Match play rules infraction?

[Pickles]

Opponent while marking ball with left hand would lay his club on the green alongside his intended line with his right hand. So the putter head is 3 feet ahead of him and the shaft is along the ground. Is this illegal? NOT touching his intended line but right next to it. Thanks for any answers.

[Colin L]

Opponent while marking ball with left hand would lay his club on the green alongside his intended line with his right hand. So the putter head is 3 feet ahead of him and the shaft is along the ground. Is this illegal? NOT touching his intended line but right next to it. Thanks for any answers.

 

What would you say his purpose is in doing this?   Is he using the club to indicate his line of putt or is it  perhaps a way of balancing  himself  while marking or even a completely insignificant matter of the club happening  to be held like that while he marks with his other hand? It has to be somewhere!    It sounds to me as if it is most likely to be a casual action.

 

It would be a breach of Rule 8-2 only if he is using his club in this way to indicate his line of putt.  As he is not touching his line of putt, he is not in breach of Rule 16-1a.

[Pickles]

That's the question I am trying to figure out. He only does it on short putts and takes zero practice swings all day so taking extra time lining up his ball makes me wonder. I can't get in his head so I need to know if it's illegal or not.

[DaveP043]

He's not touching his intended line.  He's not leaving the club there to indicate his intended line.  He's not testing the surface.  The only potential infractions I can imagine would be if his putter left a mark in the dew, or somehow left a line to help his alignment. 

 

I suggest you take a look at the rules yourself to see if you can find some rule he may be breaking.  I suggest you start with Rule 16 - The Putting Green, and Rule - Lifting, Dropping and Placing, and Rule 8 - Advice and Indicating the Line of Play.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Can't see an issue with this. He's done nothing to his intended line and putter it club not there during his stroke

[Colin L]

That's the question I am trying to figure out. He only does it on short putts and takes zero practice swings all day so taking extra time lining up his ball makes me wonder. I can't get in his head so I need to know if it's illegal or not.

I'm now puzzled.  In what way does he  take extra time lining up his ball? Is the club on the ground while he lines up his putt? Does he adjust the club's position while reading his putt?

[Pickles]

The club is along the ground as he is lining his ball up but I didn't see him moving the club. He didn't take a practice swing or putt all day so it was strange to see him take time to line his ball up perfectly on the short putts.

[cnosil]

The club is along the ground as he is lining his ball up but I didn't see him moving the club. He didn't take a practice swing or putt all day so it was strange to see him take time to line his ball up perfectly on the short putts.

Could it be that he is more focused on speed for longer putts and not the line. But when he gets close enough he switches to more line focused and aligns his ball on the line to make the putt?

 

As for breaking the rules I don't think he is doing anything

Illegal for reasons others have stated.

[Pickles]

Could be. My problem is I don't know what he is thinking or why he is doing it. I emailed the USGA for a ruling. To me it's either legal or illegal. If I have to get into intent then to me it's ok because I can't know his intent. I'm not even sure what I will do if they say it was illegal.

[Colin L]

I had understood that he was just  putting his club on the ground whle marking his ball but if his club is on the ground  and pointing in the direction of the hole while he looks at and works out his line of putt it looks as if the alignment of the club is part of that process which would be a breach of 8-2 .

[DaveP043]

The club is along the ground as he is lining his ball up but I didn't see him moving the club. He didn't take a practice swing or putt all day so it was strange to see him take time to line his ball up perfectly on the short putts.

Are you saying that is club is on the ground as he is orienting the alignment line on his golf ball?  I've just re-read the Decisions on 8-2b (Indicating Line of Putt) and see nothing that wouldn't allow the putter to be laid there, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, and is picked up prior to making the stroke.  Again, I suggest you read the rules and decisions for yourself and see if you can find a rule that you think he may have breached.  I guarantee that you'll learn more by doing the research yourself.

Separately, if you do learn from the USGA that he's breaching a rule, I suggest that you mention it to him the next time he does it.  Do it after he tees off on the next hole, so that there's no chance to assess a penalty, but if he does it again, insist on applying the penalty.  I've done that a few times in matches, and my opponents were actually glad to learn more about the rules.  Of course, being prepared to show him the actual rule in the USGA Rules (you DO have that in your golf bag, right?) is a logical thing to do.

[cnosil]

Could be. My problem is I don't know what he is thinking or why he is doing it. I emailed the USGA for a ruling. To me it's either legal or illegal. If I have to get into intent then to me it's ok because I can't know his intent. I'm not even sure what I will do if they say it was illegal.

Shouldn't have to know why but you mentioned he did things differently and intent is often applied in a ruling.

 

I am pretty sure there is no infraction. It isn't touching the line of the putt, it is not testing the surface based on your description, it is removed prior to making the putt. I don't see a rule violation based on my reading of the rules and decisions. Would you be questioning if he laid it 4 feet away?

[RickyBobby_PR]

Shouldn't have to know why but you mentioned he did things differently and intent is often applied in a ruling.

