Hitting two balls

[golfusa99]

On a 375 yard par 4 a player hits his drive off a tree and rolls into the fairway and is 200 yards out. With water surrounding the green he lays up his 2nd shot 100 yards away but for fun hits another ball because he wants to see if he can reach the green This shot lands on the green 8 feet from the pin and declares he can take that shot as long as he takes a penalty stroke. So he picks up his ball in the middle of the fairway 100 yards out and proceeds up to the green and two putts for bogey. I tell him he can't do that and he tells me to show him the rule that says he can't. Can i get a ruling on this please?

[Mr. 82]

On a 375 yard par 4 a player hits his drive off a tree and rolls into the fairway and is 200 yards out. With water surrounding the green he lays up his 2nd shot 100 yards away but for fun hits another ball because he wants to see if he can reach the green This shot lands on the green 8 feet from the pin and declares he can take that shot as long as he takes a penalty stroke. So he picks up his ball in the middle of the fairway 100 yards out and proceeds up to the green and two putts for bogey. I tell him he can't do that and he tells me to show him the rule that says he can't. Can i get a ruling on this please?

Rule 15-1 and 15-2 cover this sort of nonsense. It's a 2-stroke penalty to play a substituted ball, as well as counting all of the strokes for every shot he hit. So tee shot, layup shot first first ball (2), dropped ball (3), substitute ball in play (4 & 5), 3rd shot on the green (6), two putts (8).

 

So his bogey is actually a quad, because not only do you incur the 2 stroke penalty for intentionally hitting a substitute ball, you also incur a 1 stroke penalty for dropping the ball at the place of where his drive ended up.

 

That's just my interpretation of the rules, but I've never had a situation like this come up in any serious competition. But I always try and remember that every intentional move of a golf ball is at least one stroke, which includes the penalty for dropping a second ball (a drop is always a stroke unless you get free relief from a cart path or man made obstruction, or GUR). But the two stroke penalty for playing a substitute ball is clearly written in the rules.

 

Side note - keep this rule in mind the next time one of your buddies has a ball they hit their shots with, and then decide to use a putting ball on the green. You have to finish the hole with the same ball you started the hole with, unless of course you lose it in the water, lost, or OB.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Sent from my coral using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[golfusa99]

Rule 15-1 and 15-2 cover this sort of nonsense. It's a 2-stroke penalty to play a substituted ball, as well as counting all of the strokes for every shot he hit. So tee shot, layup shot first first ball (2), dropped ball (3), substitute ball in play (4 & 5), 3rd shot on the green (6), two putts (8).

 

So his bogey is actually a quad, because not only do you incur the 2 stroke penalty for intentionally hitting a substitute ball, you also incur a 1 stroke penalty for dropping the ball at the place of where his drive ended up.

 

That's just my interpretation of the rules, but I've never had a situation like this come up in any serious competition. But I always try and remember that every intentional move of a golf ball is at least one stroke, which includes the penalty for dropping a second ball (a drop is always a stroke unless you get free relief from a cart path or man made obstruction, or GUR). But the two stroke penalty for playing a substitute ball is clearly written in the rules.

 

Side note - keep this rule in mind the next time one of your buddies has a ball they hit their shots with, and then decide to use a putting ball on the green. You have to finish the hole with the same ball you started the hole with, unless of course you lose it in the water, lost, or OB.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Sent from my coral using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Thank you for this explanation. By the way in the league i am in there are a few guys who use "putting balls". I call them out on it all the time but it falls on deaf ears.

[Kenny B]

I hit two good balls once... I stepped on a rake.  

[Colin L]

If he played the second ball from where he had played the first one with the intention of continuing the hole with that ball, he  proceeded under stroke and distance (Rule 27-1a), rendering the first one "lost".

 

But if, as it seems, his declared intention was just  to see if could reach the green, he did not intend the shot to count towards his completion of the hole, and I would see that as  a practice stroke with a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in match play (Rule 7-2).   In stroke play, he did not hole out with the correct ball and so is disqualified (Rule 3-2).

[Alf. S]

My definitions are under R&A but I think the USGA will be the same

1. Under rule 7-2 he is practising on the course = 2 shot penalty. 
2. The 2nd ball never becomes the ball in play i.e. the 2nd ball is classed as the "Wrong Ball"
   1. The 1st ball was never lost
3. Rule 15-3a then applies
   1. ​If he makes a stroke at the "Wrong Ball" it is a 2 stroke penalty
   2. If he completes the hole with the "Wrong Ball" and proceeds to tee off at the next hole he is disqualified 
   3. To complete the hole he must go back and play from the original spot that the 1st ball landed and this then becomes the "Ball in Play"

If you are playing Match Play claim the hole as soon as he plays the practise ball.

