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Who Changed their swing and ruined their golf game


Gg Owen

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10 minutes ago, RoverRick said:

Let me correct this misstatement. You need the path that will let you reach impact with the club head accelerating as fast as possible on the right line and facing the right direction. No bonus points for just getting there fast.

I find that if I focus on the sequence of movement rather than the actual moves it works best for me.

 

I'm going to pick a small nit here.  You want ALL of your acceleration to occur before you hit the ball.  You want to hit the ball with the clubhead going its maximum speed.  If you're accelerating at impact, your peak speed will occur after contact, and you'll be wasting some of that speed.  Of course the right FEEL to get there for many people is to accelerate through impact, that's a feel that minimizes the probability that you'll actually be slowing down before the ball.

For @Tony Cayey, are you following up on the instruction that you took over the winter?  Have you been back to see that instructor?  If you're consistently hitting the middle of the face, its quite possible that you've made a significant improvement, and that improvement has exposed a different fault in your swing.  Most players, including me at a 5 handicap, have multiple things we can do better.  The best way to change is to fix the single most important fault, through instruction, drills, and practice, and then move on to the next most important fault.  You may need some instruction to define the next change you need to make.

Another possibility is that you've partially fixed something, but are backsliding into some bad habits.  That's another possibility where a "check-up" with an instructor can be valuable.

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:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

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5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm going to pick a small nit here.  You want ALL of your acceleration to occur before you hit the ball.  You want to hit the ball with the clubhead going its maximum speed.  If you're accelerating at impact, your peak speed will occur after contact, and you'll be wasting some of that speed.  Of course the right FEEL to get there for many people is to accelerate through impact, that's a feel that minimizes the probability that you'll actually be slowing down before the ball.

Bradley Hughes talk about this and says you your max speed is before you hit he ball you are actually slowing down and that there should just as much acceleration after impact as there was before.

 

 

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Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

Bradley Hughes talk about this and says you your max speed is before you hit he ball you are actually slowing down and that there should just as much acceleration after impact as there was before.

Huh?  If you are slowing down as you hit the ball, you are DEcellerating, and continue to decelerate through your follow through.  Do you have a reference for this?

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

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2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Huh?  If you are slowing down as you hit the ball, you are DEcellerating, and continue to decelerate through your follow through.  Do you have a reference for this?

See edited post with link to a video 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

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Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

See edited post with link to a video 

I agree with him entirely.  At around 0:50 he says his INTENT is to accelerate through and beyond the ball, but goes on to say "obviously its not going to happen like that".  A feeling of continuing to accelerate is positive, it stops most players from DEcellerating..

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Don’t want to thread jack here, and this is precisely part of the problem with taking lessons, differing opinions on what is actually happening during the swing and the “best” way to get there, but I said club head accelerating not reaching max speed.

Force = mass x acceleration

Not mass x speed but acceleration.

I often wondered about relationship between max speed and max acceleration in the golf swing and the effect of mass on it. I certainly do not have the time or equipment or, quite frankly, the skill to test this. I have some thoughts as related to putting on this but I am drifting far afield from the original intent.



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4 hours ago, RoverRick said:

Don’t want to thread jack here, and this is precisely part of the problem with taking lessons, differing opinions on what is actually happening during the swing and the “best” way to get there, but I said club head accelerating not reaching max speed.

Force = mass x acceleration

Not mass x speed but acceleration.

I often wondered about relationship between max speed and max acceleration in the golf swing and the effect of mass on it. I certainly do not have the time or equipment or, quite frankly, the skill to test this. I have some thoughts as related to putting on this but I am drifting far afield from the original intent.

Here's a simple relationship.  Maximum speed occurs when acceleration stops.  If something is accelerating, it is (by definition) increasing speed.  That's what acceleration is, increasing speed.  Kinetic energy, the energy available to be transmitted to something else, is 1/2 x mass x velocity squared.  With perfect conservation of energy, the kinetic energy of a clubhead immediately before impact is equal to the kinetic energy of the clubhead after impact (it always slows down due to impact) plus the kinetic energy of the ball after impact.  Clubhead speed not acceleration) is the primary variable in the kinetic energy of the clubhead, and the primary influence on the ball speed.  Here's a reference,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3362989/

  showing the proper kinematic sequence from K-Vest research.  Note that the clubhead speed (in yellow) is at a peak at impact, and decreases afterward.  Rotational velocity of other body parts peaks well before impact, first hips, then trunk, then arms.