 

I am pretty sure there is no infraction. It isn't touching the line of the putt, it is not testing the surface based on your description, it is removed prior to making the putt. I don't see a rule violation based on my reading of the rules and decisions. Would you be questioning if he laid it 4 feet away?

Pretty much my thought proces. Unless as stated he leaves a mark from the putter to use during the stroke or left the putter or another club there he is good...no different than laying a club down for alignment on the tee and then picking it up before making a stroke.

 

Sounds like op is searching for something not there

[Colin L]

Pretty much my thought proces. Unless as stated he leaves a mark from the putter to use during the stroke or left the putter or another club there he is good...no different than laying a club down for alignment on the tee and then picking it up before making a stroke.

 

Sounds like op is searching for something not there

I think you are overlooking the difference between  Rule 8-2[a]  and  8-2.   Anywhere other than on the putting green you are permitted by 8-2(a)  to lay a club down for alignment provided you pick it up before a stroke.  On the putting green, 8-2 prohibits touching the green anywhere while indicating the line of a putt.  If Pickles's opponent touches the green anywhere with his putter or anything else  for the purpose of indicating the line of putt, he is in breach of that rule.   It comes down to the question of what his purpose is in laying his putter down as he does, and that is question I would be asking him .

 

Think of all the professional caddies you have seen indicating an aiming point to their player - often with the flagstick.  Have you ever seen one touch the green even though, for example, they are beyond the hole?  They know Rule 8-2 !

[DaveP043]

I think you are overlooking the difference between  Rule 8-2[a]  and  8-2.   Anywhere other than on the putting green you are permitted by 8-2(a)  to lay a club down for alignment provided you pick it up before a stroke.  On the putting green, 8-2 prohibits touching the green anywhere while indicating the line of a putt.  If Pickles's opponent touches the green anywhere with his putter or anything else  for the purpose of indicating the line of putt, he is in breach of that rule.   It comes down to the question of what his purpose is in laying his putter down as he does, and that is question I would be asking him .

 

Think of all the professional caddies you have seen indicating an aiming point to their player - often with the flagstick.  Have you ever seen one touch the green even though, for example, they are beyond the hole?  They know Rule 8-2 !

I understand what you're getting at, and I'm not sure I understand from the OP whether this should be a breach.  If he lays the putter down carefully, parallel to his intended line, and uses the putter to align the line on the ball, then he's touched the ground while indicating the line of the putt.  That's a breach.  

 

The club is along the ground as he is lining his ball up but I didn't see him moving the club. He didn't take a practice swing or putt all day so it was strange to see him take time to line his ball up perfectly on the short putts.

This is what makes me think that the player isn't carefully setting the club down to indicate a specific line of play, he's not adjusting it.

[cnosil]

I think you are overlooking the difference between Rule 8-2[a] and 8-2. Anywhere other than on the putting green you are permitted by 8-2(a) to lay a club down for alignment provided you pick it up before a stroke. On the putting green, 8-2 prohibits touching the green anywhere while indicating the line of a putt. .

 

8-2 is about indicating line of play. When not on the green a caddie can tell a player to aim at a person. Or blade of grass. This is not allowed when putting.

 

 

8-2a/1 does not prohibit using a club for alignment on the green since it does not touch the green on the line of the putt or indicate the line of the putt or where to aim.

 

You can actually sole you putter in front of the ball as long as you don't press down. Nick price used to do this.

 

Now if the putt was a big breaking putt and the putter touched the line that ball would be rolling on it is a violation of rule 16.

 

Fun fact. In 2019 you can touch the line of the putt.

[DaveP043]

8-2 is about indicating line of play. When not on the green a caddie can tell a player to aim at a person. Or blade of grass. This is not allowed when putting.

 

 

8-2a/1 does not prohibit using a club for alignment on the green since it does not touch the green on the line of the putt or indicate the line of the putt or where to aim.

 

First, we can't look at 8-2a/1, that's for situations not on the putting green.

Second, some of this may have to do with the definition of "line of putt".  The definition specifically includes a reasonable distance to either side of the actual line.  I do think that if the club was laid down specifically parallel to the intended line, and close to the actual line, its a breach of 8-2b, because the club touched the green, and indicates the line.  I just can't tell from the OP's descriptions just how carefully the player laid the club down.

[RickyBobby_PR]

First, we can't look at 8-2a/1, that's for situations not on the putting green.

Second, some of this may have to do with the definition of "line of putt". The definition specifically includes a reasonable distance to either side of the actual line. I do think that if the club was laid down specifically parallel to the intended line, and close to the actual line, its a breach of 8-2b, because the club touched the green, and indicates the line. I just can't tell from the OP's descriptions just how carefully the player laid the club down.

That's where I'm at. It reads like he lays it down next to the line while he lines aligns the ball in a way so he isn't holfing the putter at the time of trying to align the ball and not using it for alignment aid

[Colin L]

That's where I'm at. It reads like he lays it down next to the line while he lines aligns the ball in a way so he isn't holfing the putter at the time of trying to align the ball and not using it for alignment aid

 

It doesn't matter whether he is holding his putter or not.   If he lays it anywhere on the putting green to indicate his line of putt, no matter how far away from that line of putt it is, that is a breach.  

