 2135 satin elevado. the Huntington beach 11 is very similar to the elevado and it cheaper.

my wife loves her tommy armour impact #3.

have fun.

ksted

  • driver: Ping G410 plus
  • 3 wood: Ping G400
  • 5 wood: Ping G400
  • hybrid: Cobra F8
  • irons: Ping G400 4-gw
  • wedges: Ping G400 U 50, Cleveland RTX4 56, Zipcore 60
  • putter: Evnroll ER2
  • balls:  Srixon Q Star Tour/Titleist Tour Soft
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...well, the Elevado doesn't get here until tomorrow so I'm going old school with my TPMills Spalding blade for my league match this afternoon.  We'll see if club champion was right.... 

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting to see the information.   My instructor is big into Puttlab,  but doesn't go with the fitting module and prefers to see the detail reports that shows all the data.   

 

Looking at your report,  you position the ball way out on the toe at setup and basically hit it where you setup?   Stroke path doesn't look bad, you just are inconsistent in length.   You also really rotate the putter,  was that to prevent from missing right?  I am guessing you are now missing left with the closed face at impact?   The 2* left is just an average which is why it is best to see the face angle for all strokes.     

 

The putter recommendation  doesn't seem that bad.   Basically it is steering you away from a face balanced putter into something with a bit more loft and a bit more toe hang to slow down the rotation.   Did you try the putter they fit you into or did you just dismiss because you felt it wasn't forgiving?  

 

....they fit me into a 379.99 scotty cameron.  that kind of ticked me off right there.  there are a LOT of really nice blade putters and to be fit into one of the most expensive on the market was a little upsetting.... not to mention that I just paid 100 bucks to get a fitting.

 

After I got home and calmed down a bit I emailed and asked for some similar models and used an Odyssey #9 for a while.  I just felt that it wasn't "natural" and I had to manipulate it too much...

 

I might get an Odyssey White Hot RX #1 and test that against the Cleveland.  I hit that one when it first came out and really liked it.

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll take all the golf I can get. I don't do the instructional portions, but the replays, movies, EuropeanTour coverage early.

 

There is no such thing as too much golf. (Shh, don't tell my wife)

Use a blade to become a better putter. It's the old analogy- it's not the tools,it's the mechanic.

Let me explain with another analogy - driving a motorcycle. I strongly belive that everyone should drive a motorcycle first before using a car. For the simple reason that it makes you a better driver. How you ask? Well,for the following reasons:

1.It focuses you to be attentive

2. You learn to always look 2 vehicles ahead so that if something happens,you have more time to react.

3. You are more aware of what is happening around you.

4. You become more adept at handling situations.

5. You are aware of the ability of what your vehicle can and cannot do.

6. You can kick everyone's ass around a cloverleaf with a pick up truck because you learn how to use curves to your advantage - this is my favourite

 

Now getting back to a blade - You learn how to putt and not rely upon gimmicks. And it is the gimmicks that are made to hide the flaws we have.

 

Now having said that, I then went to a pallet and love it. First try a blade to see and identify your issues .This of course is a painstakingly slow process but the rewards will amaze you.

What's in my Mizuno BR-D2 bag

OFFICIAL TESTER FOR THE PING i500 CLUBS.

Currently playing Ping i500 w/ Alta CB graphite shafts 

  :mizuno-small: MP 25 - fitted w/ Project X shafts - stiff

  :titelist-small: 60  / 56  :mizuno-small: 52

  :titelist-small: 910 D2 driver - 9.5 degree -fitted13   F 3 wood 13.5 deg   :nike-small: CPR 3 hybrid

:nike-small: Method mallet

Dexterity:

I shoot left-handed so no one can ask me "Hey, can I try that club?" 

Twitter @GolfingHat      Instagram  @Mizunostixgolfnut

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use a blade to become a better putter. It's the old analogy- it's not the tools,it's the mechanic.

Let me explain with another analogy - driving a motorcycle. I strongly belive that everyone should drive a motorcycle first before using a car. For the simple reason that it makes you a better driver. How you ask? Well,for the following reasons:

1.It focuses you to be attentive

2. You learn to always look 2 vehicles ahead so that if something happens,you have more time to react.

3. You are more aware of what is happening around you.

4. You become more adept at handling situations.

5. You are aware of the ability of what your vehicle can and cannot do.

6. You can kick everyone's ass around a cloverleaf with a pick up truck because you learn how to use curves to your advantage - this is my favourite

 

Now getting back to a blade - You learn how to putt and not rely upon gimmicks.

 

Haha... I started riding a dirt bike when I was 7....does that count?

We used to go camping in the OR woods with a bunch of other ppl and ride dirt bikes all day.

 

My wife is vehemently against me getting a "donor-cycle".... :(

 

my dad was in a biker gang and used to park his Harley in the house.  He traded one of our cars for his first bike.

 

I rode on the back of my dad's Harley for a 1200 mile round trip when I was 10.

 

...all of this motorcycle stuff when I was younger and I still suck at putting.  :lol:

DriverCobra  Aerojet LS
Woods-
Cobra  LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*,  F9 24* 
Irons- XXIO X (6-A)

Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58)

Putter- Bettinardi BB56
Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad
Buggy- Clicgear 4.0
Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...