 

If it is a friendly game call him a cheating and claim the hole. 

[perseveringgolfer]

Thank you for this explanation. By the way in the league i am in there are a few guys who use "putting balls". I call them out on it all the time but it falls on deaf ears.

never come across this before. If I'm interpreting correctly are they hitting a ball to see the line and speed, then hitting their 'ball in play'?

 

If they are that's unbelievable and these guys need DQ'd and a 'talking to' from the group/secretary/rules official/committee/professional etc.

[cnosil]

never come across this before. If I'm interpreting correctly are they hitting a ball to see the line and speed, then hitting their 'ball in play'?

 

If they are that's unbelievable and these guys need DQ'd and a 'talking to' from the group/secretary/rules official/committee/professional etc.

They have a specific ball they putt with., they are not hitting 2 putts. They probably play a hard distance ball to the green and then substitute something softer to putt with.

[GB13]

They have a specific ball they putt with., they are not hitting 2 putts. They probably play a hard distance ball to the green and then substitute something softer to putt with.

Isn't that still a two stroke penalty for changing balls?

[cnosil]

Isn't that still a two stroke penalty for changing balls?

Officially yes it would be. Most people that play for fun would say it doesn't matter.

[Mr. 82]

If he played the second ball from where he had played the first one with the intention of continuing the hole with that ball, he  proceeded under stroke and distance (Rule 27-1a), rendering the first one "lost".

 

But if, as it seems, his declared intention was just  to see if could reach the green, he did not intend the shot to count towards his completion of the hole, and I would see that as  a practice stroke with a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play or loss of hole in match play (Rule 7-2).   In stroke play, he did not hole out with the correct ball and so is disqualified (Rule 3-2).

disqualified from what?  the entire round?  If this wasn't a tournament, and just a simple practice round, how do you score this?  And yeah, if he did this, he certainly can't count this round towards handicap.  Well, on second thought, let him take birdie on the hole if he wants to count it towards handicap.  The lower the score the better if there is no money on the line.  Those with a "glory handicap" are the guys I want to play against when money is on the line and you are counting every stroke and forced to putt everything out.

 

But unless this is a tournament, how can you DQ someone?  I play two balls all the time when I am practicing.  I just don't even keep score.

[bardle]

Officially yes it would be. Most people that play for fun would say it doesn't matter.

 

Yeah, I do this pretty much every round, and will do this as long as its not a competitive round. I just don't feel like losing the few Pro V's that have been given to me over tournament rules. Once I stop losing 3-5 balls a round, I'll play one ball for the entire hole.

 

What the dude did in OP's round however is complete trash. I play with guys all the time that take a second shot "just to see" but they don't ever play it, no matter how good it is. thats just lying to yourself. Whats the point...

[DaveP043]

Either way, he's penalized.  He's either practicing on the course, or he's playing the wrong ball.  He never announced his intention to substitute a ball until after he hit the "practice shot", so it can't be a substituted ball.  In strict terms, he'd lose the hole in match play, he'd be DQ in stroke play, because he never corrected his "mistake".  In friendly casual golf, its up to your group to figure it out.

[Colin L]

disqualified from what?  the entire round?  If this wasn't a tournament, and just a simple practice round, how do you score this?  And yeah, if he did this, he certainly can't count this round towards handicap.  Well, on second thought, let him take birdie on the hole if he wants to count it towards handicap.  The lower the score the better if there is no money on the line.  Those with a "glory handicap" are the guys I want to play against when money is on the line and you are counting every stroke and forced to putt everything out.

 

But unless this is a tournament, how can you DQ someone?  I play two balls all the time when I am practicing.  I just don't even keep score.

The OP ask for  "ruling" on what the player did, and so I gave him one according to the rules.  That's what I do in forums like this on the assumption that that's what people are asking for.

 

  A DQ is, of course, only relevant  in terms of a competition.  In a casual round, if you want to play within the rules and  keep a meaningful score, you wouldn't have a score for that hole if you did what he did.  In effect you would  disqualify yourself from having a proper total score, but that's a bit heavy for most of us, I'm sure, when we are just out for a bit of practice!

[DaveP043]

The OP ask for  "ruling" on what the player did, and so I gave him one according to the rules.  That's what I do in forums like this on the assumption that that's what people are asking for.

 

  A DQ is, of course, only relevant  in terms of a competition.  In a casual round, if you want to play within the rules and  keep a meaningful score, you wouldn't have a score for that hole if you did what he did.  In effect you would  disqualify yourself from having a proper total score, but that's a bit heavy for most of us, I'm sure, when we are just out for a bit of practice!