 

8-2 is about indicating line of play. When not on the green a caddie can tell a player to aim at a person. Or blade of grass. This is not allowed when putting.

 

 

8-2a/1 does not prohibit using a club for alignment on the green since it does not touch the green on the line of the putt or indicate the line of the putt or where to aim.

 

You can actually sole you putter in front of the ball as long as you don't press down. Nick price used to do this.

 

Now if the putt was a big breaking putt and the putter touched the line that ball would be rolling on it is a violation of rule 16.

 

Fun fact. In 2019 you can touch the line of the putt.

 

The question raised by this player has nothing to do with Rule 16.  The OP is quite clear that the putter is not placed on the line of putt.  

 

As I said, however, Rule 8-2[b] prohibits touching the green anywhere in order to indicate the line of putt.  That's the applicable rule here.

 

Your caddy could, by the way, tell you to aim at a person on the putting green if that person was there in the first place.  He could not, however,  position himself or anyone else and then tell you to aim at him or them. And he could do nothing about it if the person happened to move before you lined up on him.    Similarly, he can tell  you to aim your putt at a blade of grass or any other feature that is already there - a pitch mark,  a blemish on the green, a loose impediment, another player's ball or marker.......

[Colin L]

Nothing to add!  Managed to make another  posting quoting myself 

[cnosil]

Yeah, misread the rules. Too

Complicated. I still say no rule violation.

[revkev]

Are you saying that is club is on the ground as he is orienting the alignment line on his golf ball? I've just re-read the Decisions on 8-2b (Indicating Line of Putt) and see nothing that wouldn't allow the putter to be laid there, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, and is picked up prior to making the stroke. Again, I suggest you read the rules and decisions for yourself and see if you can find a rule that you think he may have breached. I guarantee that you'll learn more by doing the research yourself.

Separately, if you do learn from the USGA that he's breaching a rule, I suggest that you mention it to him the next time he does it. Do it after he tees off on the next hole, so that there's no chance to assess a penalty, but if he does it again, insist on applying the penalty. I've done that a few times in matches, and my opponents were actually glad to learn more about the rules. Of course, being prepared to show him the actual rule in the USGA Rules (you DO have that in your golf bag, right?) is a logical thing to do.

I have mine on my phone! But has the USGA deemed the use of the phone to look up the rules illegal?

 

Just kidding of course.

 

I suspect it's not illegal but I could be wrong.

 

 

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[MaxEntropy]

Ive been following this thread closely because I always learn something. Maybe it's just me, but this thread is a perfect illustration that the rules are overly convoluted. Even if he were intentionally using the putter for alignment, I don't really see what benefit he would get. What am I not considering?

 

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[Pickles]

Let me clarify because I might be confusing some people. His ball is marked.

As he adjusts his ball imagine a straight line being drawn to the hole from his ball.

His putter in his right hand is on the ground PARALLEL to the imaginary line from the ball to the hole.

I I

So not ON the intended line but showing the potential line.

[GB13]

Let me clarify because I might be confusing some people. His ball is marked.

As he adjusts his ball imagine a straight line being drawn to the hole from his ball.

His putter in his right hand is on the ground PARALLEL to the imaginary line from the ball to the hole.

I I

So not ON the intended line but showing the potential line.

It is nearly impossible to prove intent. If you can't prove the intent is to show the line, there is no applicable penalty. Only he knows the intent so he would have to call the penalty on himself.

[gaussman1]

I think no violation as using the putter head as a line parallel to the line of play does not automatically indicate the line of play. This is an excellent question and I wouldn't be surprised by either answer.

[Colin L]

I think no violation as using the putter head as a line parallel to the line of play does not automatically indicate the line of play. This is an excellent question and I wouldn't be surprised by either answer.

To be very pernickety I'd suggest that anything lying parallel to the line of play must indicate the line of play. It cannot do otherwise.  It keeps coming back round to whether the player put it there deliberately.   Doing it as a regular feature of his putting process is something of a hint that he did but if he said it was done accidentally,  I'd accept that but expect his acceptance in return  that if  he had the same accident again I would penalise him.

[gaussman1]

To be very pernickety I'd suggest that anything lying parallel to the line of play must indicate the line of play. It cannot do otherwise. It keeps coming back round to whether the player put it there deliberately. Doing it as a regular feature of his putting process is something of a hint that he did but if he said it was done accidentally, I'd accept that but expect his acceptance in return that if he had the same accident again I would penalise him.

It's an interesting question isn't it? I guess it boils down to how they define "Indicate". If that means to point at directly then I think no violation. If that means to touch anything else off the line of play to help orient to the line of play then I agree with you that it's a penalty

[cnosil]

The key would be to prove intent. On breaking putts, did he lay the putter down parallel to the line the ball would travel on or to the line between himself and the hole. I am also assuming the putter was in front of the ball and the grip was by the ball

[bens197]

Clever bastard.

 

He knows what he's doing.

 

 

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