And none of that makes the instruction in the video that @RickyBobby_PR linked any less valid.  He talks about his "intention" to accelerate well past the ball, to get the fastest part of his swing well past the ball.  That's a great image, a great feel for many many players.  

Edited by DaveP043

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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  • 7 months later...

Well. I will be 69 years old in Oct this year. I paid for 3 lessons from a local pro. The result was I felt lost trying the new swing. I then decided to quit the BS about lessons. So I concentrated on three basics. 1. Posture, 2. Minimized head rotation during swing and 3. A straight left hand (I am righthanded) with a little more body turn at the end if my swing.  And only one change to my clubs: Jumbo grips !  YOUR DREAMS OF HITTING LONG DRIVES IS YOUR WORST ENEMY. DRIVE STRIGHT DOWN THE FAIRWAY AND NO MORE THREE PUTTS, YOU WILL DISCOVER THE THRILLS OF ENJOYING YOUR BEST GOLF.

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  • 3 weeks later...

You must drink from as many wells as possible without granting others dominion over you. If you don't develop your own methodology, you'll be enslaved by someone else's. Stop out-sourcing your thinking and learning to others. The biggest determinant of who you are is YOU.

The golf swing is a complex, tightly-coupled, holistic system containing a host of inter-dependent and inter-related parts. No component in the golf swing -- or in any complex system - exists in isolation. It takes only one small glitch make a complex, tightly-coupled system dysfunctional. Unfortunately, the swing system is taught and learned anti-systemically (i.e. analytically). Analysis -- a divide and conquer mode of thinking -- separates the whole into parts. Synthesis -- a unifying  mode of thinking -- aggregates the parts into the whole. When you break-up a system by analyzing each part taken separately -- the system and all of its parts lose their identity.

Systemic thinking is simply a new, different and better way of viewing and solving complex problems.

For example, you can view a cow from a butcher's analytical perspective as separate chunks of meat.

However, you can also view a cow from a diary farmer's systemic perspective as a holistic milk-producing system.

The golf swing must be viewed and mastered a a power-producing, dynamic, holistic athletic system. 

Einstein said, "You can't solve a problem using the same mode of thinking that created the problem in the first place."

Golfers, who invoke the conventional and defunct analytical thinking of others -- rather than invoke their own systemic thinking -- will continue to stumble and fumble.

Dr. James Ragonnet/Author

YOUR INNER GOLF GURU: The Science of Rethinking, Relearning & Revamping Your Swing (Sky Horse Books/2010)

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/1/2021 at 11:57 AM, james ragonnet said:

You must drink from as many wells as possible without granting others dominion over you. If you don't develop your own methodology, you'll be enslaved by someone else's. Stop out-sourcing your thinking and learning to others. The biggest determinant of who you are is YOU.

The golf swing is a complex, tightly-coupled, holistic system containing a host of inter-dependent and inter-related parts. No component in the golf swing -- or in any complex system - exists in isolation. It takes only one small glitch make a complex, tightly-coupled system dysfunctional. Unfortunately, the swing system is taught and learned anti-systemically (i.e. analytically). Analysis -- a divide and conquer mode of thinking -- separates the whole into parts. Synthesis -- a unifying  mode of thinking -- aggregates the parts into the whole. When you break-up a system by analyzing each part taken separately -- the system and all of its parts lose their identity.

Systemic thinking is simply a new, different and better way of viewing and solving complex problems.

For example, you can view a cow from a butcher's analytical perspective as separate chunks of meat.

However, you can also view a cow from a diary farmer's systemic perspective as a holistic milk-producing system.

The golf swing must be viewed and mastered a a power-producing, dynamic, holistic athletic system. 

Einstein said, "You can't solve a problem using the same mode of thinking that created the problem in the first place."

Golfers, who invoke the conventional and defunct analytical thinking of others -- rather than invoke their own systemic thinking -- will continue to stumble and fumble.