Guessing by his screen name, golfusa99, he lives someplace here in the USA.  Within the USGA handicap system, he can still post this score for handicap.  For the hole in question, a hole not played under the rules of golf, he should record par plus any handicap strokes he'd be allotted on that hole. I know this is a foreign concept to our friends in the CONGU system, but that's the way we do it here, at least for the next 17 months or so.

[HeathS16]

I hit two good balls once... I stepped on a rake.

How has nobody acknowledged this yet

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Colin L]

Guessing by his screen name, golfusa99, he lives someplace here in the USA.  Within the USGA handicap system, he can still post this score for handicap.  For the hole in question, a hole not played under the rules of golf, he should record par plus any handicap strokes he'd be allotted on that hole. I know this is a foreign concept to our friends in the CONGU system, but that's the way we do it here, at least for the next 17 months or so.

Understood.  But again, just to explain, I limit my answers to  the rules rather than handicapping and in those terms he does not have a score for that hole.  I stick to the rules  not least because  of  limitations in my knowledge of the USGA system!

[Alf. S]

On the point of putting with a different ball on the green in a competition this would again be classed as using the Wrong Ball. You must complete the hole with ball you started with (unless lost) and can only change the ball if it is badly damaged and agreed by fellow competitors. The same rules would apply that I previously stated.

[Alf. S]

If this guy was playing in one of our bounce games he would be resoundly put in his place in terms of rules and slagged for the rest of the round for being an absolute ar$e.

[Colin L]

On the point of putting with a different ball on the green in a competition this would again be classed as using the Wrong Ball. You must complete the hole with ball you started with (unless lost) and can only change the ball if it is badly damaged and agreed by fellow competitors. The same rules would apply that I previously stated.

  Because the "putting ball" would have been placed, it is  an improper substitution, a breach of Rule 15-2, not a wrong ball.  The same 2 stroke penalty but the outcome is different as the player has to continue to hole out with the substituted ball whereas after playing a wrong ball you have to go back and play the correct one.   

[DaveP043]

Understood.  But again, just to explain, I limit my answers to  the rules rather than handicapping and in those terms he does not have a score for that hole.  I stick to the rules  not least because  of  limitations in my knowledge of the USGA system!

You and I are on the same page about the appropriate penalties, and a meaningful score on that hole from a competition standpoint.  But when you mentioned a meaningful score for a casual round, it seemed appropriate to clarify the handicap posting implications for the OP, and for others in the USGA system.  We are required to post essentially all of our scores, even from casual rounds, and his behavior on this one hole does not mean he's not required to post his score for handicap.

[Alf. S]

  Because the "putting ball" would have been placed, it is  an improper substitution, a breach of Rule 15-2, not a wrong ball.  The same 2 stroke penalty but the outcome is different as the player has to continue to hole out with the substituted ball whereas after playing a wrong ball you have to go back and play the correct one.   

Aren't the rules wonderful

 

You're right. I think, so to be clear!!

 

Substitute ball is one that is change or replaced i.e. in the putting case. You mark the ball in play and place another ball down in its place it is a substitute and becomes the ball in play = 2 stroke penalty total.

 

Wrong Ball. In this case the guy has intentionally played a ball that is 100yds further up the fairway. In the case of Wrong Ball it never becomes the ball in play. Every time he makes a stroke with the wrong ball it is a 2 stroke penalty and DQ if he plays off the next tee without going back to the original spot the 1st ball landed and play from there.

[Colin L]

Aren't the rules wonderful

 

You're right. I think, so to be clear!!

 

Substitute ball is one that is change or replaced i.e. in the putting case. You mark the ball in play and place another ball down in its place it is a substitute and becomes the ball in play = 2 stroke penalty total.

 

Wrong Ball. In this case the guy has intentionally played a ball that is 100yds further up the fairway. In the case of Wrong Ball it never becomes the ball in play. Every time he makes a stroke with the wrong ball it is a 2 stroke penalty and DQ if he plays off the next tee without going back to the original spot the 1st ball landed and play from there.

 

That's right about a substituted ball:  it is any ball other than your original which you put into play by placing  or dropping.  If the Rules allow it, it is a legitimate substitution eg when taking a penalty drop for an unplayable ball.  If the Rules don't allow it  - as in the situation presented by the OP - it is an improper substitution with a 2 stroke penalty and you play out the hole with it.  

 

A  wrong ball is any ball other than your ball in play at which you make a stroke and you're right that it doesn't become the ball in play.  You're being a bit severe with the penalty, though.  It's a 2 stroke penalty but no strokes made with the wrong ball are counted.

 

To illustrate the difference, if I find a ball and think wrongly that it's mine and play it, I have played a wrong ball and 15-3 applies.  If I find a ball and think wrongly that it's mine, decide that it's unplayable and lift and drop it under the unplayable ball rule (28), i have made an improper substitution and 15-2 applies.