Dr. James Ragonnet/Author

YOUR INNER GOLF GURU: The Science of Rethinking, Relearning & Revamping Your Swing (Sky Horse Books/2010)

This seems to me to be a lot of words without a lot of meaning.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Let's be honest...if you've played golf for any amount of time, this has happened to all of us at some point.  I constantly tinker with my swing.  I know I shouldn't, I should just keep the same swing but I guess I keep searching for that holy grail that just doesn't exist. 

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I'm in the process of working with a swing coach to improve my game.  While I'm striking the ball much better, I'm still making some errant shots that hurt me.  My short game comes and goes (more mental and trust issues than technique, I think).  Currently my handicap has gone up by 3 strokes, but I'm confident that it will return to previous numbers and hopefully lower.

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

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Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

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  • 4 weeks later...

Wasn't so much a change in my swing, as it was a change in my clubs to the Cobra One Lengths last Fall. Was at a 9 HC index at the time ... winter golf didn't help all that much, but my game was terrible and ballooned to an 18.9 HC as of 2 months ago. It got to the point where I would avoid approach shots into the green from 110 to 150 yards and not have to use my 9i down to GW. Simply could not get myself mentally past the longer length shafts in the lower scoring irons. 

Switched back to my previous irons and now I'm simply scoring and playing better ... HC is down to 16.2 and trending to 15.7 at the moment per The Grint. 

I do feel the Cobra OL affected my standard hybrid, 3W and Driver swings as well. Utilizing the 7i swing plane for most of the round, then switching to 3H was a significant feel, thought, setup and swing adjustment. 

Was happy to have tried the OL concept, but even happier to have abandoned the idea sooner that I thought I would. 

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Whenever I see threads like this, it reminds me of a story I heard about Bobby Clampett (I may be wrong on the name, or the details for that matter). The gist of what I had heard was that he subscribed to a theory that broke the swing down in to some ridiculous number of parts that had to all fit together perfectly for the swing to be effective and he was never the same after that.

That's about as much as I know, so I would love it if someone with more knowledge of the situation could add more details.

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First of all, let us be frank.  Do we really have anything worthwhile to be ruined ?  There are true examples of major tournament winners revamped their golf swing for the reason of more distance or to look "pretty" and never won another professional tournament again after the changes.  Most of these golfers were a "feel" golfer changing to a more mechanical golf swing, which put a stop to their instinct to score low, to win.  When they lost that edge and could not replace it with the mechanics of the golf swing.... they were done in the higher level of the competition tournament golf. 

If we don't have any meaningful golf swing to be lost, then we're probably in process of making our game better in the end ?  Right ?  

No lessons nor new magic golf equipment will give us a better golf game over night.  I had seen this over and over again.

Blaming the new lesson of ruining our golf game.  I get it, we need some kind of excuse for our golf game ( or lack of it ).  It's human nature to find excuse for our inability to excel.   But, take a moment and think back to the beginning of the time when we first took up the game .  How long did it take us to hit that 8 ( 7) iron decent ?  So, why would we expect to fit into our new golf swing immediately after the lessons ?

I know that it took me almost two full seasons to feel comfortable of changing my golf grip from an interlocked to an overlapping Vardon grip.  Took me a full season to learn how to hit a longer driver (47" and 48" ).  

The attitude these days for almost everything in life, demands instant gratification.  People don't want to work for their retirement, they want to invent some app in the garage and sell it for billions instantly.  Same with the golf game.

We all wish we could purchase a magic solution to our golf games from Amazon and when the box delivered to our front door, open it;  Walla !  like putting on a new shirt, changed our game over night.

After more than a few decades around this game.    I realized that part of the charm of it , is that we have to work at the game to be better at it.  It would not have attracted the kings and the Queens, the rich and the poor , people from all walks of life if it's as easy as bowling.  Not to knock down bowling because I also bowl.

If the changes, from lessons or self-taught, will eventually put us on the right track for a better golf game.  The temporary set back will be so much sweeter, when the changes paid dividends.

Byron Nelson gave the young Ken Venturi lessons to better his golf game, who gave Ken a warning of hard work will be expected before seeing the result.  Ken was mostly a self taught golfer before this, and his golf grip was one of the first thing that Mr. Nelson corrected for him to be more reliable under the tournament pressure.

It took Ken almost a full season to feel that he could own the new golf grip; and started to win again

Expectations ( reasonable expectations ), is at question here.

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