 

The Rules are wonderful, indeed! But when you get down to it, very precise.

[Mr. 82]

We are required to post essentially all of our scores, even from casual rounds, and his behavior on this one hole does not mean he's not required to post his score for handicap.

Not if you play as a single.  Can't post those.  Also, I can treat playing a few holes as total practice, and not posting for handicap purposes.  That's when I play two, three, or four balls, throw 5 balls in a bunker around a green and practice hitting these out.  Throw 6 or 7 balls in the pine straw/wood chips and practice hitting those to a certain green, all on multiple holes on my home courses, when no one else is around.

 

Also, my Tuesday evening scramble, which is captain's choice, I cannot post for handicap.  Hell, if I did post those scores I'd be like a +9 by now.  

[DaveP043]

Not if you play as a single.  Can't post those.  Also, I can treat playing a few holes as total practice, and not posting for handicap purposes.  That's when I play two, three, or four balls, throw 5 balls in a bunker around a green and practice hitting these out.  Throw 6 or 7 balls in the pine straw/wood chips and practice hitting those to a certain green, all on multiple holes on my home courses, when no one else is around.

 

Also, my Tuesday evening scramble, which is captain's choice, I cannot post for handicap.  Hell, if I did post those scores I'd be like a +9 by now.  

The OP wasn't playing as a single, he was playing with the guy who didn't know the rules.  The OP didn't mention anything about playing multiple balls as practice, or else hitting this one-time extra ball wouldn't stand out.  We ARE required to post ESSENTIALLY all of our scores, with some specific exceptions that you've mentioned.  Based on what the OP wrote, the rule-breaker would have been required to post that score, if he keeps a proper handicap.  

[Colin L]

........it seemed appropriate to clarify the handicap posting implications for the OP, and for others in the USGA system......

 

And quite right too.   Fills in the gaps in my knowledge and understanding which, when it comes to USGA handicapping, are uncomfortably large!

[MaxEntropy]

Last week in my league, I pulled a drive into some woods. My ball came to rest in a thicket of poison ivy. I took an unplayable lie, left the ball there, dropped a new ball (with the knowledge and agreement of my competitor), and counted to penalty. Honest question: should I have taken an additional penalty for changing out ball mid hole or does the "damaged ball" situation cover this?

[cnosil]

Last week in my league, I pulled a drive into some woods. My ball came to rest in a thicket of poison ivy. I took an unplayable lie, left the ball there, dropped a new ball (with the knowledge and agreement of my competitor), and counted to penalty. Honest question: should I have taken an additional penalty for changing out ball mid hole or does the "damaged ball" situation cover this?

Too bad you took a penalty. You were entitled to free relief under decision 1-4/10; dangerous situation. Pretty sure you can substitute a ball as You wouldn't have to get the ball back i it was a gator or rattlesnake.

 

Correction:  Poison ivy is not considered a dangerous situation and according to 1-4/11 no free relief.  

[Rickp]

Rule 15-1 and 15-2 cover this sort of nonsense. It's a 2-stroke penalty to play a substituted ball, as well as counting all of the strokes for every shot he hit. So tee shot, layup shot first first ball (2), dropped ball (3), substitute ball in play (4 & 5), 3rd shot on the green (6), two putts (8).

 

So his bogey is actually a quad, because not only do you incur the 2 stroke penalty for intentionally hitting a substitute ball, you also incur a 1 stroke penalty for dropping the ball at the place of where his drive ended up.

 

That's just my interpretation of the rules, but I've never had a situation like this come up in any serious competition. But I always try and remember that every intentional move of a golf ball is at least one stroke, which includes the penalty for dropping a second ball (a drop is always a stroke unless you get free relief from a cart path or man made obstruction, or GUR). But the two stroke penalty for playing a substitute ball is clearly written in the rules.

 

Side note - keep this rule in mind the next time one of your buddies has a ball they hit their shots with, and then decide to use a putting ball on the green. You have to finish the hole with the same ball you started the hole with, unless of course you lose it in the water, lost, or OB.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Sent from my coral using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Down here in “Senior world” stupid stuff happens often.

I've seen a guy on a Par 3 hit his Tee shot in the water. Second shot (3rd) goes in the hole and he declares a hole in one, Uh, nope. Nice Par.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[MaxEntropy]

Too bad you took a penalty. You were entitled to free relief under decision 1-4/10; dangerous situation. Pretty sure you can substitute a ball as You wouldn't have to get the ball back i it was a gator or rattlesnake.

 

Interesting. Thanks!

 

It would not have mattered on that particular hole. I played it as if I had never swung a club before - it was ugly. Good to know for future reference, though.